Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - Wordle Gummidge

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

Ah for fucks sake Hitch. I was actually thinking of going for a few pints with you on Friday. "going softly"

I'm not the despotic regime here! They clearly went in with a strategy of a quick win, minimise carnage to minimise sanctions. So not for a good reason, but for minimising the hit to their reputation on the international scene, while still taking over the country. That was then interpreted as Russian military weakness, so everyone started sending weapons into Ukraine. I don't think that was a smart strategy in terms of protecting the Ukrainians, as all it does is create false confidence against overwhelming force.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

Jesus Hitch, that's a shitty take.

What was the West to do, let him at it? Ignore Ukrainian pleas?

I don't see how more weapons is going to do anything except create more death. Retreating, rather than attacking, in the face of overwhelming force is not 'a shitty take', its one of the oldest military maxims.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

Sounds like Hitch wants Russia to complete the hostile takeover.

As soon as Russia decided to invade, they had already de facto completed the hostile takeover, given their military power.

My concern is that it might turn into some sort of Vietnam, Afghanistan permanent-war nightmare now.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

I see all these people talking about going back to Ukraine to fight and think - you poor brave fuckers. We shouldn't be encouraging people like that. Its unwinnable militarily, even if its broadly agreed to be winnable in hearts and minds. The fight shouldn't be now, it should be after the battle, in terms of guerilla war. Right now, by arming and encouraging fighting, the reality is that all we are doing is creating more death.

[Strewelpeter]

Johnson and Patel's mealy mouthed response to appeals to allowing Ukranians into the UK is really pathetic.

[Strewelpeter]

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[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

Johnson and Patel's mealy mouthed response to appeals to allowing Ukranians into the UK is really pathetic.

They just can't get past their systematic racism.

Ukrainians can come to Ireland with no hassle, yeah? given the waiving of visa requirements?

[coillcam]

Ah Hitch, come on now. The West could have been sending in $1billion in nappies as aid and Ukraine still gets pummelled. Putin can frame it whatever way he wants but plan B was always to make Ukraine look like the surface of the moon if they resisted. I still can't figure out if the RU army actually prepared properly and believed they were to be deployed at all. It just looks like a disorganized shambles from the ground forces. I think they genuinely believed Ukraine would bend over after a couple of days of posturing in the occupied territories. They've enough power at range and aerial dominance to erase Ukraine from the map without setting foot in the country.

[Solksjaer!]

How close are we to Cuban missile crises times ? Russia has threatened nuclear escalation , so if they take Ukraine they will play that card each time . Its declicate but if i was a western leader id demand clarification on that threat even though it may seem obvious . This is too big is a deal . The other so called Superpowers need to nip this talk in the bud . Russia clearly destabilised the US these past few years its time for the west to 'advise' Russia to take the power away from that psycho. All it takes is one brave soul akin to the Ukrainians. Boom . A big step.

[coillcam]

Johnson and Patel's mealy mouthed response to appeals to allowing Ukranians into the UK is really pathetic.

It's not like the cunts ever tried to hide their cuntishness in the first place. Just awful people.

[Strewelpeter]

They just can't get past their systematic racism.

Ukrainians can come to Ireland with no hassle, yeah? given the waiving of visa requirements?

Yeah, up until last week there was a visa requirement because of us being outside Schengen. We were a bit slow in droping the restrictions which contributed to many Irish citizens being a bit slow about getting their Ukrainian extended families out in the last few weeks.

[Micknail]

As soon as Russia decided to invade, they had already de facto completed the hostile takeover, given their military power.

My concern is that it might turn into some sort of Vietnam, Afghanistan permanent-war nightmare now.

So basically if Vlad wants Finland next, they should just bend over, and so on, and so forth

[coillcam]

So Russia is eventually going to turn into North Korea 2.0 here right? Is there any other endgame here unless Vlad gets removed in some way?

