Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - Lockdown City

[Kayroo]

As you know the Barr Tribunal was charged with investigating the facts and circumstances surrounding the fatal shooting of John Carty. Have a look at all the factors Barr considered relevant, and then tell me that, how Nkencho came to possess the knife, is not relevant.

With all the clamor around the shooting, I expect we will see a similar inquiry in this case. We shall see what factors are considered.

If you are happy to boil everything down to "You wave a knife at the cops, you get shot....simples" then so be it.

First - trying to reduce my view to such a silly line is transparent. Don’t do that.

Secondly, the Abbeylara case was a siege. The factors are entirely different and the circumstances aren’t even remotely comparable. I am very well aware of the Barr Report so why don’t you tell me what lessons from that mean the manner in which he came to be in possession of the knife is relevant?

[Lao Lao]

I have to admit despite all the snickering here today that my immediate response to the story and the 'they couldn't subdue him so had to shoot him' bit was also 'why the fuck don't they have nets'.

Every so often, you remind us, that long ago, you were the Luke to Strewel's Obi-Wan Kenobi

[Wombatman]

First - trying to reduce my view to such a silly line is transparent. Don’t do that.

Secondly, the Abbeylara case was a siege. The factors are entirely different and the circumstances aren’t even remotely comparable. I am very well aware of the Barr Report so why don’t you tell me what lessons from that mean the manner in which he came to be in possession of the knife is relevant?

Sorry about the obvious pop. I'm getting more than a little frustrated by this.

Of course the factors are different. Why are you being deliberately obtuse? There are factors to be considered nonetheless.

So the "mean and manner of possession" is sometimes relevant, yes?

Barr considered the "Suicide by Cop' scenario? Might possession of the knife, prior to entering the shop, speak of intent, or give a indication of the state of mind of Nkencho on the day?

Remember we are discussing the facts and circumstances surrounding the shooting, not just the shooting itself.

[oleras]

Covjan4.JPG

As Donald says, stop bloody testing and the numbers will go down !

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

I hope the plan isn't that as soon as all the old people are vaccinated we should all go out and walk around getting infected. Like I want the virus wiped out, not just that it stops killing old people.

Seems its all about the Astra-Zeneca goodness. For holidays, I'd say June bookings will lead to heartbreak, but may as a result have the best value. August flights, hotels, everything are going to cost the absolute moon.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

Surely Trump can't have lost them the two senate seats. That would be hilarious. Still too early to know anything obv - but that's nearly half the votes counted!

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

Put a bit of cash on Perdue (Republicans) to win at 3.5. Seems far too generous given they have only counted the early votes so far.

[Trippie]

Part of me believes he wants them to lose, helps the next campaign if whole sale changes enacted. Can really play up the divide and disappointments Vs trying to make changes and Mitch blocking everything.

Especially if a black woman appointed to supreme court.

[Mellor]

So the executioner should perhaps remember his duty is to protect ALL life . I really doubt it would be an issue in countries where life is cheap I dont think we are there yet (ganglands aside) . I hope not but from reading comments online , we really have regressed . As Clint said . Hell of a thing , killing a man

Protecting Life is exactly why the trigger was pulled. Surprised this needs to yo pointed out.

[Mellor]

So the "mean and manner of possession" is sometimes relevant, yes?

Means and manner is possession is relevant to the overall case as a matter of factual record.
But I’m not sure why you think it’s relevant to the endgame, or actions anyone took.

I think we all agree that when AGS/ASU are in scene, he has a knife. As it escalated, they attempted pepperspray, tazer, warning shots, followed by shooting.

How should they have acted differently if he;
a) brought the knife with him
b) acquired the knife after the initial altercation.

[Guest]

I hope the plan isn't that as soon as all the old people are vaccinated we should all go out and walk around getting infected. Like I want the virus wiped out, not just that it stops killing old people.

Seems its all about the Astra-Zeneca goodness. For holidays, I'd say June bookings will lead to heartbreak, but may as a result have the best value. August flights, hotels, everything are going to cost the absolute moon.

My thoughts pre Xmas was that reopening the country should have been pegged against some sort of vaccination rate.
That remains my opinion and is the approach I hope they take.

Once frontline workers, vulnerable, over 65 and perhaps Gardai/teachers are vaccinated then I can get on board with people largely taking ownership of their own decisions.

Im not suggesting a total reopening but instead of case numbers dictating how we move through “levels”, the primary component should be x% of the above sub-groups and then case rates/hospitalisation/R number considered.

I know you and others have largely dismissed the government at fault narrative which I understand but I think they bowed to sentimentality when reopening the country.
They shouldn’t be directly blamed for the case numbers but they can be blamed for diverging substantially from the medical advice for no other reason than public pressure during a holiday period.

