Originally posted by Raoul Duke III
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Originally posted by Keane View PostIf you're trying to convince me that everyone should pay tax on income I'm 100% on board with that. I have this (unresearched) notion that it has to be good for respect for public services and general social cohesion if we all contribute something however small."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View PostMy point is that we have overly distorted the curve. This obsession with 'taking people out of the tax net' is actually dangerous.
Also with the point above that USC is the best tax we have.
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Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View PostNo bother imo. I can't see why a hotel in rural France would be able to get by on €15 an hour, but an Irish one is only viable at €10 an hour. We shouldn't compromise on paying people a decent living wage.
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You are right that FG shouldn't have included 'removing USC' as part of an earlier manifesto - firstly a stupid thing to do from a fiscal standpoint and secondly a monumentally stupid thing to fail to deliver on from a political standpoint.
For me, FG's main faults are when they succumb to populism, I don't think their core support thanks them for it and they don't win enough floating support to make the eventual consequences worthwhile. Leo saying that they were the party to represent those 'who get up early in the morning' and then immediately crumbling to the attacks of critics outraged by this apparent attack on 'the vunerable' just gave everyone a rod to beat FG with. Just stick with your principles FFS.
Seems the likelihood of a FF/FG and one other government is increasing. I'm not sure it will be much of a success if that's the case! I can't see how any government with FF as the biggest party will be a success.
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Originally posted by ionapaul View PostYou are right that FG shouldn't have included 'removing USC' as part of an earlier manifesto - firstly a stupid thing to do from a fiscal standpoint and secondly a monumentally stupid thing to fail to deliver on from a political standpoint.
For me, FG's main faults are when they succumb to populism, I don't think their core support thanks them for it and they don't win enough floating support to make the eventual consequences worthwhile. Leo saying that they were the party to represent those 'who get up early in the morning' and then immediately crumbling to the attacks of critics outraged by this apparent attack on 'the vunerable' just gave everyone a rod to beat FG with. Just stick with your principles FFS.
Seems the likelihood of a FF/FG and one other government is increasing. I'm not sure it will be much of a success if that's the case! I can't see how any government with FF as the biggest party will be a success.
EDIT: Just to note that Leo spent the first debate with Micheal Martin promising to remove the USC once again this time around, whether or not it was slated in their manifesto to do it in full in the lifetime of this gov. It's not an old promise consigned to the dustbin of history.Last edited by Keane; 13-02-20, 11:59.
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Originally posted by hotspur View PostSocial Democrat Gary Gannon got elected to the Dail for the first time. Here he is fighting in the council against selling off the Magdalene laundry site on Sean McDermott Street for a hotel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRY2pCiXWPU
Maybe if we had higher local taxes, and gave councillors more power they'd be more amenable to supporting local development.
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I think FG would be a better mudguard on both SF and FF than those two would be on each other (I think a FF/SF government will be dreadful!) but can't see them sticking with either arrangement for too long, would be politically too unpalatable I think.
I think enough people voted for 'change', whatever that means, that the focus should be giving SF a chance at their turn at the wheel, for good or ill. I think a FF/FG government will enrage a big % of the voters in this country and lead to further polarisation, I can't see it being worth it. I'd rather a failed FF/SF experiment (depending on how big a failure it is I suppose) than our political discourse sinking to the level of the US or the UK, we're already well on our way there!
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Originally posted by ionapaul View PostI think FG would be a better mudguard on both SF and FF than those two would be on each other (I think a FF/SF government will be dreadful!) but can't see them sticking with either arrangement for too long, would be politically too unpalatable I think.
I think enough people voted for 'change', whatever that means, that the focus should be giving SF a chance at their turn at the wheel, for good or ill. I think a FF/FG government will enrage a big % of the voters in this country and lead to further polarisation, I can't see it being worth it. I'd rather a failed FF/SF experiment (depending on how big a failure it is I suppose) than our political discourse sinking to the level of the US or the UK, we're already well on our way there!- They need to be in government. In fairness, they seem very much to want this too.
- People need to see what they are like in government.
"We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Always gonna happen, she did alright from the back page of the Sindo tbf...
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Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Postbefore I supply them (), it would be interesting to see what you think they would be
I'd guess that the % of revenue from <€20k is negligible, 1% maybe?
I also assume that the highest income bracket contributes between 25-33%.
So I'll guess...
