Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - BabyforV

[AndyFatBastard]

Just don't mention the fact that every other western democracy already imposes domestic water charges

Psst. Ours will be among the most expensive in the world:

[LuckyLloyd]

Do you think a revisit is likely given that they have come this far and started installing meters?
Where will the money come from for the work that has been done to date?

Check out the news, a revisit is a distinct possibility at this stage, and that's before non payment issues have even occurred.

[shano1888]

You're confused by my distaste for a ludicrous demonstration of rampant classism?

It was funny though

[ionapaul]

Am just waking up for the first of 4 days in NYC - a few blocks from Times Square. Despite my time in California and dozens of trips to other US cities, this is only my 2nd trip to NYC and as the last was a two day visit over a decade ago, I don't know the city at all. Any recommendations for things to do, see and go, think we've the obvious tourist stuff covered so less obvious things appreciated!

Good spot to watch the rugby tomorrow?

Reservation in a Michelin-starred place tonight, going to our first two-starred restaurant tomorrow, but can confirm we're avoiding the more expensive Sinn Fein dinner later

[oleras]

I know i am already saving and more mindful of waste since my water meter was fitted, the shower is turned off while washing hair and body, i don't let the sink run rinsing plates etc.

The one massive downfall though is all "dirty" recyclables now go straight to landfill, im not wasting water rinsing them out.

Personally have no issue paying for what i use. The only real gripe i would have with IW is it should 100% remain the property of the citizens, be accountable to committees on a regular basis and can never be sold.

It should be ran like a private company though, no unionised workers, sacked if you dont perform or spend more than 20% of your day breastfeeding the shovel.

[oleras]

This weekend will be embrace the spud weekend.

On the menu will be boxty, potatoes bravas and fondant potato.

[DeadParrot]

Rightly or wrongly, I can't help but think this is the first time the majority of protesters have actually had a tax they had to pay (excluding vat which they don't consider obviously)

That may be a bit close minded of me, but I can't see any other reason for it to be honest.

We obviously live in very different worlds.
That is an unbelievable view to have.
This is a camels back scenario. Although people get fucked more by other things, this is a tangible physical thing that people can grasp onto. I have no issues with paying the water charges and can see the reasons for doing so. The manner in which is has been brought forward, the arrogance and dismissal of a rising tide of civil disobedience as scrotes, chancers and wasters denies the possibility that there is arguments to be made, the fact is the backlash is probably well overdue. I sometimes wonder if I am getting more and more conservative as I get older. It kinda frightens me that I've lost the spark of righteous anger and am more prone to talk down (at least in my head) to people that don't think the same way I do.
/mini-rant

[oleras]

I know I know, if only everyone else saw the world through my childlike eyes.

[oleras]

We obviously live in very different worlds.
That is an unbelievable view to have.
This is a camels back scenario. Although people get fucked more by other things, this is a tangible physical thing that people can grasp onto. I have no issues with paying the water charges and can see the reasons for doing so. The manner in which is has been brought forward, the arrogance and dismissal of a rising tide of civil disobedience as scrotes, chancers and wasters denies the possibility that there is arguments to be made, the fact is the backlash is probably well overdue. I sometimes wonder if I am getting more and more conservative as I get older. It kinda frightens me that I've lost the spark of righteous anger and am more prone to talk down (at least in my head) to people that don't think the same way I do.
/mini-rant

Scrotes and chancers must be the only ones able to afford the fancy smartphones and comment on the videos the protestors are putting up with such vile and contempt for the Gardai, if the commentators are in any way conducive of the general protestor on the street it doesn't say much for them im afraid.

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[AndyFatBastard]

That's water prices per 1000 litres in selected cities. Source:

http://www.publicpolicy.ie/domestic-water-charges-in-europe/

Ours will be €4.86.

[bohsman]

Don't get it. What does that chart say?

Charge per 100 or 1000 litres I think, Ireland more expensive than Copenhagen according to the similar one I saw.

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[Denny Crane]

Check out the news, a revisit is a distinct possibility at this stage, and that's before non payment issues have even occurred.