[Solksjaer!]

Protecting Life is exactly why the trigger was pulled. Surprised this needs to yo pointed out.

I think the word ALL is missing from your reading of my post

have a think about that .

[Raoul Duke III]

Put a bit of cash on Perdue (Republicans) to win at 3.5. Seems far too generous given they have only counted the early votes so far.

Networks are calling it 2-0 for the Dems (at least you and I are back on form with our political punditry).

That gives, by a senatorial ball hair, Biden control of the Hill. He can get shit done now.

[Dice75]

Sorry about the obvious pop. I'm getting more than a little frustrated by this.

Of course the factors are different. Why are you being deliberately obtuse? There are factors to be considered nonetheless.

So the "mean and manner of possession" is sometimes relevant, yes?

Barr considered the "Suicide by Cop' scenario? Might possession of the knife, prior to entering the shop, speak of intent, or give a indication of the state of mind of Nkencho on the day?

Remember we are discussing the facts and circumstances surrounding the shooting, not just the shooting itself.

He had a knife on him going into the shop.

[Raoul Duke III]

Ah yes, a bit more investigation reveals Warnock ahead of the (incredibly horrible) Loeffler by 40k votes and Ossoff ahead of Purdue by a mere 3,600.

But with striking similarity to the presidential election, the few votes yet to be counted are from the Atlanta metropolitan area, which is 80% Democrat. It's done.

So that means Trump lost even more bigly. On another positive note, this will surely encourage the GOP to dump the crazy man. Or even better, tear themselves apart over him.

[Raoul Duke III]

So Georgia has elected a black preacher (from the same church as Martin Luther King) and a Jewish activist to the Senate.

The South doesn't look like the South no more. Like, Georgia is where Richard Russell came from (held back Civil Rights legislation for decades in the Senate). And the infamous Lester Maddox.

[Solksjaer!]

Ah yes, a bit more investigation reveals Warnock ahead of the (incredibly horrible) Loeffler by 40k votes and Ossoff ahead of Purdue by a mere 3,600.

But with striking similarity to the presidential election, the few votes yet to be counted are from the Atlanta metropolitan area, which is 80% Democrat. It's done.

So that means Trump lost even more bigly. On another positive note, this will surely encourage the GOP to dump the crazy man. Or even better, tear themselves apart over him.

The GOP and their cowardly handling and support of Trump has been one of the most idiotic miscalculations in modern US political history . The big worry is the rock has been lifted and every racist nutjob that crawled out will not let go of Trumpism. Atrocities await. On the plus side 'most' people reject his reign of blather.

[ComradeCollie]

So that means Trump lost even more bigly. On another positive note, this will surely encourage the GOP to dump the crazy man. Or even better, tear themselves apart over him.

[Lazare]

Incredible news to wake up to. So happy to see that geebag Loeffler beaten.

Ossof to bring it home now. Incredible fun ahead.

[Raoul Duke III]

Incredible news to wake up to. So happy to see that geebag Loeffler beaten.

Ossof to bring it home now. Incredible fun ahead.

One of her big campaign slogans was 'I'm to the right of Genghis Khan!'

She'll just have to comfort herself with her extremely large fortune.

[Lazare]

Trump destroying Mike Pence is also delicious.

[Raoul Duke III]

Trump destroying Mike Pence is also delicious.

Should be some good theatre tonight when Congress certifies.

If you read the Woodward book, Pence is always portrayed as the guy who takes people aside after Trump has gone off on a rant\done something crazy, looks into their eyes and says 'this will pass'. Which in my view makes him even more dangerous. The Bormann to Trump's Hitler if you will.

[Raoul Duke III]

Incredible news to wake up to. So happy to see that geebag Loeffler beaten.

Ossof to bring it home now. Incredible fun ahead.

Ossoff now over 12k ahead.

[Keane]

Ah yes, a bit more investigation reveals Warnock ahead of the (incredibly horrible) Loeffler by 40k votes and Ossoff ahead of Purdue by a mere 3,600.

But with striking similarity to the presidential election, the few votes yet to be counted are from the Atlanta metropolitan area, which is 80% Democrat. It's done.

So that means Trump lost even more bigly. On another positive note, this will surely encourage the GOP to dump the crazy man. Or even better, tear themselves apart over him.

What great news to start the day with

[Raoul Duke III]

What great news to start the day with

The vote leads are growing by the minute too as the heavily blue Atlanta counties finish up. Ossoff now has a bigger lead (16k) than Biden won the state with and Warnock is out of sight.