20k 1%
40k 14%
60k 17%
80k 19%
100k 22%
150+K 27%
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Originally posted by hotspur View PostThat the lower earners contribute very little as there is very little to tax and the rates are low. I note that the table jumps from €20K-40K where a lot of people would be earning between that.
I'd guess that the % of revenue from <€20k is negligible, 1% maybe?
I also assume that the highest income bracket contributes between 25-33%.
So I'll guess...
20k 1%
40k 14%
60k 17%
80k 19%
100k 22%
150+K 27%"We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by Strewelpeter View Postwhat is the rationale for that?
Apply one large economic shock.
Observe results.
Sound familiar?"We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by hotspur View PostWhat percentage do you imagine the top 5% of earners would pay in a totally flat system?
You can see from the German numbers i posted that you get more reward\less pain from the tax system there for being a high earner. Which is quite extraordinary really when you consider how we are constantly being told we are closer to Boston than Berlin..."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View PostMaybe 20-25%? Would need to see the distributions.
You can see from the German numbers i posted that you get more reward\less pain from the tax system there for being a high earner. Which is quite extraordinary really when you consider how we are constantly being told we are closer to Boston than Berlin...
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At least everything is going smoothly in London https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/13/w...s-johnson.html https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...ings-96bwkf962Gone full 'Glinner' since June 2022.
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Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View PostAnother thing to chew on as we debate the weighty issues of the day:
The issue with consumption tax is that it is squarely regressive. That’s where the debate starts I’d say, and it continues up the chain."Worldly wisdom teaches that it is better for reputation to fail conventionally than to succeed unconventionally." - John Maynard Keynes
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Originally posted by LuckyLloyd View PostLeft wing parties here (including SF) being against property taxes will always be maddening to me. It’s such a bad look and completely indefensible and counter productive. Obviously it’s borne of our specific national psychosis with regards to property. But yes, increased property taxes, increased vacant site / land hoarding levies are urgently needed. It should also not be a flat fee, but graded and progressive based on size / time factors.
The issue with consumption tax is that it is squarely regressive. That’s where the debate starts I’d say, and it continues up the chain.You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011
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I couldn't agree more and as much as I might disagree with some LL politics as of late, he knows his bball better than 99% of fans which is the true test of a man.
Back to the politics though, I assume this FF announcement effectively means a 2nd GE given FG signaled an interest in taking up a role in opposition. FF minoirty with FG C& S either?
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Originally posted by zuutroy View PostFind basketball very hard to watch nowadays when they're hauling up 60 3-pointers a game.
There are a few teams that play a little slower and their distribution isn't as polarised between dunks/lay-ups and 3pt shots.
Quin Snyder does a good job with the Utah Jazz for example and tbf the game slows down in the playoffs so you see a slightly older style.
The days of throwing it down low to bigger players is largely dead though, if you can't shoot from range, you'll have a much harder time plying your trade in today's game.
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Imagine the pearl clutching orgy if this stuff happened in a GAA or soccer schools match.
The ex pupils going back year after year is just sad- fkn losers
‘Your father works for my father’: Schools rugby turning toxic in the stands
via The Irish Times
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Originally posted by Murdrum View PostBack to the politics though, I assume this FF announcement effectively means a 2nd GE given FG signaled an interest in taking up a role in opposition. FF minoirty with FG C& S either?
37 FF, that's less than a quarter of 160. How do you cobble together C&S from there?"We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by PSV58 View PostImagine the pearl clutching orgy if this stuff happened in a GAA or soccer schools match.
The ex pupils going back year after year is just sad- fkn losers
‘Your father works for my father’: Schools rugby turning toxic in the stands
via The Irish Times
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rug...ands-1.4172843You are technically correct...the best kind of correct
World Record Holder for Long Distance Soul Reads: May 7th 2011
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Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View Postthey still don't have the numbers?
37 FF, that's less than a quarter of 160. How do you cobble together C&S from there?
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Originally posted by Murdrum View PostI thought something around FF/Green with FG effectively doing C&S, obviously messy but I just can't see FG/FF being willing to officially go into government. I think if SF do it across multiple elections its inevitable but just not yet.
35 abstaining
Opposition is still 75!"We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by Theresa View PostIn true old white man fashion, I have just finished a script that runs for me every Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday and books my tee times for me at my golf course as soon as the tee sheet opens.
Summer sorted.Happiness is not a goal; it is a by-product. ~Eleanor Roosevelt
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Originally posted by Theresa View PostJust the man I was hoping would respond. I guess I mean anyway possible become the de facto gateway to Europe for all trade or business. Even start with tourism. Ireland not being part of Schengen means Chinese tourists have an extra hurdle to jump to visit.
