Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - It's the end of the world as we know it

[Raoul Duke III]

There could be opportunities, after a period of calm and with a new Israeli government in place the whole landscape will have changed. Palestinians are going to have to find some leadership and better friends in the quieter period.

That would be ideal but hard to see at the moment.
The plan (certainly based on what the US has been saying) is, that once the IDF retreats from the wreckage of Gaza, that the Palestinian Authority would assume control. This seems wholly unrealistic as the PA is weak and totally corrupt - most polls indicate that Hamas is the most popular movement among Palestinians in both the West Bank and Gaza.
So there is a vacuum of leadership and no real options on the horizon. There's no sign of a Palestinian Mandela or John Hume.
In addition, Iran has its proxy armies very firmly in place and hard to see that changing, even if Hamas's infrastructure gets blown to smithereens.

The thing that seems to be lacking is leadership from the wider Arab world. Saudi Arabia, Qatar and the UAE could pay for the reconstruction of Gaza 100 times over from their loose change. They could fund realistic alternatives in Palestinian civil society. They could fund incentives for a long-term solution ('hey Mr Jewish West Bank Settler, how about a million dollars to fuck off back to Israel proper?' - OK, semi-joking but you get the idea).
Why aren't they being challenged to do more? These guys are the ones (especially the Saudis but Qatar are no innocents either) responsible for spreading Islamic fundamentalism - now that that particular beast has turned on them, its time to pay the bill.

[6starpool]

It's not. But hey, it's Israel so hyperbole is to be expected.

It's a word that gets tossed around very loosely and it really shouldn't be.

Speaking of, antisemitism is another word tossed around far too liberally these days.

[Micknail]

We speak European here. 192cm, I guess you mean.

Well height is grand is feet maybe, but I can't understand how we still use whatever that UK system is for shoe sizes.

I use EU sizing for shoes!
Think every unit equates to 0.5 of s UK size.

[Raoul Duke III]

Speaking of, antisemitism is another word tossed around far too liberally these days.

Agreed. Which doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Criticizing Israel should not be read as antisemitic - except when it is expressed in that way.

[RichieM]

Why does Israel care so little about PR? Do they just assume everyone hates them anyway?

The information war was a huge part of the second invasion of Iraq. Embedded journalists meant the war was told from the personal side of the US troops.

Compare that to the present situation where Hamas is the source used for causality figures by the BBC and you end up with the hospital fiasco.

That's before you get into the business of China polluting the minds of young people on Tiktok.

Feature not a bug imo to show that no matter what the world thinks, no matter what the pressure they will continue.

Likewise the idea that Iran are delighted means that they won’t stop to show that while they were pushed into action the action is much worse than expected.

They won’t bend on anything to get the hostages back no matter how small and will see recovering corpses better than showing any weakness.

I think a lot of peoples starting point is that Israel want peace and will pay a cost for it rather than removing the threat of war again at any cost.

I also think that Iraq is not the comparison they are going for more ISIS.

Not picking the Israeli side, or supporting their methods but I can see why they doing it.

[6starpool]

Agreed. Which doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Criticizing Israel should not be read as antisemitic - except when it is expressed in that way.

I'm sure it does in some quarters, but I very much doubt most of the criticism Israel is receiving is because they are jews. If they suddenly decided that catholicism was their state religion, or that they all suddenly decided that religion was a load of shite and didn't espouse any religious views at all, the criticism of their actions would be pretty much the same.

[hotspur]

Actually, our reaction to the Paris attacks was quite different.

So one act of mass murder, of Europeans in a European city, evinced a very different reaction to a far larger mass murder, of Jews in Israel.

Not just us btw, it's a fairly universal thing.

What would an honest table look like for us I wonder? Without giving it any thought...