Looking forward to more refusal to concede and vote rigging conspiracy theories today.

[Keane]

Should be some good theatre tonight when Congress certifies.

If you read the Woodward book, Pence is always portrayed as the guy who takes people aside after Trump has gone off on a rant\done something crazy, looks into their eyes and says 'this will pass'. Which in my view makes him even more dangerous. The Bormann to Trump's Hitler if you will.

I've yet to start that because I haven't been able to stomach it while it's all been still happening. I hope it will be a bit cathartic in the aftermath.

Agree with the sentiment on Pence. Those career politicians in the GOP who have used Trump opportunistically are the pits.

[Keane]

The vote leads are growing by the minute too as the heavily blue Atlanta counties finish up. Ossoff now has a bigger lead (16k) than Biden won the state with and Warnock is out of sight.

Looking forward to more refusal to concede and vote rigging conspiracy theories today.

Yeah hook it to my vains

[Lazare]

What's great about this compared to Nov 3rd is the surprise. Seemed such a long shot back then.

[Raoul Duke III]

What's great about this compared to Nov 3rd is the surprise. Seemed such a long shot back then.

Purdue nearly won his Senate outright on 03-Nov don't forget. He must really be kicking himself today.

[Gimmeabreak]

People (can't recall exactly who - maybe Strewel) bought some knife sharpening stones at the start of December - any reports back

[Raoul Duke III]

Jon Ossoff will be the youngest Democrat elected to the US Senate since....every correct guess gets a banana

SPOILER

Joe Biden in 1973
original.jpg

[Guest]

Obviously addressing COVID in the most pressing issue but this result gives Biden administration a huge opportunity to roll back the Trump administrations Climate Change policies which is probably where he did the most long term damage.

[Kayroo]

I think the word ALL is missing from your reading of my post

have a think about that .

Your position on this is completely wrong and entirely unworkable. You’re effectively saying there’s no circumstances ever where a Garda can justifiably shoot a person. Is that right?

[Emmet]

emotional pornography.

Mam is hooked, think she's on season 3 having started on Christmas day.

SatNav This is Us update

D'Mudder has completed all rest of the available episodes. However, as it's a new episode every week now, and she can't just click next, she has thrown a temper tantrum and apparently hates it.

[Kayroo]

Purdue nearly won his Senate outright on 03-Nov don't forget. He must really be kicking himself today.

The GOP should be bricking it at the way this panned out. Depressed turnout on the GOP side seems to suggest Trump has made them feel the elections are pointless and/or that a Trump slate without Trump doesn’t work.

That should be very worrying for 2022.

[mcnugget]

So Georgia has elected a black preacher (from the same church as Martin Luther King) and a Jewish activist to the Senate.

The South doesn't look like the South no more. Like, Georgia is where Richard Russell came from (held back Civil Rights legislation for decades in the Senate). And the infamous Lester Maddox.

It must be the Caro influence, my first thought this morning was that Richard Russell will be spinning in his grave.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

Best money ever lost. Fingers crossed.

[Solksjaer!]

Your position on this is completely wrong and entirely unworkable. You’re effectively saying there’s no circumstances ever where a Garda can justifiably shoot a person. Is that right?

For a man who needs to have a great deal of comprehension of these subjects you sure do gloss over my main points.

1. I've been talking specifically about this instance.
2. The death of this man was avoidable
3. The coppers job is also to protect ALL life .

Shooting at his body mass to take down a civilian with a crude knife was not protecting all life adequately . This is my view on it and the remit for armed police should be to avoid administering a death penalty unless there is definite mortal danger . There is a part of me the feels if it were me with the knife I would be alive today .

[Raoul Duke III]

The GOP should be bricking it at the way this panned out. Depressed turnout on the GOP side seems to suggest Trump has made them feel the elections are pointless and/or that a Trump slate without Trump doesn’t work.

That should be very worrying for 2022.

I think that's a bit of a stretch. Remember that Trump got 75 million votes (second largest vote ever and by quite some distance). The turnout in Georgia is absolutely huge on both sides.

I'd say Trump energises a cohort that was politically inactive previously but the offset is that he motivates the other side even more. I wonder in a post-Trump world will political engagement slide back again.

[Raoul Duke III]

Shooting at his body mass to take down a civilian with a crude knife was not protecting all life adequately . This is my view on it and the remit for armed police should be to avoid administering a death penalty unless there is definite mortal danger . There is a part of me the feels if it were me with the knife I would be alive today .

because you would have put it down?

[Dice75]

I see Mick McCarthy didn't last too long in his new job in Cyprus.

[Mellor]

I think the word ALL is missing from your reading of my post
have a think about that .