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

So basically if Vlad wants Finland next, they should just bend over, and so on, and so forth

You are dealing in a bigger picture there, and maybe wanting Ukraine to fight on future countries behalf. I'm just looking at Ukraine and thinking, a fully fought war there will be carnage and we shouldn't be encouraging people to die for the future sake of Finland, etc.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

Ah Hitch, come on now. The West could have been sending in $1billion in nappies as aid and Ukraine still gets pummelled. Putin can frame it whatever way he wants but plan B was always to make Ukraine look like the surface of the moon if they resisted. I still can't figure out if the RU army actually prepared properly and believed they were to be deployed at all. It just looks like a disorganized shambles from the ground forces. I think they genuinely believed Ukraine would bend over after a couple of days of posturing in the occupied territories. They've enough power at range and aerial dominance to erase Ukraine from the map without setting foot in the country.

That's a grand way of putting it. Just though that the specific argument that Russia was ratcheting up as the initial invasion wasn't a walkover, was a point made specifically by the Sky News defence journalist. So they have also identified a change in Russian strategy, in the face of fighting.

I'm not saying it's not natural to want to fight. But the fight was always lost. All these more weapons from the West do right now is make the fighting more destructive and deadly. And indeed those weapons will eventually become Russian weapons, when the battle is over.

[Degag]

You are dealing in a bigger picture there, and maybe wanting Ukraine to fight on future countries behalf. I'm just looking at Ukraine and thinking, a fully fought war there will be carnage and we shouldn't be encouraging people to die for the future sake of Finland, etc.

So when does it become acceptable to fight? When he moves on Finland or on NATO countries?

As others have said i think it's a ridiculously bad take. Basically roll over to the fucker. You might be right, there might be catastrophic casualties but we can't allow an evil dictator just do what he wants, can we?

[Degag]

But the fight was always lost.

Why do you think the fight is definitively lost? Seems rather pre-emptive.

[Micknail]

Belarus looks wonderful under Russian control, can't believe Ukraine don't want the exact same.

[CHDad]

Hitch strikes me as the kind of guy who would leg it if his 5 year old was punched by the 5 year old bully in the playground.

[dobby]

You are dealing in a bigger picture there, and maybe wanting Ukraine to fight on future countries behalf. I'm just looking at Ukraine and thinking, a fully fought war there will be carnage and we shouldn't be encouraging people to die for the future sake of Finland, etc.

They're not fighting for the future sake of any other country apart from their own.

The alternative is give up, leave and let the Russians take over. Fuck that and fair play to every single person who stayed and didnt run.

I'd imagine anyone who did stay to fight has made their peace with death already. Especially the lads leaving on a 25 quid Ryanair flight to go and help to defend their country.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

There's clearly a popular mood in the opposite direction to mine.

I feel its the mistake of every past proxy war, where the battle is taking place in one country, but really the war is between two bigger forces (examples being Vietnam, Afghanistan during Russian reign, Korea, Yemen, some South American wars also) - that the country where the battleground takes place would clearly have benefited from not having had things escalate by the interested parties on both sides.

But maybe we can see why these things do escalate also - everyone cheering from the sidelines for more fighting.

More weapons won't help the country itself in its specific battle, and the countries giving them fundamentally know that even if I think the European side at least is well-meaning, all more weapons do is help to prolong the proxy war, at the expense of the affected country.

Maybe there's a previous war like this, that shows that what I am saying is wrong? Or are we having to assume that this time is different?

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

And we even have the first hand experience of CC, the first person to disagree with my original post, from his days in Nicaragua. Did that country benefit from more arms flowing in from both sides? Nicaragua is still a basket case. Escalation gives no benefits.

[dobby]

There would be no war if Russia didnt invade Ukraine. If they decided to leave tomorrow, that's the war over. If Ukraine give up tomorrow, that's their country gone.

They're doing what any country would do, defending themselves. Other countries contributing to their arms is not "everyone cheering from the sidelines for more fighting", it's a country in desperate need of help to defend itself.

Russia hold all the power to stop this war by just pulling out of Ukraine.

[Solksjaer!]

There's clearly a popular mood in the opposite direction to mine.

