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Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
Ehsan irl. Good player and great craic.
characters in it. Only feels like a couple of years ago. Seem to remember him posting that the game got busted or finished anyway.
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Was watching a segment of the LLS and one of the musicians practically spat out the phrase "victim of male violence" (referencing the murder) Quite a hostile phrase and made me feel a bit defensive tbh, like were all being lumped into the potential ogre category.
Meanwhile theres a murderer on the loose.
Strewel was correct I think, not the time to extend this further than a brutal murder at this point.
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Originally posted by hotspur View Post
Does that sound like being part of a full discussion that I said it would be in the context of i.e. looking at all the sociological conditions giving rise to idiot guys harassing women?
I'm quite comfortable in my view that we live in a hypersexualised society that has numerous negative consequences. We get overly aroused generally in our society, and sexual arousal is part of it. I think our arousal society is problematic.
And yes I think some part of that includes clothes worn. I know what it's like to spend weeks on retreat where all clothes worn by everyone are loose non-revealing clothes. And I have been surprised to notice the effect that has on preventing sexual thoughts and arousal. It goes down and down. Obviously there's no media too.
I observe my mind states, and when I notice sexual orientated mind states arising when walking down the street in the city centre I know what conditions it. And it isn't the mere presence of women. I would prefer not to have this as what my mind is partially conditioned by.
I'm a guy and what that entails, I don't always look away as much as I think I should, but some of it is objectively due to fashion choices that accentuate the appearance of sexual attractiveness.
I appreciate that I'm unusual in this respect, of preferring to have a mind not conditioned by sensual desire left, right, and centre. And I'm not saying that women should or should not do anything that has to do with what I wish. I'm merely pointing out that there are consequences.
For every person who wishes not to crave or grasp after such mental states there are ten thousand who will. Most just internally crave, but some will externally grasp (act).
Anyway, I hope that gives more context to what I'm getting at.
Ok, let's accept the idea that a woman’s choice of outfit can make her responsible for her own assault. For the sake of discussion, let's accept that women can dress in a way that causes such a powerful sexual arousal response in a man, he’s stimulated beyond the limits of his self-control. The woman made the decision to look like she does, the man didn’t have any choice about becoming so aroused, so the fault lies with her. Legally, this doesn’t work at all, but let's not worry about that for now.
So where do we go from here. Why don't we men come up with a dress code for women in everyday settings. Problem solved. Any ideas on what types of outfits might be acceptable lads?
Then again a woman may choose to wear an alluring outfit, but it’s still the man’s choice to grope her without permission or invitation. No?
Sexual arousal may be a powerful thing, but as you know, the brain has many processes that counter it. When you’re aroused or excited by an opportunity, particularly a sexual one, which won’t have great long-term consequences, the brain is capable of kicking in and saying “this isn’t a good idea, don’t do it”. The brain can determine the appropriateness of arousal in context too. Beautiful naked person standing before you in your bedroom? Sure, be aroused. Beautiful naked person standing before you in the supermarket, clutching a large knife? “Sexy fun time” is the wrong response here.
Let's deal with the real issue, men's inappropriate behavior, and not try "to cover it up".Last edited by Wombatman; 15-01-22, 11:41.Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt
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Originally posted by dinekes View PostStrewel was correct I think, not the time to extend this further than a brutal murder at this point.
Maybe 'all homicidal maniacs need to change' might be a better topic."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Sigh.
Have to say this is pretty frustrating. How really smart guys have trouble grasping a point.
This murder has shone a light on a wider issue. Women's perception of risk, and their fears. On reflection I don't think SP is correct to say it's not the time to discuss it. It's absolutely the time.
The fact that Ashling Murphy was running during daylight hours has shone the light and made the wider topic of women's safety a talking point.
I'm making a simple point. Reaching out to good guys like all of you to be aware of that perception of risk and realise you can contribute to it if you don't have that awareness. To just be mindful of it in certain situations.
Depressing me a little that I'm meeting a lot of resistance and only two guys here have backed me up.
You won't change the behaviour of dangerous scumbags. I'm not interested in them.
I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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I spoke to a woman at parkrun this morning who was telling me she was followed by a guy on her run in Corkagh park a couple of months ago. A woman she knows was attacked in the same park last year.
Dobby yesterday mentioned he witnessed some creep tracking his sister.
Yes the perception of risk outweighs the risk itself but not by an awful lot.I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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Triple sigh . If we werent being bombarded on every current form of media at the moment id say we need to raise awateness . However ....
Other subject.