Can you please elaborate on what you are getting at.

because it almost sounds as if you are saying;
a) In all situations a solutions exists where nobody dies, and/or;
b) The rights conferred by the constitution only do not apply to the Garda at the scene.

Both of which are insane stances to take, so I’m sure that’s not what your getting at.

[dobby]

I see Mick McCarthy didn't last too long in his new job in Cyprus.

And Jack Byrne signed 2 days ago

[Mellor]

1. I've been talking specifically about this instance.
2. The death of this man was avoidable
3. The coppers job is also to protect ALL life

Shooting at his body mass to take down a civilian with a crude knife was not protecting all life adequately . This is my view on it and the remit for armed police should be to avoid administering a death penalty unless there is definite mortal danger . There is a part of me the feels if it were me with the knife I would be alive today .

You can’t retrospectively apply polices to single cases.
If you are saying the should have shot the legs here, they you have to say shoot the legs for all knife attacks.
Which will likely result in more deaths overall.
Charge at somebody with a knife would qualify at mortal danger imo.
Protecting life also allows to the Guards own life and his colleagues.

[Strewelpeter]

There is a person from something called 'Retail Excellence Ireland' claiming that they should be allowed to continue opening shops because people 'down the country' with 'Inhereted' businesses find it too 'daunting' to operate online.
Its almost as if they haven't had a year to prepare and a shitload of stupidly easy to access grants for setting up online shops.
Words fail me

[Raoul Duke III]

You can’t retrospectively apply polices to single cases.
If you are saying the should have shot the legs here, they you have to say shoot the legs for all knife attacks.
Which will likely result in more deaths overall.
Charge at somebody with a knife would qualify at mortal danger imo.
Protecting life also allows to the Guards own life and his colleagues.

It's actually remarkable (and quite impressive) how few fatal shootings by Gardai we have seen down the years. Six in the last 22 years. I imagine this compares very well with any other Western nation.
All 6 were armed, 4 with guns and 2 with knives.

Obviously the fact that our force is largely unarmed is a massively contributing factor but I still think that number is quite impressively low.

Like for example, Sweden had 21 deaths by police shooting in the 2010s alone. And it's a country generally held up as a shining example.

[Strewelpeter]

People (can't recall exactly who - maybe Strewel) bought some knife sharpening stones at the start of December - any reports back

Worked very well in getting the knives sharpened, doing it right probably takes more time than I'd want to spend sharpening knives but its quite zen when you get into doing it.

Bought a set as a present for No2 Son who enjoys cooking and they seem to be a big hit with him.

This is what I got
https://www.knivesandtools.com/en/pt...-rod-sh004.htm

[Solksjaer!]

Busy today. I think ye know what I mean so I'm not arsed to delve further .

[Raoul Duke III]

Worked very well in getting the knives sharpened, doing it right probably takes more time than I'd want to spend sharpening knives but its quite zen when you get into doing it.

Bought a set as a present for No2 Son who enjoys cooking and they seem to be a big hit with him.

This is what I got
https://www.knivesandtools.com/en/pt...-rod-sh004.htm

Just invested in that set, looks great. Suspect my old sharpening stone (which got dropped and has big cracks in it) is more of a hindrance than a help.

[Mellor]

Busy today. I think ye know what I mean so I'm not arsed to delve further .

I do know what you mean. But I think it’s incorrect for the reasons given.
Re-writing history on a case by case basis is simply not realistic. Happy to leave it on that note.

[RichieM]

I hope the plan isn't that as soon as all the old people are vaccinated we should all go out and walk around getting infected. Like I want the virus wiped out, not just that it stops killing old people.

Seems its all about the Astra-Zeneca goodness. For holidays, I'd say June bookings will lead to heartbreak, but may as a result have the best value. August flights, hotels, everything are going to cost the absolute moon.

I presume that the start is slower because you need to go each nursing home but once it gets past the old people stage we will all going to the vaccine if that makes sense.

Well I hope that a sort of industrial vaccination program is on the cards not everyone book a slot with your GP, I heard they were talking with the GAA about using their grounds.

[Guest]

I remember a couple of people here mentioning that they bought one of the D'Longhi Dedica espresso machines before.

I bought one but for some reason the larger 2 cup coffee filter isn't working?

Has anyone else had this in the past? Obviously I've exhausted everything on google to figure this out.

The only thing I can think of now is how coarse the coffee might be but not sure.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

Classic IPB.

GAB throws in a request for a knife sharpening device and the conversation meanders effortlessly between how to sharpen knives and how to shoot knife wielders.

[Raoul Duke III]

I remember a couple of people here mentioning that they bought one of the D'Longhi Dedica espresso machines before.

