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Originally posted by premierstone View PostHey folks, hope you all keeping well, unfortunately havent been on here much recently.
I have a vague recollection of having a bet here with someone on Arsenal to finish ahead of Spurs
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Originally posted by premierstone View PostHey folks, hope you all keeping well, unfortunately havent been on here much recently.
I have a vague recollection of having a bet here with someone on Arsenal to finish ahead of Spurs
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Originally posted by ArmaniJeans View Post
Just in case you missed it, there's an update in the Multi Sport thread with 10 replacement events to be selected by Tuesday 4th.No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity, but I know none, therefore am no beast.
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Originally posted by Solksjaer! View Post
I questioned this when I was about 7 and the priest said . Its symbolic . Seems odd people take it literally . :
Obviously no one really believes but that's a different matterTurning millions into thousands
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Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Post
You literally cannot be a Catholic and believe it is symbolic.
Obviously no one really believes but that's a different matter
I was only ever into it for the communion money anyway. So following your logic Nobody is really a Catholic . We are all closet proddys. Feck . Bread of heaven....
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Went to a funeral today, my 42 y/o cousin who left behind a 4 and a 2 y/o (cancer). Awful as you can imagine.
It was a CoI funeral and the rector handled it really sensitively including all the awkwardness around the covid protocols. She was outstanding.
So maybe that's the answer: turn the administrative side of religion over to the laydeez."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by Kayroo View Post
Even in a metaphor you won’t call me more than semi decent at poker. Which is fair.
Have fond memories of you being completely unable to put me on a hand when 4-betting you 42o and binking some kind of 44xxx runout.Last edited by Raoul Duke III; 27-07-20, 21:31."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Anyone going to call SP an anti semite for not boycotting twitter for 48hrs as has been suggested by the UK chief rabbi?
In other news seems that Depp trial doesn't have a jury and it's down to one Judge. So he'll probably win, and the damages will be set at £10 paid over 20 years.Gone full 'Glinner' since June 2022.
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Originally posted by Kayroo View PostTell me how the ethics of Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, Arristipus, Epicurus, the Stoics, the Cynics were influenced by the Bible.
Even if every ethical teaching in the Bible existed for all time before it, it came to people in Europe through the Church and from the Bible.
You're as well arguing that churches in Ireland were not due to Christianity because there were buildings before Christianity and elsewhere.
I hope you get my point, I'm very tired so not putting it very well. I could accept all you say about the Bible reflecting existing ethics at the time (I don't but I could), but it is the Church's transmission that has been the dominant transmission of ethics in Europe. And for much else of European culture and society. To either try to divorce Christian ethics from the Bible, or divorce European society's ethics from the Church is to deny the truth of our history.
Anyway I should be the last person arguing for a recognition of the effect of Christianity on Europe or Ireland's ethical learning. But your dislike for the Church appears to have caused you to try to argue something quite untrue. I would like to think we would be quite ethical without Christianity's influence, but I acknowledge the reality of our history. Our ethics is no more free from the effects of Christianity than our first names, schools, hospitals, buildings, Constitution etc.
We need a Christian to take up the mantle here.
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Originally posted by hotspur View PostWe need a Christian to take up the mantle here.
Don't think you need anything more than that."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by hotspur View PostThey got their formal ethics from the Church, the clergy run schools, and their similarly conditioned parents and grandparents. The Church's ethical teaches are quite obviously grounded in the Bible. Even if every ethical teaching of the Bible existed all over the planet in other traditions that would not mean that the morality of people in Europe did not come to them through the Church and from the Bible.
That does not elevate that book to a source of ethics. It is no such thing. You say Christianity and the Church have influenced our ethical thinking. I agree with that. Anyone who holds a virtual monopoly on education for a few centuries will have an impact on the youth of today (or a thousand or so years of todays). But the ethics they taught did not come from the Bible. If that was true then why would they ignore so much of it now, and even in the past? Even the Church, those literally claiming to be anointed by God, realise they just need to skip over large tracts of Leviticus. Because if they didn't then the Church would have to teach that sleeping with another man's slave is a sin that requires the sacrifice of a goat, and yet remain silent on the fact the other man has a slave at all. They don't do that. The Church brings its own ethics to the Bible and finds justifications for them there.
You seem to be arguing that the Church has an influence on my ethics and that they get their ethics from the Bible, therefore the Bible informs my ethical views. But I think you have a long way to go in proving that the ethics of the Church come from the Bible and not the other way around. People find in it only what they want to find. Slaveowners find justifications for slavery. Misogynists find justifications for the subjugation of women. Trendy priests who want to preach love find messages of hope and joy. But the book (I know it's books, but taking the collection as a whole) itself is devoid of any real lessons or coherent message. Which isn't surprising given its own history.