Anyone any pointers to cure my increasing fear of flying. Despite 100s of flights i think im getting worse . Not hypnosis though. Only Britney in a mini skirt can do that. (Oooops)
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Wombatman I am not talking about women being assaulted, you are. I think I have made it clear that I'm not talking about that, but that I'm talking about a wider point. I said in my first post this wasn't a good time to talk about it. Because there'll be people like you who will just relate it what was in the news.
I can't tell if I have been unclear or you're only reading what your want to read. But with respect I don't wish to spend any more time on it.
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Originally posted by Solksjaer! View PostTriple sigh . If we werent being bombarded on every current form of media at the moment id say we need to raise awateness . However ....
Why not 'Yeah, good point, I do those things myself, hopefully now more lads will that haven't realised'?
Am I being condescending?
I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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Originally posted by Lazare View Post
I'm making a simple point. Reaching out to good guys like all of you to be aware of that perception of risk and realise you can contribute to it if you don't have that awareness. To just be mindful of it in certain situations.
Depressing me a little that I'm meeting a lot of resistance and only two guys here have backed me up.
The problem is that none of that changes actual risk or actual crime though.
The examples that the likes of Dobby and Tar have mentioned are truly depressing, shocking really. I think the problem is that these people know they will get away with it. They need to be brought to account for their actions - how though is the problem.
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Originally posted by Lazare View Post
But why so defensive? Feels like what I'm suggesting is threatening somehow.
Why not 'Yeah, good point, I do those things myself, hopefully now more lads will that haven't realised'?
Am I being condescending?
Just a possibility."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by Lazare View Post
But why so defensive? Feels like what I'm suggesting is threatening somehow.
Why not 'Yeah, good point, I do those things myself, hopefully now more lads will that haven't realised'?
Am I being condescending?
My broader feelings on the subject as discarded so the narrative is tedious to me. Like i said WE KNOW
Not a bit defensive though as im an enabler for the women in my life so im not the target in my view .
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Originally posted by Lazare View PostI also think it's fanciful to believe all or most good guys have awareness of this."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
For me anyway (husband, father of two girls), I think my behaviour towards women is both respectful and appropriate and I have no intention of changing it.
Maybe I am preaching mostly to the choir in here, or maybe it will land with soneone. It's certainly not a waste of my time.I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Post
For me anyway (husband, father of two girls), I think my behaviour towards women is both respectful and appropriate and I have no intention of changing it.I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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Originally posted by hotspur View PostWombatman I am not talking about women being assaulted, you are. I think I have made it clear that I'm not talking about that, but that I'm talking about a wider point. I said in my first post this wasn't a good time to talk about it. Because there'll be people like you who will just relate it what was in the news.
I can't tell if I have been unclear or you're only reading what your want to read. But with respect I don't wish to spend any more time on it.
I think the suggestion that I have gone off on some random tangent is unfair. If you don't want to address the points I have raised, fair enough, but don't dress it up as something else (excuse the unintentional pun).Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt
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Originally posted by Dice75 View Post
Just describing the only times i've ever felt slightly uneasy (or unsafe) which for me as a man would only occur at night. Obviously for women this can occur at any time of the day/night in far wider reaching circumstances."We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil
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Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View Post
Its just the obvious culprit of drinking in your story is widely defended as a charming national characteristic. Yet, it seems the nub of the problem. ... if we are looking for solutions.
It's a similar thing in Northern Ireland. Mixed religious schooling is the key to a long term solution.I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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Getting rid of single gender schools is a solution, as it removes the sense of otherness that pervades Irish societal approaches to genders.
Reducing the culture of excessive drinking is a solution, as it reduces the high-risk times of bad behaviour.
Lighting up walking areas is a good short-term solution, as it increases visibility of potential risks.
Crossing the road is a horrible solution that ingrains fear and distance, and doesn't address underlying causes. Indeed it increases the sense of difference between the genders - which is precisely what we need to address. The risk of quick solutions is that they end up doing more harm than good, when we don't take the time to think through their unintended consequences.
Now it probably still needs to be done, as its a direct ask of the opposite gender. But I think its the wrong way of approaching things.
"We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil
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Originally posted by Lazare View Post
Your comment about mixed schooling was the best long term solution I've heard.
It's a similar thing in Northern Ireland. Mixed religious schooling is the key to a long term solution."We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil
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Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View Post
Its just the obvious culprit of drinking in your story is widely defended as a charming national characteristic. Yet, it seems the nub of the problem. ... if we are looking for solutions.
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Good posts Hitch. I don't really agree about short term mitigation being harmful or contributing to segregation.