1. White Western European
2. Non-White Western European
3. White North American
4. White Aussie / Kiwi
5. White East European

Ugh, it's too hard, requires thought. I'm sure AI can be fed media and social media posts to determine it quite accurately. But at a guess for many in the Wes, 5-10 Palestinians are worth one Jewish Israeli. We should get quite granular and clear on the consensus numbers. Then we can more appropriately calibrate our responses of injustice etc. So if we take the figure of one Israeli being worth ten Palestinians then Hamas killed 1400 in their attack and so we have to wait until 14000 are killed in Gaza before it is unfair. 10k-odd was the last figure I saw a few days ago, so I'm with RDIII, until another few days anyway.

[Murdrum]

Feature not a bug imo to show that no matter what the world thinks, no matter what the pressure they will continue.

Likewise the idea that Iran are delighted means that they won’t stop to show that while they were pushed into action the action is much worse than expected.

They won’t bend on anything to get the hostages back no matter how small and will see recovering corpses better than showing any weakness.

I think a lot of peoples starting point is that Israel want peace and will pay a cost for it rather than removing the threat of war again at any cost.

I also think that Iraq is not the comparison they are going for more ISIS.

Not picking the Israeli side, or supporting their methods but I can see why they doing it.

I think you’re touching on what I thought was an interesting point raised here i.e. transformational nation building missions rather than those of limited objectives.

SPOILER

Since World War II, most Western military operations have had limited objectives, and in the past 30 years, those objectives have been primarily political. Some of these operations have been what cynical field officers term “diplomatic démarches with booms”: political signaling via carefully orchestrated military actions, such as when the U.S. Air Force recently bombed the munitions stocks of Iranian-backed militias in Syria in response to those militias’ own careful attacks on American forces. Other operations were transformational nation-building missions such as those Washington undertook in Afghanistan and Iraq, which were predicated by security concerns but driven by political aims. (The operation in Afghanistan arguably started as a world-of-war response to an intolerable threat, but it quickly morphed into a chiefly political project to render Afghanistan governable.)

Similar to you on the picking side piece but I thought the framing was interesting.

[Raoul Duke III]

What would an honest table look like for us I wonder? Without giving it any thought...

1. White Western European
2. Non-White Western European
3. White North American
4. White Aussie / Kiwi
5. White East European

We all have bias, whether conscious or unconscious. I'm not sure how we realise and face up to our biases - that's more your department! I'm sure there must be studies and methods to determine this?

I think it's clear that the IPB collective (and we're just a reflection of society more widely) had very different reactions to Paris vs 07-Oct. I don't know why that is but pointing out that fact isn't a bad thing if we are to understand ourselves better. Deep Post Of The Day.

[Raoul Duke III]

I'm sure it does in some quarters, but I very much doubt most of the criticism Israel is receiving is because they are jews. If they suddenly decided that catholicism was their state religion, or that they all suddenly decided that religion was a load of shite and didn't espouse any religious views at all, the criticism of their actions would be pretty much the same.

Oh yeah totally.

Like:

• 'Israel is acting unlawfully by stealing land in the West Bank' - valid.
• 'Israel should not be targeting civilian infrastructure' - valid
• 'Jews control all the money in London and New York' - clearly antisemitic and should be called out as such
• Hamas is deeply antisemitic, with its stated aim being genocide of the Jewish people - clearly true

[6starpool]

We all have bias, whether conscious or unconscious. I'm not sure how we realise and face up to our biases - that's more your department! I'm sure there must be studies and methods to determine this?

I think it's clear that the IPB collective (and we're just a reflection of society more widely) had very different reactions to Paris vs 07-Oct. I don't know why that is but pointing out that fact isn't a bad thing if we are to understand ourselves better. Deep Post Of The Day.

One key difference here (I could be wrong) is that France's reaction to this didn't involve the killing of thousands of children and other innocent civilians. The immediate reaction that you may be talking about was covered by others in that it wasn't entirely obvious the extent of what happened at first. I don't know anyone who hasn't said that what Hamas did was an evil and awful set of events that day. As I said before, Hamas knew what the reaction was and they don't give a fuck about 'normal' palestinian people either. They seem to want this reaction to rile up everyone in Gaza to a full scale revolution or something.