Just like with the property charge

[Denny Crane]

If the water protesters win then a whole group of other people lose through having to pay more tax. Is using force to block the installation of meters really the way we want to decide these things? The most thuggish side gets to decide that the less thuggish side have to pay their bills for them.

Is that not how socialism works?

[AndyFatBastard]

If the water protesters win then a whole group of other people lose through having to pay more tax. Is using force to block the installation of meters really the way we want to decide these things? The most thuggish side gets to decide that the less thuggish side have to pay their bills for them.

That's one way of looking at it. Another is that the people of Ireland have had their fill of spending cuts and tax hikes, and Irish Water has become a rallying-point for those calling for the end of austerity.

[Denny Crane]

That's one way of looking at it. Another is that the people of Ireland have had their fill of spending cuts and tax hikes, and Irish Water has become a rallying-point for those calling for the end of austerity.

Irish Austerity

[LuckyLloyd]

If the water protesters win then a whole group of other people lose through having to pay more tax. Is using force to block the installation of meters really the way we want to decide these things? The most thuggish side gets to decide that the less thuggish side have to pay their bills for them.

Direct blocking of meter installations are a small aspect of protesting. ~150k up and down the country took to the streets last weekend to protest peacefully.

GMC Sierra got an exclusion zone order in court despite the lack of a single criminal conviction for harm to an employee
GMC Sierra is owned by Denis O'Brien
Denis O'Brien is a lead shareholder in the Independent
Independent prints stories implying that dissident Republicans are organising / driving water meter protests

Leaving aside how much of a fool you'd have to be to take the Indo seriously, there was a time (up to Feb 2011) where that type of behind the scenes linkage would be highlighted and scrutinised by Glyn et al. How times have changed!

[Tar.Aldarion]

So I ordered this lovely pair of shoes for 100e, they were late shipping so he sent me 30e back.

Now two pairs have arrived. le sigh. Time to be a hotspur

[AndyFatBastard]

Irish Austerity

This chart. I do not think it shows what you think it shows.

[LuckyLloyd]

Just like with the property charge

Don't remember this level of opposition to the property tax. If your pacman smiley is indicating potential deduction at source via revenue as the solution here you should realise the gov is very unwilling to do same as it would set an interesting precedent for a utility / service charge to say the least.

[Denny Crane]

This chart. I do not think it shows what you think it shows.

Caught me mid-edit. Only in Ireland could you increase the spending from the boom years and call it austerity!

Don't remember this level of opposition to the property tax. If your pacman smiley is indicating potential deduction at source via revenue as the solution here you should realise the gov is very unwilling to do same as it would set an interesting precedent for a utility / service charge to say the least.

My pacman is because people said exactly the same about the property tax.

[Tar.Aldarion]

Rightly or wrongly, I can't help but think this is the first time the majority of protesters have actually had a tax they had to pay (excluding vat which they don't consider obviously)

That may be a bit close minded of me, but I can't see any other reason for it to be honest.

I agree that the majority seem to be, "dey took our waterrrr" but a lot of people have valid points and don't care that they have to pay for water, that is not their issue.


The odd thing is I don't think anything would have changed without both groups.

[6starpool]

Caught me mid-edit. Only in Ireland could you increase the spending from the boom years and call it austerity!


My pacman is because people said exactly the same about the property tax.

Almost all social welfare increases though surely?

[Strewelpeter]

We obviously live in very different worlds.
That is an unbelievable view to have.
This is a camels back scenario. Although people get fucked more by other things, this is a tangible physical thing that people can grasp onto. I have no issues with paying the water charges and can see the reasons for doing so. The manner in which is has been brought forward, the arrogance and dismissal of a rising tide of civil disobedience as scrotes, chancers and wasters denies the possibility that there is arguments to be made, the fact is the backlash is probably well overdue. I sometimes wonder if I am getting more and more conservative as I get older. It kinda frightens me that I've lost the spark of righteous anger and am more prone to talk down (at least in my head) to people that don't think the same way I do.
/mini-rant

That's one way of looking at it. Another is that the people of Ireland have had their fill of spending cuts and tax hikes, and Irish Water has become a rallying-point for those calling for the end of austerity.