I feel its the mistake of every past proxy war, where the battle is taking place in one country, but really the war is between two bigger forces (examples being Vietnam, Afghanistan during Russian reign, Korea, Yemen, some South American wars also) - that the country where the battleground takes place would clearly have benefited from not having had things escalate by the interested parties on both sides.

But maybe we can see why these things do escalate also - everyone cheering from the sidelines for more fighting.

More weapons won't help the country itself in its specific battle, and the countries giving them fundamentally know that even if I think the European side at least is well-meaning, all more weapons do is help to prolong the proxy war, at the expense of the affected country.

Maybe there's a previous war like this, that shows that what I am saying is wrong? Or are we having to assume that this time is different?

If Russia had zero nuclear weapons . Where would we be now ?

The clear nuclear threat is what is different .

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

So when does it become acceptable to fight? When he moves on Finland or on NATO countries?

As others have said i think it's a ridiculously bad take. Basically roll over to the fucker. You might be right, there might be catastrophic casualties but we can't allow an evil dictator just do what he wants, can we?

It's always acceptable to fight. It's clearly heroic and amazing bravery. But is it a good idea to fight is another matter.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

If Russia had zero nuclear weapons . Where would we be now ?

The clear nuclear threat is what is different .

Well nuclear threats from Russia / USSR have been a factor in world proxy battles for a very long time!

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

This war is being won, very clearly, by the sides against Russia.

The sanctions are what are winning it. That's the pain.

The carving of Russia out of a world role. That's the pain.

We don't also need to help Ukrainians to kill themselves by giving them weapons that encourage them to fight a battle they can't win.

That's what actually gives Russia domestic power. It gives them the storyline they can tell at home - that American weapons are killing Russians. It supports domestic propaganda that Ukraine is a US plaything, and therefore supports the Russian regime.

We need to be smarter at this. We don't need another proxy battleground where the local innocents are the victims. If we are truly interested in the welfare of Ukrainians.

[Micknail]

We'd be British now if Hitch was in Ireland 100 years ago.
Maybe Vlad would leave Ukraine have home rule?
Maybe he sticks in a puppet dictator?

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

We'd be British now if Hitch was in Ireland 100 years ago.
Maybe Vlad would leave Ukraine have home rule?
Maybe he sticks in a puppet dictator?

Are you confusing the end of the British-Irish war with the beginning of the war 800 years before that? How did it work out with resisting the initial invasion?

[Raoul Duke III]

Seems the dumbass decision to fill Ukraine with weapons is paying off exactly as expected, with Russia significantly upping the ante in terms of carnage in response.

This is not victim-blaming, the Ukrainians are completely innocent.

But it is blaming the West a bit. It was quite clear that Russia was going softly initially to minimise bad headlines, if that was ever possible - maybe to their odd minds it was - instead the West has turned it into an all-out war. Making Ukraine even more of a victim in order for the West to fight a pseudo-battle on their territory with Western weapons.

Will we ever learn the basic fucking lessons of history.


As the Sky News (in fairness to them, they are brilliant at actual war coverage) correspondent notes:

Mick Wallace has hijacked Hitch's account

[Raoul Duke III]

Will we ever learn the basic fucking lessons of history.

You obviously haven't.

[Hectorjelly]

Hitch didn't even learn the lesson of last week!

[RichieM]

As soon as Russia decided to invade, they had already de facto completed the hostile takeover, given their military power.

My concern is that it might turn into some sort of Vietnam, Afghanistan permanent-war nightmare now.

In both cases the invaders were ultimately defeated and left. I think that’s what the people of the Ukraine are going for.

[RichieM]

This war is being won, very clearly, by the sides against Russia.

The sanctions are what are winning it. That's the pain.

The carving of Russia out of a world role. That's the pain.

We don't also need to help Ukrainians to kill themselves by giving them weapons that encourage them to fight a battle they can't win.

That's what actually gives Russia domestic power. It gives them the storyline they can tell at home - that American weapons are killing Russians. It supports domestic propaganda that Ukraine is a US plaything, and therefore supports the Russian regime.