I know this isn't a discussion you want to have. So I won't engage in it again. But I wanted to ensure my point was clearly made.You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011
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I’m really really sorry I posted about Dean Rocks gouging, I could not have foreseen the consequences
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Originally posted by Solksjaer! View PostI questioned this when I was about 7 and the priest said . Its symbolic . Seems odd people take it literally . Not defending the CC but come on if you were told it was anything different no wonder you went into science class looking for answers .
Similar the Adam and Eve story was just a story . The bible is basically a storybook to base a good life upon. They knew how to handle wimmin back then though . Not allowed at stonings unless wearing a false beard.
I'd say it's more likely that 7 year old Solks misinterpreted what the Priest said rather than him actually saying it was symbolic.
Although it's not quite as simple as others suggest above. The church also says to stays as wine, in appearance and properties. It is only the substance that changes, not the perception. It's goes back to an particular branch of metaphysics and substance theory and not quite as straight forward as symbolic/literal.
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Originally posted by Kayroo View Post
Well let's separate two things here. The Bible is a fixed thing. The Church is not. The Church's ethics and morality have changed (glacially) depending on the society they are in. The Church brings their morality to the Bible and uses this fixed "holy word" to justify the shifting ethics. Thomas Aquinas was influenced by Aristotle and then blends Aristotilean philosophy into Christian theology. He took an ethical idea and brought it to the Bible, found a justification for it there and then called it Christian teaching. Then the Church adopts his theological teachings and preaches it to their flock. So my parents and grandparents get their ethics from Aristotle (among other places) but the ethics are justified not by the reason Aristotle used but rather by reference to a magical book.
That does not elevate that book to a source of ethics. It is no such thing. You say Christianity and the Church have influenced our ethical thinking. I agree with that. Anyone who holds a virtual monopoly on education for a few centuries will have an impact on the youth of today (or a thousand or so years of todays). But the ethics they taught did not come from the Bible. If that was true then why would they ignore so much of it now, and even in the past? Even the Church, those literally claiming to be anointed by God, realise they just need to skip over large tracts of Leviticus. Because if they didn't then the Church would have to teach that sleeping with another man's slave is a sin that requires the sacrifice of a goat, and yet remain silent on the fact the other man has a slave at all. They don't do that. The Church brings its own ethics to the Bible and finds justifications for them there.
Ethics exists before the bible or the church, and the church didn't invent them. But the fact they didn't create them doesn't seem relevant to the notion that it has had an influence on the morals of people in the western world. When our great-grandparents followed the opinion that abortion/sex/condoms/divorce/suicide was wrong. They did so because the Priest said so while pointing to the magic book. Nobody, or few people perhaps, campaigned for/against various amendments in the 20th century because Aristotle or Plato said so.
Originally posted by Kayroo View PostYou seem to be arguing that the Church has an influence on my ethics and that they get their ethics from the Bible, therefore the Bible informs my ethical views. But I think you have a long way to go in proving that the ethics of the Church come from the Bible and not the other way around. People find in it only what they want to find. Slaveowners find justifications for slavery. Misogynists find justifications for the subjugation of women. Trendy priests who want to preach love find messages of hope and joy. But the book (I know it's books, but taking the collection as a whole) itself is devoid of any real lessons or coherent message. Which isn't surprising given its own history.
So they a were all created by man, who was in some part central to the church. Arguing whether the church is influenced by a man 2000 years ago or the book he wrote seems a bit silly.
It's just one big science fiction fandom after-all. The original trilogy, the new trilogy. The fan-fiction, and the various non-canonical sources.Last edited by Mellor; 28-07-20, 04:28.
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Mellor I think you may have missed my point. I originally said that nobody gets their morals from the Bible. The basis for that was that the Bible isn’t a source of moral teaching. It doesn’t have anything useful to say about morality. Rather, it is a hot mess of random books collated into a single text without any real useful purpose.
I concede that the Church teaches morality. I never argued against that. And I concede that they point to the Bible as authority for their teaching. But I do not concede that the Bible is where the moral teaching comes from. My entire point is that the Bible is useless and that we bring our morality to it, rather than take our morality from it. Nothing you said remotely contradicts that.
By the by, your suggestion that the Church is not some eternal hive mind is somewhat undermined by the fact that the Church itself considers itself an eternal hive mind. The holders of the one holy revealed truth. The voice of God on earth. They make that claim, not me.You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011
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Originally posted by Mellor View PostAlthough it's not quite as simple as others suggest above. The church also says to stays as wine, in appearance and properties. It is only the substance that changes, not the perception. It's goes back to an particular branch of metaphysics and substance theory and not quite as straight forward as symbolic/literal.You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011
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Originally posted by Kayroo View Post
I mean, great. Who cares? It’s all just nonsense one way or the other. It’s a wafer. A Jewish man from 2000 years ago isn’t there either physically or in spirit.