I bought one but for some reason the larger 2 cup coffee filter isn't working?

Has anyone else had this in the past? Obviously I've exhausted everything on google to figure this out.

The only thing I can think of now is how coarse the coffee might be but not sure.

Backflush it out with a blind basket (if you have one) and some Cafiza cleaner. That'll remove limescale, old coffee residue etc.

I remember to do this every year or so. It does make a big difference.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

Backflush it out with a blind basket (if you have one) and some Cafiza cleaner. That'll remove limescale, old coffee residue etc.

I remember to do this every year or so. It does make a big difference.

We did this over Christmas and its a ridic difference. Murdrum has probably a more mechanical issue though?

[Mellor]

In other news. I seen that in December, the last cipher letter from the Zodiac killer was decoded. It had stumped the world cryptologists for 51 years. Took a lot of brute force through thousands of permutations.
gave no clues to his indentured however.

Also in serial killers news. Samuel Little died in prison last week. Responsible for a possible 93 murders (50 confirmed). Which makes him America’s most prolific serial killer ever - more kills that Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, and Jeffery Dahmer combined. Expect he’ll be subject of a Netflix documentary soon.

[Kayroo]

1. I've been talking specifically about this instance.
2. The death of this man was avoidable
3. The coppers job is also to protect ALL life .

1. It's not possible to have standard rules of engagement that are case-specific. Otherwise there'd be no objective standard against which to judge the ESU's behaviour.

2. You have absolutely no way of knowing that. They tazed him twice, pepper sprayed him and pleaded with him repeatedly to drop the knife and did not shoot until he lunged for a Garda. If that's all true (and we don't know that yet) then they took all reasonable steps to subdue the man and only fired when the life of a Garda was in direct jeopardy. That is entirely justifiable, if tragic.

3. You said we were missing the word "ALL" in a previous post. Well point 3 here is missing the words "within reason". If someone is running towards a primary school with a machine gun having threatened to kill everyone inside and then refuses to drop the weapon when commanded to do so, is it right to let him run into the building or to shoot? Once you accept that there are grey areas here (and there are) then you need to have rules for how to navigate the use of force. Which brings us back to point 1 above.

Shooting at his body mass to take down a civilian with a crude knife was not protecting all life adequately . This is my view on it and the remit for armed police should be to avoid administering a death penalty unless there is definite mortal danger . There is a part of me the feels if it were me with the knife I would be alive today .

Two things here. First, you appear to be accepting that if the shooter believed his colleague was in mortal danger that he was right to shoot. That's literally what the rules of engagement require of him. You are accepting a point that has been made regularly here but which you previously seemed to reject.

Second, your last sentence brings a racial element in to this for which (as of yet) there is no basis. It's an Americanisation of an Irish issue. We know American cops disproportionately shoot black people in shocking situations where there's no actual threat. A black person is shot here by AGS, therefore the same must apply? No. That's nonsense. It may well transpire that the shooter was, in part or in whole, motivated by racial animus. Or it may transpire that it was a real and genuine fear for the life of his fellow officer. It may transpire that, while the belief of the shooter was genuine, an objective assessment shows he was overly hasty or careless. There's any number of potential outcomes. But wild speculation about the motivations of the parties involved doesn't advance things one inch.

We seem to agree that there are situations where it is justifiable to use potentially lethal force. Whether or not this was one of those situations is something nobody here can say. That's for GSOC and any other inquiries established to discover.

[Guest]

We did this over Christmas and its a ridic difference. Murdrum has probably a more mechanical issue though?

Thanks RD3 I’ll order one of them either way.

It arrived this week so not a limescale issue but not sure what’s up.
It works completely fine with single shot filter but double shot filter something isn’t working.

Perhaps it’s not mechanical either because the issue arises no matter if I press the single or double shot button so it’s a filter issue.

Ill try grind the coffee finer and order a second filter along with what RD3 said. The effort of shipping it back to Amazon makes me want to get it working.

Zodiac is the only unsolved murder type case I find interesting because for some largely unknown reason I happen to love the movie

[Solksjaer!]

So IPB are we racist in Ireland ? The cesspit of online comments I've read this week is really depressing reading.
it is somewhat of an eye opening even at my age.


For Kayroo . If someone is shot dead , its avoidable . A choice was made . I don't need to be there . Even the high level bare facts say to me , he doesnt deserve the fatal bullet.
anyway its irrelevant what I think but I am unmoved in my view .
Mental health is becoming a bigger problem in Ireland. It needs to be treated separately to terrorist attacks. Back to my seafood chowder . Good ol Aldi.

[Solksjaer!]

Coffee wankers