We need to be smarter at this. We don't need another proxy battleground where the local innocents are the victims. If we are truly interested in the welfare of Ukrainians.

I think you are wrong on this.

Sanctions alone allow Vlad to claim victory and blame the west for their economic troubles - propaganda machine spins it into a tighter grip.

Sanctions cripple the economy, body bags on Twitter and failure to take the Ukraine. Army pushes back, mothers of dead soldiers in the streets and the propaganda looks obviously like lies - Vlad gets removed.

[Raoul Duke III]

Hitch has gone full jbravado.

Quite the sight.

[Solksjaer!]

TL DR etc.

SPOILER

The usual war horror stories of basically kids on both sides is galling to read at times. The Russian children in Uniform dying doing the bidding of that evil bastard is just as harrowing as the Ukrainian boys and girls going to their own slaughter albeit for a more noble cause. There is so much ethnic commonality between both countries that’s somehow makes it more tragic that they would inflict such damage on one another. I do clutch onto the romantic notion that somehow the people themselves will realise in their growing numbers that THIS is not a route to take in 2022. Killing your neighbour should belong in the past. (if anywhere) Blindly following a leader who considers your welfare to be collateral damage in a crusade to redefine their futures based on how it conforms to the EGO of a small set of elites.



The world (via the much criticised Social Media) is a lot smaller these days, we have exposure to more cultures than ever, even to their own living room and bedrooms, making it obvious to those with a heart/brain that we are basically all the same with the differences forced on us by the small group of elites , be it politically of religiously motivated. Perhaps Putin will unite the world , perhaps the pictures and stories of this beamed onto your phones will change things for the better , perhaps our children will refuse to die for causes that only serve the elites . Perhaps. Its up to us 'the people' to reshape the future not old rich men

[DeadParrot]

that seems significant

[Solksjaer!]

that seems significant

I love thats its companies making these decisions not countries .

[Solksjaer!]

Lets get creative Ukraine

[DeadParrot]

[Wombatman]

Women who are being raped shouldn't fight back. They are only provoking a justifiable beating too.

[Hectorjelly]

Women who are being raped shouldn't fight back. They are only provoking a justifiable beating too.

The real culprit of WW2 was England, continuing to fight on when Europe had clearly lost to Germany. Think how many lives they could have saved by immediately surrendering once France fell.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

So we've switched from decrying the war, to thinking we want more, and more destructive, warring.

[Hectorjelly]

No one has ever suggested countries shouldn't defend themselves. I don't know quite how you made that leap.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

Women who are being raped shouldn't fight back. They are only provoking a justifiable beating too.

You don't need to use analogies. We have the actual war itself that you can refer to. Why is a deepening of the war there a good idea?

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

This is not about, even a tiny bit, blaming Ukraine. Their response is natural and heroic. I never suggested otherwise, in any direct or insinuated way. The blame lies solely with Russia, who started this.

I just don't think that the West arming Ukraine to fight a battle they can't win, leads to anything other than more bloodshed. We have many examples of this throughout history, and no examples where more armaments leads to less bloodshed.

[Hectorjelly]

Do you really need the counterargument spelt out to you?

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

Do you really need the counterargument spelt out to you?

It has been spelled out. I just don't agree with it. But you have the entire gamut of history to draw on to enlighten me as to how more weapons against overwhelming force is a good thing.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

jesus, Paddy Power is an absolute beast of a company.

Paddy Power owner Flutter Entertainment saw its revenue increase 37pc last year to £6bn (€7.2bn), benefiting from the May 2020 combination with The Stars Group, according to annual results.

[RichieM]

It has been spelled out. I just don't agree with it. But you have the entire gamut of history to draw on to enlighten me as to how more weapons against overwhelming force is a good thing.

History has plenty of examples of it working including a few for Russia on both sides of the coin.

The Ukraine has military service so they have a lot of people who are trained. In terms of numbers of combatants it’s not as one sided as you expect in a ground war.