As if the average Texan would listen to what a brown lad with a beard from the Middle East has to say.I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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...Last edited by Hitchhiker's Guide To...; 28-07-20, 09:21."We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil
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Originally posted by Lazare View Post
Had to laugh at a tweet this week from a Dallas news org asking for opinion on what Jesus would do during these times.
As if the average Texan would listen to what a brown socialist lad with a beard from the Middle East has to say.You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011
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Originally posted by Kayroo View Post
Just to make it worse.
Not a question anyone ever gets asked on a daily basis I imagine.
But could you list out the top 5, maybe in bullet point form?"We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
What are your own personal ethics?
Not a question anyone ever gets asked on a daily basis I imagine.
But could you list out the top 5, maybe in bullet point form?
I suppose, and please excuse the roughness of this, they would be:
1. Never make a situation worse. Always act as though your obligation is to improve a situation. Identifying how that might be done is obviously the trickiest part.
2. Be kind. I don't always live up to this one but I think if your guiding principles include kindness you shouldn't go too wrong, too often.
3. Wherever possible, tell the truth. But when it's not possible, do everything you can to avoid lying.
4. Never make a promise you cannot keep, and never break a promise you've made. (An offshoot of 3 but really its a separate issue for me. Telling the truth is one thing but committing to act is another)
5. Take responsibility for your own agency. A good will is inherently good. But if a well-intended act produces a negative outcome it is important to own both the intention and the result. Trying to excuse one by reference to the other isn't sufficient.
These are really not expressed well and actually I am glad you asked me as I think it's a worthwhile exercise to go away and examine that question in more depth.
I'd be interested to hear yours also.You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011
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5. Take responsibility for your own agency. A good will is inherently good. But if a well-intended act produces a negative outcome it is important to own both the intention and the result. Trying to excuse one by reference to the other isn't sufficient.
This one took me years to recognize. Good one .
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...Last edited by Hitchhiker's Guide To...; 28-07-20, 12:33."We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil
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A deafening silence from the Axis here. Hitch makes dodgy claims about China and a stomping ensues. Kayroo claims the Bible is not a source of ethics and there is silence.
I just had the thought "I bet there's a random Bible quote site". There is. I was confident that the chances that a random quote would be ethical in nature were high, here is the one that came up:
Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?"
Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven."
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Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View PostI'm being asked to do maths I'm not comfortable with. Would the furniture and random stuff of a standard 60sqm apartment normally fit in a 30 cubic metre removal truck? I'd imagine so - as in there is more than 50% air compared to stuff in our apartment, so it must be less than 30 cubic metre stuff, but always get a bit confused by area. Like I'm guessing that sqm and cubic metre are approximately comparable when the sqm refers to an apartment.
4.5 tonne truck – holds 24 cubic meters off furniture:- Suits medium size moves – ideal if you have a two bedroom unit or small house.
- Great for tight spots or where is hard to park.
Gone full 'Glinner' since June 2022.
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There was a reason I asked for the bullet points - Congratulations sir, you are a Christian .
I think we can subtly rephrase your ethics as follows:
Originally posted by Kayroo View Post
1.Never make a situation worse. Always act as though your obligation is to improve a situation. Identifying how that might be done is obviously the trickiest part.
Thou shat not kill
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness
Thou shalt not covet
2. Be kind. I don't always live up to this one but I think if your guiding principles include kindness you shouldn't go too wrong, too often.
Love thy neighbour
3.Wherever possible, tell the truth. But when it's not possible, do everything you can to avoid lying.
Thou shalt not bear false witness
4.Never make a promise you cannot keep, and never break a promise you've made. (An offshoot of 3 but really its a separate issue for me. Telling the truth is one thing but committing to act is another)
Thou shalt not bear false witness
5. Take responsibility for your own agency. A good will is inherently good. But if a well-intended act produces a negative outcome it is important to own both the intention and the result. Trying to excuse one by reference to the other isn't sufficient.
Got stuck here with my senior infants level RE but it's a good one"We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by hotspur View PostA deafening silence from the Axis here. Hitch makes dodgy claims about China and a stomping ensues. Kayroo claims the Bible is not a source of ethics and there is silence.
I just had the thought "I bet there's a random Bible quote site". There is. I was confident that the chances that a random quote would be ethical in nature were high, here is the one that came up:
Anyway, definitely my last word on the matter.
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Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View PostThere was a reason I asked for the bullet points - Congratulations sir, you are a Christian .
I think we can subtly rephrase your ethics as follows:
Also, as I said above, those are self-evident requirements for human civilization. The tablets of Moses' imagination no more gave those ethical ideas to me than God gave them to Moses.You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011
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Lot of mistaking correlation for causation here. Because we learned the basics of logic and history from Folens schoolbooks, all hail Folens. Is that how this viewpoint works?
