Bad Beat/Moaning/Venting - pray for Lazare

[LuckyLloyd]

The broader lesson is surely the opposite. Syria wouldn't have happened if Iraq didn't happen, and your solution is to invade Syria and seemingly to support Assad who uses chemical weapons on his own people. Let's stop invading other countries. Let's stop getting involved in other countries altogether. France is currently bombing ISIS in Syria - I'd say that's a vastly bigger reason for some Syrians deciding to bomb them back than any innate craziness. The same way as no Syrians blew up Russian planes until they started bombing Syria. How is it even slightly unexpected that if you start systematically killing people they'll want to kill you back.

Or let's stop being ala carte in our foreign policy choices. Iraq shouldn't have happened and the half hearted involvement in Libya shouldn't have happened. But it did. And you can't just pull out now. ISIL is not acceptable. It can't be allowed to stand. If that means backing Assad and then removing him once you're so embedded that you essentially control the country so be it. Just because Iraq was bullshit doesn't mean that we don't have all the justification we'll ever need to go into Syria right now.

Freedom does need to be aggressively protected from time to time. You can be liberal and for self determination and still believe that in a situation like this.

[LuckyLloyd]

Tolerance? fuck tolerance, something is either accepted/acceptable or told fuck off!

Tolerance is looking down on someone and patting them on the head saying well done with your brown skin, sexual orentation and/or weird Godhead

I don't think you have any quarrel with me on this one tbh.

[Guest]

I don't think you have any quarrel with me on this one tbh.

Didn't think I would have tbh

[Lord Sir Banter]

Jesus,some cunt dragged a piano down to the Bataclan and played Imagine this morning. There are no words

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynsq5ms9lvI

Reigning music wanker of the year. It'll be hard to top and only 7 weeks till 2016...

[Kayroo]

Sorry Keith, but at the end of the day the video shows the man behind him in the 30 seconds leading up to it. That man isn't pushing the Gard or threatening him in anyway. He is then lamped aggressively in the head (or at least that's the intention). The Gards safety or that of others was not in jeopardy. So fuck him and I stand by my opinion that it's an awful shame he wasn't immediately lamped in the head. Aggressive bullying deserves to be met by an equal reaction in all walks of life.

Oh he tried to grab his notebook!! Well that obviously justifies a full body swing of a baton towards the side of his head doesn't it!!

Fucking nonsense.

It is clearly a highly tense situation. The Garda is surrounded by an increasingly agitated group of people in an enclosed space. They attempt to effect a lawful arrest and are met by a barrage of shouts and, at some points, jostling of the members during the arrest. In fact both times they try and remove the man they are arresting a number of people try and get between the Garda and the suspect and physically separate them. Having been remarkably patient with them it appears that a woman to the right of the Garda falls backwards, causing a moment of confusion and a sharp rise in tensions again. One member, with his back to the person who gets hit, is absolutely calm and is moving away from the gentleman who is eventually struck with the baton. At that moment the footage becomes quite jolted but it is clear that at least two, if not more, men are crouched for some reason immediately behind the Garda. The Garda's demeanour then changes completely and he takes out his baton and strikes the man immediately behind him.

It is patently obvious that something caused the Garda to react in that fashion. I accept that we don't see what it is. His notebook is in his top left hand pocket (we can see him put it there a few seconds beforehand) so that's certainly not what happened. There's little point in speculating what that may be as only the Garda knows for sure (and, perhaps, the person who caused the reaction if some form of immediate provocation took place) but to suggest that the Garda was acting in a bully boy fashion given the restraint of all the members in the moments leading up to that is actually laughable.

The Garda reacted to something. Quite possibly he overreacted in the circumstances (unless someone was going for his pepper spray or cuffs or struck the Garda - the last of these seems most likely - then it probably was an overreaction). But to suggest that a member of An Garda Siochana should have the shit kicked out of him in those circumstances is ridiculous and, frankly, childish.

[LuckyLloyd]

EVERYTHING and I mean EVERYTHING in the lead up to the hit was bullying of the police by fuckwits spouting freeman shite, so they got what they deserved according to you

They're talking. Maybe they're talking nonsense but nonetheless they're talking. And yes, there is some mild resistance to an attempt to arrest a man there. None of that is threatening a Gard.

Don't law a hand on the plod unless they start on you!

So you agree that after the Gard takes a wild swing at the head of an unarmed middle aged man it would be okay to strike him in return?