But if its right to charge for water its right to charge for water , because the populist politicos have whipped up a frenzy and gullible people who are weary of austerity have bought into their line does not make it wrong to charge for water or lessen the necessity for us to do it.

[Tar.Aldarion]

Also, if there was one group there that would have brought about changes, who do you think it would have been?

[ArmaniJeans]

Direct blocking of meter installations are a small aspect of protesting. ~150k up and down the country took to the streets last weekend to protest peacefully.

GMC Sierra got an exclusion zone order in court despite the lack of a single criminal conviction for harm to an employee
GMC Sierra is owned by Denis O'Brien
Denis O'Brien is a lead shareholder in the Independent
Independent prints stories implying that dissident Republicans are organising / driving water meter protests

Theres clearly a link; I haven't delved too deeply but one of the speakers at the protest outside the Coolock station is recognisable as a member of Eirigi and stood for them in the last local elections. I'm sure there are others as well.

Obviously he is free to protest like everyone else, but it does make it easy to link the protests with dissidents (seems reasonable enough to call Eirigi a dissident and sinister group).

[LuckyLloyd]

Theres clearly a link; I haven't delved too deeply but one of the speakers at the protest outside the Coolock station is recognisable as a member of Eirigi and stood for them in the last local elections. I'm sure there are others as well.

Obviously he is free to protest like everyone else, but it does make it easy to link the protests with dissidents (seems reasonable enough to call Eirigi a dissident and sinister group).

Wackjobs showing up at things does not mean they are the drivers / organisers of things or that the majority at those things aren't reasonable / peaceful / normal / etc.

[LuckyLloyd]

Caught me mid-edit. Only in Ireland could you increase the spending from the boom years and call it austerity!


My pacman is because people said exactly the same about the property tax.

Again, did the property tax cause this level of public protest? Did it have this level of revision? Did the gov poll numbers drop so low?

[AndyFatBastard]

But if its right to charge for water its right to charge for water , because the populist politicos have whipped up a frenzy and gullible people who are weary of austerity have bought into their line does not make it wrong to charge for water or lessen the necessity for us to do it.

I agree completely. My point is that focussing on water as the primary issue is the very definition of missing the wood for the trees. Worse than that is ridiculing poor, unemployed people for being poor and unemployed - during a fucking recession! Given all of this, suggesting they are wrong to protest increased taxes which will hit them much harder than anyone else is frankly shameful.

[Denny Crane]

That's one way of looking at it. Another is that the people of Ireland have had their fill of spending cuts and tax hikes

Obv I'm fairly right-wing , and I think so is the BBV thread in general. And I think it's easy to mock Paul Murphy's approach of less taxes and more spending for all; but for the more left leaning inhabitants what would you like to change?

The current situation we have a deficit, social protection makes up 40% of current spending, heath 26%, we've one of the most progressive income tax setups in the world, high earnings pay the vast majority of tax (that easy to trot out phase "the people who earn more should pay more" should really be "the people who pay for everything should pay for this too").

Presumably you want a higher tax take and higher spending, but not water charges/property tax? Where do you want it to come from and where should it go?

Sub 20k pay practically nothing. Should that change?
The higher rate (presumably aimed at high earners) kicks in at 34k? Is that too low?
The marginal rate is over 50%. Is that too low?
12.5% corporation tax should be changed?
33% CGT too low?
More vat?

[Strewelpeter]

GMC Sierra is owned by Denis O'Brien
Denis O'Brien is a lead shareholder in the Independent
Independent prints stories implying that dissident Republicans are organising / driving water meter protests

On message much

Direct blocking of meter installations are a small aspect of protesting. ~150k up and down the country took to the streets last weekend to protest peacefully.

At least the standard On Message doubling of the actual number that turned out isn't as bizarre as 200K claim of the totally delusional nutjobs.

[Strewelpeter]

I agree completely. My point is that focussing on water as the primary issue is the very definition of missing the wood for the trees. Worse than that is ridiculing poor, unemployed people for being poor and unemployed - during a fucking recession! Given all of this, suggesting they are wrong to protest increased taxes which will hit them much harder than anyone else is frankly shameful.