They definitely want the obliteration of Israel, and it seems that Hamas can't be part of any solution so getting rid of them in one way or another has to be part of the outcome. Rooting them out of tunnels and reducing Gaza to little more than rubble in large parts though, isn't it. It'll only foment far more hatred towards Israel. It isn't as if there are X number of Hamas members and everything will be great and peaceful after that.

Netanyahu is a massive problem and has been too for years, but him and his party have been getting consistent support for years, so no real hope of moderation on either side on the horizon.

[Raoul Duke III]

One key difference here (I could be wrong) is that France's reaction to this didn't involve the killing of thousands of children and other innocent civilians.

Not so different.

France and its Western allies bombed the living shit out of Northern Iraq\Syria (the so-called 'ISIS caliphate' - remember that?)!
And helped destroy them on the ground such as in the Battle of Mosul in which an estimated 20,000 people died.

[6starpool]

Not so different.

France and its Western allies bombed the living shit out of Northern Iraq\Syria (the so-called 'ISIS caliphate' - remember that?)!
And helped destroy them on the ground such as in the Battle of Mosul in which an estimated 20,000 people died.

As a direct consequence of the bataclan killings?

[6starpool]

Anyway the world is full of instances of double standards, and of reporting being biased because people more like the target of attacks/tragedies/etc are the target market of such reports. I wouldn't be surprised if the opposite bias to what we see in the west played out in countries that have anti western views.

[Micknail]

What would an honest table look like for us I wonder? Without giving it any thought...

1. White Western European
2. Non-White Western European
3. White North American
4. White Aussie / Kiwi
5. White East European

Ugh, it's too hard, requires thought. I'm sure AI can be fed media and social media posts to determine it quite accurately. But at a guess for many in the Wes, 5-10 Palestinians are worth one Jewish Israeli. We should get quite granular and clear on the consensus numbers. Then we can more appropriately calibrate our responses of injustice etc. So if we take the figure of one Israeli being worth ten Palestinians then Hamas killed 1400 in their attack and so we have to wait until 14000 are killed in Gaza before it is unfair. 10k-odd was the last figure I saw a few days ago, so I'm with RDIII, until another few days anyway.

This reminds me of the Alan Partridge Audiobook 'From the Oasthouse' were he ranks the races.

[Wombatman]

Chat GTP should be employee as an independent and binding mediator in the Arab Israeli conflict. Better chance of bringing about lasting peace than Hamas or the IDF.

[Raoul Duke III]

As a direct consequence of the bataclan killings?

Do you really not remember that bit of recent history?

The coalition was already in place but the pace and severity of the military attacks really ramped up post-Paris. Leading to events like the aforementioned Battle of Mosul (which doesn't look all that dissimilar to the current Battle of Gaza), best estimates are that 10k civilians died there too. Many multiples of 10k died in the overall conflict against ISIS.

[Raoul Duke III]

Anyway the world is full of instances of double standards, and of reporting being biased because people more like the target of attacks/tragedies/etc are the target market of such reports. I wouldn't be surprised if the opposite bias to what we see in the west played out in countries that have anti western views.

You'll even find American reporting and opinion to be very different to West European.

[balfejohn]

Oh yeah totally.

Like:

• 'Israel is acting unlawfully by stealing land in the West Bank' - valid.
• 'Israel should not be targeting civilian infrastructure' - valid
• 'Jews control all the money in London and New York' - clearly antisemitic and should be called out as such
• Hamas is deeply antisemitic, with its stated aim being genocide of the Jewish people - clearly true

If I say
Jewish money controls London and the Us will that make it a valid statement

[ionapaul]

Semi-tangentially, I remember having an intense argument with a friend once, when I threw out the following statement at some point during an otherwise fun evening in the pub: "I'd press a button to kill 1,000,000 people I don't know, if I had to do it to save a family member. I wouldn't even need time to consider it".

He was shocked and totally outraged at this. That was probably 15 years ago, I certainly haven't changed my feelings since having children, I think you could add another few zeros to my hypothetical and I'd still go along with it. Am I a monster?