A lot of bloodshed ahead but a fair bit of it will be Russian too. The average trooper on the ground might not be too keen on shelling civilians over time.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

History has plenty of examples of it working including a few for Russia on both sides of the coin.

The Ukraine has military service so they have a lot of people who are trained. In terms of numbers of combatants it’s not as one sided as you expect in a ground war.

A lot of bloodshed ahead but a fair bit of it will be Russian too. The average trooper on the ground might not be too keen on shelling civilians over time.

I think the 'overwhelming force' is more on the air superiority than the ground troops, and that seems to be the deciding factor in many recent wars. Hence that column of Russian tanks being able to make their way largely unimpeded from Belarus to Kyiv.

There will be carnage on both sides. But that one dead Russian for every dead Ukrainian, fundamentally doesn't help that Ukrainian to be undead.

[hotspur]

We have many examples of this throughout history, and no examples where more armaments leads to less bloodshed.

You really need to stop thinking that less bloodshed is the only important goal when standing up to a tyrant.

[Raoul Duke III]

You really need to stop thinking that less bloodshed is the only important goal when standing up to a tyrant.

I genuinely think Hitch needs to step away from the keyboard and take a deep breath. He's miles off the reservation.

I thought it was funny for a while, until it wasn't.

[Mellor]

Still have an original NES here with a few games and most importantly the orange zapper.
Might have been worth a bit but maybe the emulator boxes have quashed that.

Come to think of it, not sure would it even connect to a modern flat screen now.

NES will connect no problem to any TV with an antenna (RF) input. Despite being a 100 years old, it’s still a main stay of modern TV inputs.
The Zapper won’t work though. Needs aCRT afaik

[Raoul Duke III]

Zelensky's address to the EU Parliament right now.

Unbelievably powerful.

[Iago]

in every fight against a bully that ever occurred, winning is one of the least important things. I grant you there's a universe of difference between coming out with a bloody nose in the playground and wholesale slaughter in a country but the fundamental point remains the same.

Appeasement is never a solution, at best it's kicking a can down the road (see crimea, donbass for recent examples) So if we discard appeasement and stick to just sanctions, what happens?

We are complicit in a nation being overthrown and X number of people being simply disappeared. Whatsmore it emboldens the bully even more, why not eye up Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia. Why not threaten Finland & Sweden..why not take everything in front of you.

Sending armaments is the same thing as sending non military aid. In both cases it delays the Russian victory and in Putins head it represents the same thing, forces conspiring against them.

The right time to stand up to bullies is always now. The right place is always wherever they are now. The cost paid is always less than the cost over time of leaving them to run riot.

[Tar.Aldarion]

I think the 'overwhelming force' is more on the air superiority than the ground troops, and that seems to be the deciding factor in many recent wars. Hence that column of Russian tanks being able to make their way largely unimpeded from Belarus to Kyiv.

There will be carnage on both sides. But that one dead Russian for every dead Ukrainian, fundamentally doesn't help that Ukrainian to be undead.

Russia still don't have air superiority in Ukraine and are getting droned by slow rotor propelled things due to it, very easy to shoot down had Russia superiority. The reason that the column has not been dealt with is Ukraine are picking and choosing what to do as it is harder for them to replace aircraft than for Russia, the tanks moved 3km in 24 hours and have more anti air defenses , it's not a convoy it's a traffic jam, and they've been bombing other things, that don't have the same anti air weaponry supporting it.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

You really need to stop thinking that less bloodshed is the only important goal when standing up to a tyrant.

I'd suggest its one of the priority goals.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

Walked into a shop there without a mask. It kinda felt wrong. Not least as the person behind the deli counter was wearing her mask. Are we all maskless now?

[RichieM]

Walked into a shop there without a mask. It kinda felt wrong. Not least as the person behind the deli counter was wearing her mask. Are we all maskless now?

Hope they keep them for deli people tbh.

Maskless most places but wore one on the train in to work - will probably keep it for public transport. People are gross after all.