Is it the obvious geographic reasons why you know it’ll never happen from a physical goods perspective?
All container ships coming out of Asia will travel up through the Suez canal, across the Med, swing a right at Portugal and up into Northern Europe. The main north Europe base ports of call are Le Havre, Rotterdam, Antwerp, Hamburg, Bremerhaven, Felixstowe and Southampton.
When vessels get to the north west of France, there isn't a huge distance between Cork/Dublin and Rotterdam/Antwerp but Cork & Dublin are known as outports. The large ocean vessels (15,000 - 23,000 TEU size) don't call into outports as the volume coming off them at these places just doesn't warrant it (we also couldn't deal with the size of them, either on the draught or the length - Dublin would proably need to dredge about 5+ metres and add a minimum of 100m turning room. Ringaskiddy may be able to handle some of the non mega sized ones as their draft is deeper)
Instead, the containers bound for Ireland discharge at one of the above mentioned base ports and are then transferred onto much smaller vessels (1,000 - 2,000TEU vessel) for sending to places like Ireland, Scotland, the Baltics and the Scandi's.
Add in that Rotterdam/Antwerp/Hambug in particular all have excellent barge and rail networks to get containers cheaply all across Benelux, Germany, Poland, Austria, etc and we will never be a hub location
Air freight is simialr, in that the vast majority of freight travels on passenger planes. While we have some direct flights to/from China, the main EU hubs (London, Amster, Frankfurt, Paris) will have considerablly more capacity due to more people flying each way. A lot of Irish freight would come off the planes in one of these hubs and is then trucked into ireland.
Sorry, bit of a rushed answer but have to leg it.
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Originally posted by PSV58 View PostImagine the pearl clutching orgy if this stuff happened in a GAA or soccer schools match.
The ex pupils going back year after year is just sad- fkn losers
‘Your father works for my father’: Schools rugby turning toxic in the stands
via The Irish Times
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rug...ands-1.4172843Turning millions into thousands
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I've a friend working in shipping in Shanghai the last 10 odd years. Sounds like there's a good chance you'd know him.
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Originally posted by Strewelpeter View PostClearly you have never been to any club GAA match."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View PostTwo states in my friend. NH is next door to Vermont.
Did you pick Germany as the trailblazing example because it most heavily supports your point of view or because they have 'their shit together'? Surely an average or comparing to a number of countries would have been better. FWIW, a recent study suggests the Irish tax system does most in Europe to reduce inequality which in my book seems a good thing.
Opr
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Originally posted by Opr View PostAgreed but no longer a moot point.
Did you pick Germany as the trailblazing example because it most heavily supports your point of view or because they have 'their shit together'? Surely an average or comparing to a number of countries would have been better. FWIW, a recent study suggests the Irish tax system does most in Europe to reduce inequality which in my book seems a good thing.
Opr"We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View PostFeel free to produce some numbers yourself! Germany is generally reckoned to be prudently managed.
Opr
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Originally posted by Opr View PostI don't think we have have been un-prudently(Don't know if I can do that) managed over the last government so I don't really want to go digging into numbers. They also generally underlie a whole host of other factors that aren't taken into consideration making the comparison not really worthwhile unless you are picking specific examples of numbers you like to make a point.
Opr
I post numbers. Actual facts. You take issue with numbers.
Originally posted by Opr View PostDid you pick Germany as the trailblazing example because it most heavily supports your point of view or because they have 'their shit together'? Surely an average or comparing to a number of countries would have been better.
Originally posted by Opr View PostI don't think we have have been un-prudently(Don't know if I can do that) managed over the last government so I don't really want to go digging into numbers."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Actual Numbers = Facts. Mmmmm OK. You took a sample of one other country that is heavily weighted towards your point of view. Do you not see how that is troublesome? You think me also playing silly beggars and putting up silly numbers to support the counter side is, what? Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Opr
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Originally posted by Opr View PostActual Numbers = Facts. Mmmmm OK. You took a sample of one other country that is heavily weighted towards your point of view. Do you not see how that is troublesome? You think me also playing silly beggars and putting up silly numbers to support the counter side is, what? Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Opr
All I see here is you nitpicking but refusing to make any actual contribution yourself. Find the numbers for Sweden, France, Netherlands, wherever. The fact that you dismiss such things as 'silly numbers' indicates an entrenched mindset. Persuade us. Enlighten us."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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