[zuutroy]

Would be happy enough to extend it to friends and family of friends too. Could never bring myself to give much of a shit about the suffering of people I will never know. The care-o-meter drops very quickly from family - friends - family of friends - acquaintances - family of acquaintances - Irish people - Western people - the rest. Would only place other Irish people and Westerners ahead of the rest because of it being easier to identify with their situation and put yourself in their shoes. Have skimmed the last few page because I have less than no interest in the middle east.

[DeadParrot]

Would be happy enough to extend it to friends and family of friends too. Could never bring myself to give much of a shit about the suffering of people I will never know. The care-o-meter drops very quickly from family - friends - family of friends - acquaintances - family of acquaintances - Irish people - Western people - the rest. Would only place other Irish people and Westerners ahead of the rest because of it being easier to identify with their situation and put yourself in their shoes. Have skimmed the last few page because I have less than no interest in the middle east.

Dunbar's number in action.

[Murdrum]

It’s all based on the same idea of proximity whether that’s physical or emotional, it’s effectively this

[Denny Crane]

Depends on the family member.

[6starpool]

Do you really not remember that bit of recent history?

The coalition was already in place but the pace and severity of the military attacks really ramped up post-Paris. Leading to events like the aforementioned Battle of Mosul (which doesn't look all that dissimilar to the current Battle of Gaza), best estimates are that 10k civilians died there too. Many multiples of 10k died in the overall conflict against ISIS.

The shitstorm that has been Syria in the last decade isn't something I remember knowing a lot about. I know the basic headlines, ISIS, Bashir Al-Assad, US led coalition and Russians on the Assad side, but on the timelines of specific ramping up or offensives, I couldn't say much about that for sure.

[6starpool]

Semi-tangentially, I remember having an intense argument with a friend once, when I threw out the following statement at some point during an otherwise fun evening in the pub: "I'd press a button to kill 1,000,000 people I don't know, if I had to do it to save a family member. I wouldn't even need time to consider it".

He was shocked and totally outraged at this. That was probably 15 years ago, I certainly haven't changed my feelings since having children, I think you could add another few zeros to my hypothetical and I'd still go along with it. Am I a monster?

I watch or read about things happening abroad, or even in Ireland and aside from an "oh that's terrible" or similar sentiment, it doesn't get much more than that, no more than reading about massacres, atrocities or disasters ages past. I'm not really a 'cause' type person, although I'll happily have an internet discussion and take a side, but it doesn't affect my life much. Thankfully there will never be an instance where I have to kill a million (or hopefully even 1 person) people in order to save a close family member or friend, but it goes without saying that I'd care almost infinitely more about the 1 in that instance than the million.

[hotspur]

Semi-tangentially, I remember having an intense argument with a friend once, when I threw out the following statement at some point during an otherwise fun evening in the pub: "I'd press a button to kill 1,000,000 people I don't know, if I had to do it to save a family member. I wouldn't even need time to consider it".

He was shocked and totally outraged at this. That was probably 15 years ago, I certainly haven't changed my feelings since having children, I think you could add another few zeros to my hypothetical and I'd still go along with it. Am I a monster?

Yes

[Raoul Duke III]

Yes

Pretty shocking that we have so many mass murderers amongst us. Always had my doubts about ionapaul but 6star has shocked me to the core.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

Semi-tangentially, I remember having an intense argument with a friend once, when I threw out the following statement at some point during an otherwise fun evening in the pub: "I'd press a button to kill 1,000,000 people I don't know, if I had to do it to save a family member. I wouldn't even need time to consider it".

He was shocked and totally outraged at this. That was probably 15 years ago, I certainly haven't changed my feelings since having children, I think you could add another few zeros to my hypothetical and I'd still go along with it. Am I a monster?

yeah, wouldn't even consider it for a moment tbh. As in, press the button and be done with. But then destroy that button so someone else can't make the same choice and take me out with their random killocide.

[ionapaul]

Yeah, you see me and you think 'potential mass murderer' for sure, just got that look going on.

[DeadParrot]

Pretty shocking that we have so many mass murderers amongst us. Always had my doubts about ionapaul but 6star has shocked me to the core.