In my own experience whenever I cross the street or run onto the road the woman tends to notice and realise why I've done it. I almost always get an appreciative nod or a good morning.I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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Maybe the solution then is for groups of friends to have a word with the friend who consistently becomes inappropriate after too many beers. Although that doesn't fix the problem where all the group of friends turn inappropriate! Maybe also there's a fine line between Dutch courage and inappropriate. There's acceptable behaviour in Coppers that wouldn't pan out well in the workplace."We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil
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Originally posted by Lazare View Post
Suggesting behaviour change from men while also telling women the clothes they were make them somewhat culpable is not avoiding double standards. It's ironic hypocrisy.
Women can wear whatever the fuck they want. It's up to you to control your sexual urge.
Women don't wear clothes with you mind.
I love to debate this as it is a interesting topics. But I tried to formulate a response but this medium is not really the most suitable for this as hard to put down one thoughts properly. I half started a response 6 times but gave up as hard to be concise as points can go across badly.
I don't disagree with your initial point by the way, men behaviours do need to change i.e. crossing the streets etc... But why stop there, we should be calling out on women sexual objectification where we see it so to cut it down as it absolutely rampant, even on here.
For example, someone made a joke about needing a picture of laz's wife running to make a judgement call. Yes it was a joke, but I didn't see anyone calling him out on. Asking for a woman picture is a fairly common joke here and permitted with nobody calling them out. If we were serious about challenging men behaviours, why do nobody call these out? As long as these jokes continue we are silently saying sexual objectification is ok.
It is a terrible indictment of us tbf but sadly it is a reality of the society we live in and as long as we live in that type of society women do need to be aware of that and dress accordingly to reduce the perceived risk to themselves. They do anyway, when they they pick out an outfit to wear, in the same way men do when they consider if the clothing they select is appropriate for whatever the occasion is, the risk is a factor they do consider.
Last edited by pokerhand; 15-01-22, 15:02.No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity, but I know none, therefore am no beast.
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Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View PostMaybe the solution then is for groups of friends to have a word with the friend who consistently becomes inappropriate after too many beers. Although that doesn't fix the problem where all the group of friends turn inappropriate! Maybe also there's a fine line between Dutch courage and inappropriate. There's acceptable behaviour in Coppers that wouldn't pan out well in the workplace.
Obv there are loud fringe voices on Twitter asking for a lot more extreme things and painting all men as drooling out of control sex pests - possibly as a result of bad interactions with terrible men.
Big changes in education for teenage boys around consent and respect for women which wasn’t part of it when I was young. The next generation should be better than ours as a result.
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Good post pokerhand. I hope I don't offend you with this but sometimes you make clumsily worded posts, but then again that could be a me thing, in terms of comprehending your point.
I 100% disagree with the notion that women should be careful how they dress though. This is not on them at all. Should a female runner not wear shorts for instance? A girl in a gym, should she not wear lycra, typical workout wear?
Women don't typically wear clothes to be sexualky attractive. They wear them to be comfortable, or to feel good about themselves.
It's absolutely wrong to suggest they should change those behaviours to limit male advances. The fact that it causes unwanted attention is not on them to fix.I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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Oh, with regard to Ole's joke, I knew exactly where it was coming from. It was funny irony, typical Irish 'lighten the mood' humour.
I think that's ok and wouldn't pull him up on it. I laughed at it.
There are jokes we need to maybe begin pulling people up on. I don't feel that was one of them.I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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By they way Laz your point struck a chord with me as that is something I have done for pretty much most of my life ie keeping my distance from strange women, expecially on buses, when I go on a bus I go out of my way to avoid sitting beside women unless they are grandmother types. I have always being conscious of that, and it always saddens me that I have to be that conscious, but it is a reality of the society we are in
WHich reminded me of something that happened about 20 years ago in Dublin when I was a student. Was sitting on the back row of the lower level of a double bus when this women hopped on and sat near me. She was in her 40s with massive bruises all over her face and under her eyes. Her bruises were maybe a couple days old and the whole time on my trip she sat alone and was crying silently. I must have been on that bus with her for 30 mins or so till I got to my stop but not once person approached her to ask if she was ok or if they could help. I didn't do anything myself as was honestly not sure what was the best thing to do as wasnt even sure then how I could help.
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity, but I know none, therefore am no beast.
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Originally posted by Lazare View PostGood post pokerhand. I hope I don't offend you with this but sometimes you make clumsily worded posts, but then again that could be a me thing, in terms of comprehending your point.
I 100% disagree with the notion that women should be careful how they dress though. This is not on them at all. Should a female runner not wear shorts for instance? A girl in a gym, should she not wear lycra, typical workout wear?