I never got a sense that anyone was being ridiculed for being poor or unemployed, I thought if there was ridicule it was for being wrong and stupid.

How does this charge hit the poor disproportionately? or rather I should say how might it because we still do not know how it will be implemented and what supports will be available. If it is not metered than I suppose there is an argument to say it would be unfair.

[Denny Crane]

Again, did the property tax cause this level of public protest? Did it have this level of revision? Did the gov poll numbers drop so low?

No there wasn't as large of a protest but it was still there, along with government climb-downs but in the end the hard-line protesters related and paid up. I would truly surprised if the same didn't happen here.

[LuckyLloyd]

No there wasn't as large of a protest but it was still there, along with government climb-downs but in the end the hard-line protesters related and paid up. I would truly surprised if the same didn't happen here.

There wasn't anything like the same level of protest and opposition, and nothing quite like a move from 'non payment will see service reduced to trickle' to 'non payment suffers no adverse service'.

[Denny Crane]

Has that been set in stone?

[AndyFatBastard]

Obv I'm fairly right-wing

That would be a little bit of an understatement.

and I think so is the BBV thread in general. And I think it's easy to mock Paul Murphy's approach of less taxes and more spending for all; but for the more left leaning inhabitants what would you like to change?

I personally am in favour of metered water, as it gives people an incentive to reduce consumption of a limited and expensive resource. It will also provide direct investment in an area of state expenditure that is capable of producing easy cost savings through increased efficiency.

[LuckyLloyd]

Has that been set in stone?

No, and I'm sure it will be easy to row back on from a political perspective next year.

[Strewelpeter]

There wasn't anything like the same level of protest and opposition, and nothing quite like a move from 'non payment will see service reduced to trickle' to 'non payment suffers no adverse service'.

Waste charges are a much better comparison.

Hysterical wrongheaded action by populists (SF in the van) lead dumb punters into trouble including criminal charges and debt. And the outcome a privatised waste collection service.
WP

[Keane]

It's all very frustrating considering what a good thing water metering would be for everyone.

[luckforsome]

So I ordered this lovely pair of shoes for 100e, they were late shipping so he sent me 30e back.

Now two pairs have arrived. le sigh. Time to be a hotspur

...pics of spare pair your selling please...

[Strewelpeter]

That would be a little bit of an understatement.

.

Would it really though?
IMO virtually everyone that I hear claiming to be a socialist hasn't a fucking clue what they are on about and are more often on than not overprivileged people who are off on some uber patronising deluded adolescent version of helping the Mother Teresa type helping poor ego trip.

[DeadParrot]

Waste charges are a much better comparison.

Hysterical wrongheaded action by populists (SF in the van) lead dumb punters into trouble including criminal charges and debt. And the outcome a privatised waste collection service.
WP

But that is part of it too.
I sincerely believe that a large part of the ire is down to the fact that future privatization seems to be all but a given.

[DeadParrot]

Would it really though?
IMO virtually everyone that I hear claiming to be a socialist hasn't a fucking clue what they are on about and are more often on than not overprivileged people who are off on some uber patronising deluded adolescent version of helping the Mother Teresa type helping poor ego trip.

I sometimes wonder if I am getting more and more conservative as I get older. It kinda frightens me that I've lost the spark of righteous anger and am more prone to talk down (at least in my head) to people that don't think the same way I do.

[Iago]

You're confused by my distaste for a ludicrous demonstration of rampant classism?

Sean McDermott Street to Finglas via Ballybrack, I'm not often accused of classism to be fair

I have nothing against the poor who want to better themselves. I have nothing against the unemployed who genuinely don't want to be such.

I still think that for the first time a portion of our population is being asked to pay a tax themselves, not an income tax which they've never had, not a social insurance payment or health charge that was picked up for them nor a property tax which they didn't have to pay.

I think they are the vocal element of the protests, and they and their progeny are those that are popping up in videos intimidating workers trying to go about their jobs, and assaulting and abusing Gardai who are trying to protect them.

Do I think the Government have made a balls of how they have gone about this?