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Originally posted by Kayroo View PostMellor I think you may have missed my point. I originally said that nobody gets their morals from the Bible.
I also point out that it’s not what Hotspur actually said either.
I concede that the Church teaches morality. I never argued against that. And I concede that they point to the Bible as authority for their teaching. But I do not concede that the Bible is where the moral teaching comes from.
You concede that church teaches morality, and has done for a long time. And that they point to the bible as the authority.
Therefore it’s not unreasonable to point out that the church, and with them the bible, has impacted western morality.
Even though atheists like you or I don’t buy into any of their bullshit.
By the by, your suggestion that the Church is not some eternal hive mind is somewhat undermined by the fact that the Church itself considers itself an eternal hive mind. The holders of the one holy revealed truth. The voice of God on earth. They make that claim, not me.
Nonetheless, their claims would have to actually be true to start undermining anything.
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Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View PostI'm being asked to do maths I'm not comfortable with. Would the furniture and random stuff of a standard 60sqm apartment normally fit in a 30 cubic metre removal truck? I'd imagine so - as in there is more than 50% air compared to stuff in our apartment, so it must be less than 30 cubic metre stuff, but always get a bit confused by area. Like I'm guessing that sqm and cubic metre are approximately comparable when the sqm refers to an apartment.
A 30 cubic metre truck is 12-15sqm.
It should fit but depends on how stackable your furniture is. Table and chairs, and sofas are the most awkward.
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Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View Post
wow its like an alien came in and wiped out your knowledge of kayroos fundamental point that these aren't christian-derived morals, they are far longer standing morals that christianity subsequently adopted. To make a relatable analogy it would be like calling someone a cricketer because they like afternoon tea; while in fact afternoon tea preceeded cricket and was in fact famously what god invented to quench his thirst after creating the land but before creating water.
thou shalt not take the name of cricket in vain, or thou shalt get an almighty ass-whuppin'"We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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And from herein the book must be placed in a drawer of sorts within a temporary sleeping chamber and close to the area of repose , so that the weary traveller might take comfort in it’s teachings or for added strength for when doubt & temptation comes his way.
OR – Just before you ring up the call girl to come up to your room ‘av a butchers in the top drawer of the bedside locker and be reminded that GOD is always watching.
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Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View PostIt would be a good idea to teach ethics in school
One problem with teaching ethics to, say leaving cert age students, is that ethics is a really quite difficult subject. They wouldn't tend to have the cognitive capacity, and unless they were trained in philosophy I can't imagine teachers would be much use. They would have to come up with a curriculum which is very dumbed down to the point that, while better than nothing, would doubtless be philosophically pretty unsatisfactory. Might be still worth it though. But it would be a massive thing to decide on the curriculum.
By the way if anyone fancies learning a little about the area Marianne Talbot did a really nice and understandable series on ethics for beginners through an Oxford Uni adult education class that is up on Youtube over 7 episodes. She's very good, down to earth, and yet enjoyably flighty:
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Originally posted by hotspur View Post
That's a statement of causality.
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Hey Dublin peeps - need to get a hall/landing painted. Don't want to attempt it myself (dab hand at the other rooms though!) as wouldn't feel too confident with the highest bits over the stairs.
Could anyone recommend someone to paint a single room like this? I assume the big painting contractors wouldn't be interested in such a small job.
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Originally posted by ionapaul View PostHey Dublin peeps - need to get a hall/landing painted. Don't want to attempt it myself (dab hand at the other rooms though!) as wouldn't feel too confident with the highest bits over the stairs.
Could anyone recommend someone to paint a single room like this? I assume the big painting contractors wouldn't be interested in such a small job.
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Originally posted by zuutroy View PostThe schoolbook publisher just took existing wisdom and wrapped it in a neat, marketable package..
But nonetheless, the particular schoolbooks you used, influenced your education. The fact other school books existed that you didn’t use doesn’t negate that.
I’m surprised this is controversial tbh.
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Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View PostI'm being asked to do maths I'm not comfortable with. Would the furniture and random stuff of a standard 60sqm apartment normally fit in a 30 cubic metre removal truck? I'd imagine so - as in there is more than 50% air compared to stuff in our apartment, so it must be less than 30 cubic metre stuff, but always get a bit confused by area. Like I'm guessing that sqm and cubic metre are approximately comparable when the sqm refers to an apartment.
maybe some packing tape and string. A few boxes for your finest crockery. Presume the removal lads will have boxes etc but I'd do all the breakable stuff first and mark the box with a sharpie.
Probably redundant/obvious tips.
Last edited by dinekes; 28-07-20, 15:20.
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