Women don't typically wear clothes to be sexualky attractive. They wear them to be comfortable, or to feel good about themselves.
It's absolutely wrong to suggest they should change those behaviours to limit male advances. The fact that it causes unwanted attention is not on them to fix.
Hope didn't cause offence as none was intended.No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity, but I know none, therefore am no beast.
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Originally posted by Lazare View PostGood post pokerhand. I hope I don't offend you with this but sometimes you make clumsily worded posts, but then again that could be a me thing, in terms of comprehending your point.
I 100% disagree with the notion that women should be careful how they dress though. This is not on them at all. Should a female runner not wear shorts for instance? A girl in a gym, should she not wear lycra, typical workout wear?
Women don't typically wear clothes to be sexualky attractive. They wear them to be comfortable, or to feel good about themselves.
It's absolutely wrong to suggest they should change those behaviours to limit male advances. The fact that it causes unwanted attention is not on them to fix."We're not f*cking Burundi" - Big Phil
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Originally posted by Lazare View PostGood post pokerhand. I hope I don't offend you with this but sometimes you make clumsily worded posts, but then again that could be a me thing, in terms of comprehending your point.
I 100% disagree with the notion that women should be careful how they dress though. This is not on them at all. Should a female runner not wear shorts for instance? A girl in a gym, should she not wear lycra, typical workout wear?
Women don't typically wear clothes to be sexualky attractive. They wear them to be comfortable, or to feel good about themselves.
It's absolutely wrong to suggest they should change those behaviours to limit male advances. The fact that it causes unwanted attention is not on them to fix.
That where I would have thought make sense, both men and women should change or neither of them do. Just seems unfair to be asking just one set to change.
No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity, but I know none, therefore am no beast.
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Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View PostI don't want to live in a world where we can't ask laz for pics of his wife.No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity, but I know none, therefore am no beast.
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I'm looking to buy a Buddhist statue from the UK as a present for someone. It'll be over three hundred quid, and I was looking for a way to get it without all the customs and double vat paying etc. which jack up the cost to the point of not being viable.
So I thought to get it sent to the North, but I don't know anyone in the North, so I found a place in Derry that acts like a Parcel Motel type thing.
It sounds like a classy operation, one option people have in Donegal is to pick their package up in Buncrana in a car park one evening from 6:10-6:20pm.
Let me tell you I once bought a framed Laurent Fignon picture for my brother for his new house. Fast forward a few years later I seen the picture in the largely unused box room on the ground leaning against the wall. I didnt ask.
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Originally posted by pokerhand View Post
Can we spin that arguement from the other point of view. Why should men cross street to make the woman feel safer. The average man is just there for a walk and not to sexually objectify women, so why should he change his behaviour, as it not his fault how that woman perceive men.
That where I would have thought make sense, both men and women should change or neither of them do. Just seems unfair to be asking just one set to change.
Women are already modifying their behaviour, not venturing out alone at night. Texting their location to friends when getting a taxi, not wearing what they want to wear, etc etc.
I think it's unfair to ask them to be more responsible and it's easy for us to be.I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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Just spent 70 minutes running around a field with a bunch of ladies in very short skirts (insert Benny Hill music). They submitted to my manly discipline but I was the subject of numerous female micro-aggressions. The eye-rolling. The muttered comments. They didn't even offer to buy me a drink afterwards.
Feeling pretty triggered right now.
#MeTwo. #Middle class white men are people too."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by Lazare View Post
I suppose because it's not an inconvenience and is a simple act.
Women are already modifying their behaviour, not venturing out alone at night. Texting their location to friends when getting a taxi, not wearing what they want to wear, etc etc.
I think it's unfair to ask them to be more responsible and it's easy for us to be.
Not to say we should’t push for less leering but assault, rape or murder isn’t because of bad manners.
It should have some impact on dubious consent situations and overall make the world a nicer place so it’s worth doing. I don’t think the 2 should be wrapped up neatly together tho. Weakens the argument massively IMO.
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First they came at our "pics"gag...whats next ? Cant ask what colour the laptop is...
Thems jokes Pokerhand, in a nutshell, you either get them or you don't. Life is already too serious.
On the other hand...if you brought up my "mind the gap" hilarious post a while back, then, yes...guilty as charged.This too shall pass.
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Originally posted by RichieM View Post
Convincing guys to stop leering isn’t going to replace women’s need to be careful.
Not to say we should’t push for less leering but assault, rape or murder isn’t because of bad manners.
It should have some impact on dubious consent situations and overall make the world a nicer place so it’s worth doing. I don’t think the 2 should be wrapped up neatly together tho. Weakens the argument massively IMO.