LuckyLloyd looking for two buttons just to be sure

[DeadParrot]

Actually a decent few Stephen King books kinda related to it. Gwendys button box and it's sequels.

[6starpool]

Pretty shocking that we have so many mass murderers amongst us. Always had my doubts about ionapaul but 6star has shocked me to the core.

I never said I'd murder them, just that I wouldn't be too perturbed if they were murdered far away from me. Subtle difference.

[Opr]

GitHub introducing Co-Pilot for entire codebases. Tell it what you want in natural language and away it goes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrQkdDVupQE&t=2566s

[DeadParrot]

But you do take the point on hostages and how their release could produce a ceasefire?

Hamas is holding hostages, if they release them the bombing stops.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/09/netanyahu-rejected-ceasefire-for-hostages-deal-in-gaza-sources-say?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Benjamin Netanyahu rejected a deal for a five-day ceasefire with Palestinian militant groups in Gaza in return for the release of some of the hostages held in the territory, according to sources familiar with the negotiations.

I for one could not have seen this turn of events.....

[dobby]

Puska found guilty of murdering Ashling Murphy after less than 2 hours of jury deliberations.

Followed the daily updates from journos and the stuff he made up to try and get out of it, even on the stand, was mental.

Surely looking at life for the animal.

[zuutroy]

GitHub introducing Co-Pilot for entire codebases. Tell it what you want in natural language and away it goes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrQkdDVupQE&t=2566s

Please make me a solver for 2-7 Triple Draw and report back.

[Raoul Duke III]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/09/netanyahu-rejected-ceasefire-for-hostages-deal-in-gaza-sources-say?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

I for one could not have seen this turn of events.....

I'd imagine they are looking for ALL the hostages to be released. Why would they settle for less?

[Opr]

Please make me a solver for 2-7 Triple Draw and report back.

I made it sound like the magic machine was here, which is not quite true It can take an already existing complex codebase, do analysis and then from that develop new features, find bugs, security holes etc.

It would probably be an interesting case once it released to see if you can give it a code base of a solver for an existing game and then ask it to build one for another game.

[Raoul Duke III]

Solksjaer! - a headline that you could have written

[Lao Lao]

What would an honest table look like for us I wonder? Without giving it any thought...

1. White Western European
2. Non-White Western European
3. White North American
4. White Aussie / Kiwi
5. White East European

Ugh, it's too hard, requires thought. I'm sure AI can be fed media and social media posts to determine it quite accurately. But at a guess for many in the Wes, 5-10 Palestinians are worth one Jewish Israeli. We should get quite granular and clear on the consensus numbers. Then we can more appropriately calibrate our responses of injustice etc. So if we take the figure of one Israeli being worth ten Palestinians then Hamas killed 1400 in their attack and so we have to wait until 14000 are killed in Gaza before it is unfair. 10k-odd was the last figure I saw a few days ago, so I'm with RDIII, until another few days anyway.

The compilation of this list is disgusting


Aussie men & Sheilas from Sydney should be waaaaaayyyyy further down it, I'm thinking around number 107.

[DeadParrot]

I'd imagine they are looking for ALL the hostages to be released. Why would they settle for less?

You have to know this has nothing (or at most, very little) to do with the hostages right?

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

Puska found guilty of murdering Ashling Murphy after less than 2 hours of jury deliberations.

Followed the daily updates from journos and the stuff he made up to try and get out of it, even on the stand, was mental.

Surely looking at life for the animal.

There's some weird thing in the Irish legal system where you almost have to give 'getting away with murder' a go by pleading not guilty, no matter how obvious the crime, as there is no credit given for pleading guilty early. As in, its 25 years (life) whether you plead not guilty or not, so you may as well plead not guilty and have a legal defense team paid a million by the state to try to find a loophole even if theres only a tiny chance of that happening.

[Raoul Duke III]

You have to know this has nothing (or at most, very little) to do with the hostages right?

Explain.

[Silver-Tiger]

Some excellent posting in here the last 24 hours. Good debate which has miraculously not turned personal.

It's up there with transgenderism with the levels of crazy it's making people.