Absolutely.

Do I think that the gombeenism has made it easy for vested interests to have a dig at the Government and in doing so drive support for themselves up and fuck the consequences?

Absolutely.

Do I think that ultimately the burden will be disproportionally placed on those who are deemed to be "earning too much"

As with everything in Ireland absolutely.

My post wasn't about classism, it was about that element of our society who either want all the benefits of a first world nation without having to contribute to it's growth, or those that will continue to use any cause they can to try and get themselves a cushy job without ever trying to make any real difference to the running of the country and what's best for it's inhabitants as a whole rather than the populist issue of the day.

[AndyFatBastard]

I never got a sense that anyone was being ridiculed for being poor or unemployed, I thought if there was ridicule it was for being wrong and stupid.

I think it's practically dripping off the page here, but I will happily admit I'm more sensitive to such things.

How does this charge hit the poor disproportionately? or rather I should say how might it because we still do not know how it will be implemented and what supports will be available. If it is not metered than I suppose there is an argument to say it would be unfair.

All universal, flat charges hit the poor disproportionately. When you take €X/week out of a middle-class person's pocket, you reduce their discretionary spending. When you take €X/week out of a person who doesn't have any discretionary spending, the money comes from elsewhere.

[Raoul Duke III]

Hysterical wrongheaded action by populists (SF in the van)

Ah in fairness to SF, they're hardly in the van. After all, this is the party who managed to fuck up their position on water charges so badly that they lost an by-election that was a 1/10 shot.

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[Zod]

all in single charge per household based on household income and property value for the property tax part, and flat charge for water with a percentage pretax rebate.

Payable to local councils.

The fairest way.

[Strewelpeter]

I think it's practically dripping off the page here, but I will happily admit I'm more sensitive to such things.

I think there is more than a little inverse snobbery going on in these pages, not just you.

All universal, flat charges hit the poor disproportionately. When you take €X/week out of a middle-class person's pocket, you reduce their discretionary spending. When you take €X/week out of a person who doesn't have any discretionary spending, the money comes from elsewhere.

I can't see how water is any different from electricity, diesel, telecoms, road tax etc. in fact without wanting to be accused of being patronising I'd argue that the wealthy disproportionately consume water that the lower income groups currently subsidise for them.

[CHDad]

apparent ll tl'dr DOB used the Indo to force the ra to rape women.

This is one of the worst sentences in the history of English.

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[Strewelpeter]

Ah in fairness to SF, they're hardly in the van. After all, this is the party who managed to fuck up their position on water charges so badly that they lost an by-election that was a 1/10 shot.

Ah no I was talking about way back when the bin charges was the cause du jour before there was any smell of entering government in the air

[Strewelpeter]

But that is part of it too.
I sincerely believe that a large part of the ire is down to the fact that future privatization seems to be all but a given.

But its not in any way shape or form a given... Just because Richard Boyd Barrett says it is doesn't make it so.

[Strewelpeter]

all in single charge per household based on household income and property value for the property tax part, and flat charge for water with a percentage pretax rebate.

Payable to local councils.

The fairest way.

Wat?
Not quite sure if serious

[Zod]

Local councils have been utter failures at managing water. 30 different councils running water networks on a small island is no way to go through life.

Consolidate smaller county councils and have the remaining ones make the payments to Irish water based on population.

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[Zod]

Wat?
Not quite sure if serious

Metering and a charge per unit is ridiculous until such point as our water infrastructure is not leaking a third of its supply.

[LuckyLloyd]

I still think that for the first time a portion of our population is being asked to pay a tax themselves, not an income tax which they've never had, not a social insurance payment or health charge that was picked up for them nor a property tax which they didn't have to pay.

I think they are the vocal element of the protests, and they and their progeny are those that are popping up in videos intimidating workers trying to go about their jobs, and assaulting and abusing Gardai who are trying to protect them.

You still think, you are still wrong. The continued suggestion that the protests are lead / driven by a majority of unemployed thugs is frankly embarrassing.

Like you, I currently pay for water via income tax, etc. I support the protests. Many more like me support the protests.

Continue to ignore as you wish.