I'm just talking about simple things good guys can do. That's all.I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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Originally posted by oleras View PostFirst they came at our "pics"gag...whats next ? Cant ask what colour the laptop is...
Thems jokes Pokerhand, in a nutshell, you either get them or you don't. Life is already too serious.
On the other hand...if you brought up my "mind the gap" hilarious post a while back, then, yes...guilty as charged.No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity, but I know none, therefore am no beast.
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For some light hearted music from across Europe. one clearly to be played at the vigil. Feel free to come and vote from favorite to least favorite
music king round 7
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Originally posted by rounders123 View PostI would advise caution buying statues and pictures for people mostly because they are very picky about what they want to display in their home(particularly the other half ].
I was out for a walk with a friend this afternoon and he brought up the issue of trying to come across non-threateningly to women. He asked does the fact he wears glasses make him less threatening. I reckoned it did.
He said he sometimes wants to strike up a conversation with a woman in a waiting room or whatever and he makes sure to drop in a mention of his boyfriend as soon as possible.
He asked if I do anything to seem less threatening, and I said I'm a delightful sprite who is not seen as a physical threat to anyone!
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I remember in the late 90s in a well known night club as i was passing by the bar some fiesty gal grabbed me by the balls and said I bet you'd love me to sit on your face. TBH I wasnt really fazed however i did say . If that was the other way around id be turfed out of here pronto. YEAH AND RIGHTLY SO , her words . My mate shrugged his shoulders and hit me with his perennial cliche . Thats women for ya. Ive a few other experiences . I do have another friend who needs to be more self aware when talkingvto women
Any you guys been to Newcastle or Liverpool on a night out. The behaviour of both sexes are shocking. If anything the women shade it. Personal experience.
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Originally posted by hotspur View Post
Oh I'm with you on this. I have for a few years now been referring to buying a picture as a gift "an act of violence". But I'm on safe ground on this one.
I was out for a walk with a friend this afternoon and he brought up the issue of trying to come across non-threateningly to women. He asked does the fact he wears glasses make him less threatening. I reckoned it did.
He said he sometimes wants to strike up a conversation with a woman in a waiting room or whatever and he makes sure to drop in a mention of his boyfriend as soon as possible.
He asked if I do anything to seem less threatening, and I said I'm a delightful sprite who is not seen as a physical threat to anyone!
Remember once or twice on nights out telling girls I was gay too.I hold silver in tit for tat, and I love you for that
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2022 Multi Sport Competition is now open for entries.
Simply predict the winners of the biggest sporting events of the year, and score points. Most points at the end of the year wins the money and the bragging rights currently held by Premierstone.
2022 Multi Sport Competition - Irish Poker Boards
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Originally posted by hotspur View Post
Oh I'm with you on this. I have for a few years now been referring to buying a picture as a gift "an act of violence". But I'm on safe ground on this one.
I was out for a walk with a friend this afternoon and he brought up the issue of trying to come across non-threateningly to women. He asked does the fact he wears glasses make him less threatening. I reckoned it did.
He said he sometimes wants to strike up a conversation with a woman in a waiting room or whatever and he makes sure to drop in a mention of his boyfriend as soon as possible.
He asked if I do anything to seem less threatening, and I said I'm a delightful sprite who is not seen as a physical threat to anyone!No beast so fierce but knows some touch of pity, but I know none, therefore am no beast.
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Originally posted by hotspur View PostHe asked if I do anything to seem less threatening, and I said I'm a delightful sprite who is not seen as a physical threat to anyone!
If you weren't a peaceable Buddhist of course.
"We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by Lazare View Post
Just realised I do that a lot too, mention my wife at the beginning of a chat.
Originally posted by Lazare View PostRemember once or twice on nights out telling girls I was gay too."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by hotspur View Post
He asked if I do anything to seem less threatening, and I said I'm a delightful sprite who is not seen as a physical threat to anyone!Last edited by ComradeCollie; 15-01-22, 19:33.Gone full 'Glinner' since June 2022.
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Originally posted by Solksjaer! View PostI remember in the late 90s in a well known night club as i was passing by the bar some fiesty gal grabbed me by the balls and said I bet you'd love me to sit on your face. TBH I wasnt really fazed however i did say . If that was the other way around id be turfed out of here pronto. YEAH AND RIGHTLY SO , her words . My mate shrugged his shoulders and hit me with his perennial cliche . Thats women for ya. Ive a few other experiences . I do have another friend who needs to be more self aware when talkingvto women
Any you guys been to Newcastle or Liverpool on a night out. The behaviour of both sexes are shocking. If anything the women shade it. Personal experience.
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