[Lazare]

Some excellent posting in here the last 24 hours. Good debate which has miraculously not turned personal.

It's up there with transgenderism with the levels of crazy it's making people.

Answer me question in the Running thread will ya

[dinekes]

There's some weird thing in the Irish legal system where you almost have to give 'getting away with murder' a go by pleading not guilty, no matter how obvious the crime, as there is no credit given for pleading guilty early. As in, its 25 years (life) whether you plead not guilty or not, so you may as well plead not guilty and have a legal defense team paid a million by the state to try to find a loophole even if theres only a tiny chance of that happening.

Parole boards take a dim view of the not guilty plea apparently.
Future Puska may regret not sparing the Murphy family the extra trauma of a trial.(having to go through gruesome evidence etc)

[Raoul Duke III]

Some excellent posting in here the last 24 hours. Good debate which has miraculously not turned personal.

It's up there with transgenderism with the levels of crazy it's making people.

Don't go asking Hamas what they make of transgenderism.

[dinekes]

If we all had Ionas magic button they're be no one left.

In fact just received my reply from "Magic Killing Buttons Company"

Opening letter (fingers crossed) .....

"Application approved"

You see I started out with a small easily approved request first...
Tailgaters

Clickety click

[Strewelpeter]

There's some weird thing in the Irish legal system where you almost have to give 'getting away with murder' a go by pleading not guilty, no matter how obvious the crime, as there is no credit given for pleading guilty early. As in, its 25 years (life) whether you plead not guilty or not, so you may as well plead not guilty and have a legal defense team paid a million by the state to try to find a loophole even if theres only a tiny chance of that happening.

How much more do Messrs Sue, Grabbit &Run earn by pushing their client to go for trial? Vile business.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

Don't go asking Hamas what they make of transgenderism.

But once again - its still not a reason for the Israelis to slaughter Palestinian kids, or indeed even members of Hamas. In the same way as we don't yet consider CC or Andy suitable candidates for slaughter.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

How much more do Messrs Sue, Grabbit &Run earn by pushing their client to go for trial? Vile business.

Generally agree with you, but for murder trials it seems a legal system flaw rather than a legal profession flaw. But can't fully remember the explanation that I heard before explaining why.

[Degag]

Puska found guilty of murdering Ashling Murphy after less than 2 hours of jury deliberations.

Followed the daily updates from journos and the stuff he made up to try and get out of it, even on the stand, was mental.

Surely looking at life for the animal.

I read earlier that the judge told the jury earlier that they had to make a decision by 4.30 today and that it had to be unanimous.
Anyone gave any rationale for this? Especially the ‘make a decision by X time’

[MysteryGuest]

Assume 6 star has applied- if not tomorrow is the deadline

https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/about-us/company-information/career-opportunities-at-iarnrod-eireann/train-driver

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

What was his presumed motivation - was that ever explained in court?

[hotspur]

But once again - its still not a reason for the Israelis to slaughter Palestinian kids, or indeed even members of Hamas. In the same way as we don't yet consider CC or Andy suitable candidates for slaughter.

Are you outing AndyFB?

[Micknail]

Are you outing AndyFB?

Surely Tar and Theresa worth a mention

[Solksjaer!]

Solksjaer! - a headline that you could have written

His base is unmoved . His appeal is baffling , 2 yoinks in work yesterday with proTrump shite. Biden sniffs children. Toast is the new snake oil.

[oleras]

Some excellent posting in here the last 24 hours. Good debate which has miraculously not turned personal.

It's up there with transgenderism with the levels of crazy it's making people.

One of the very few times where i have found myself self censoring myself for some strange reason ?

As my mother would put it, theres a pair of them in it, but cmon, calling people animals and treating them similarly... that just creates the next generation to hate you, the only real "end" i can see is total annihilation down there, lets just hope that war stays where it is and only affects the browns.

An aside, has HH been going back and erasing his past ? Hoping when he gets the cushy government advisor role they wont dig too deeply into his past...

[Hectorjelly]

It’s all based on the same idea of proximity whether that’s physical or emotional, it’s effectively this

image_5666.png