Lloyd if it was shown that the protester who we can clearly see had been shoving and abusing the Guard for minutes was, in the seconds before he was hit, trying to interfere with his belt or something from it would you then agree that the Guards action was appropriate?

No. It wouldn't necessitate that level of force. The reaction is WAY out of line with the level of provocation the Gard received. It's simply not okay to be lamping people full force in the head with batons unless they are seriously out of control and need to be knocked out / immobilised immediately.

I have no doubt that the Garda's training would be in line with what I'm saying and instruct that what he actually did here was a gross overreaction.

[ComradeCollie]

I think it's fairly obvious from the video that this Garda isn't in his right mind though. If this how Garda are trained to deal with this situation it paints a depressing picture to the training they receive.

He clearly lost the plot. Think it's more akin to a road rage incident, and not something that any amount of training could prevent.

[tylerdurden94]

Wtf never heard of a no fry zone?
People are up in arms about a mcdonalds being built within 300 yards of three schools
n Greystones.
Its not an explosives factory.
One of the protestors had a neck like a bull she could do with more walk less talk.

There was talk of opening a KFC at the Bank of Ireland near the Halfway House but it didn't go ahead because of stuff like that no fry zone, in that vicinity there is 1 chipper/2 chinese/Supermacs & Papa Johns/Eddie Rockets/Subway & three supermarkets/two cafes & hot deli counter in a shop, yeah not building a KFC is going to cut down on people's ability to not eat unhealthy.

[Kayroo]

Wish Horatio a speedy recovery and fair play to you for posting about things in such an upbeat and positive tone. Bad heart related news is the worst. You'll get there, one day at a time, etc.

Just while we are in the middle of this other discussion I want to add my +1 to this. For anyone who has never met Horatio he is a gentleman of the highest order and I know you'll come through this mate, just like Lloyd says: one day at a time.

[LuckyLloyd]

It is clearly a highly tense situation. The Garda is surrounded by an increasingly agitated group of people in an enclosed space. They attempt to effect a lawful arrest and are met by a barrage of shouts and, at some points, jostling of the members during the arrest. In fact both times they try and remove the man they are arresting a number of people try and get between the Garda and the suspect and physically separate them. Having been remarkably patient with them it appears that a woman to the right of the Garda falls backwards, causing a moment of confusion and a sharp rise in tensions again. One member, with his back to the person who gets hit, is absolutely calm and is moving away from the gentleman who is eventually struck with the baton. At that moment the footage becomes quite jolted but it is clear that at least two, if not more, men are crouched for some reason immediately behind the Garda. The Garda's demeanour then changes completely and he takes out his baton and strikes the man immediately behind him.

It is patently obvious that something caused the Garda to react in that fashion. I accept that we don't see what it is. His notebook is in his top left hand pocket (we can see him put it there a few seconds beforehand) so that's certainly not what happened. There's little point in speculating what that may be as only the Garda knows for sure (and, perhaps, the person who caused the reaction if some form of immediate provocation took place) but to suggest that the Garda was acting in a bully boy fashion given the restraint of all the members in the moments leading up to that is actually laughable.

The Garda reacted to something. Quite possibly he overreacted in the circumstances (unless someone was going for his pepper spray or cuffs or struck the Garda - the last of these seems most likely - then it probably was an overreaction). But to suggest that a member of An Garda Siochana should have the shit kicked out of him in those circumstances is ridiculous and, frankly, childish.

Your position is that we should assume that the Gard was provoked to a reasonable level that would make him swinging at the side of a middle aged unarmed man's head an understandable course of action. I think that's laughable tbh. To justify what he did we would need to see that a Gard was seriously physically threatened and the people engaging in such behaviour needed to be immediately immobilised. That's the bottom line.

I have no idea what has caused you to have such blind faith in An Garda Siochana tbh.

[Guest]

So you agree that after the Gard takes a wild swing at the head of an unarmed middle aged man it would be okay to strike him in return?

Oooh no, they started, he responded, they don't get to escalate!


"Unless they start" is a very different set as circumstances as you are only too aware, so no little word games on the interweb today please

[Kayroo]

I have no doubt that the Garda's training would be in line with what I'm saying and instruct that what he actually did here was a gross overreaction.

Just to be absolutely clear on this. My understanding is that where someone goes for a Garda's belt they are justified in using force to prevent same. Particularly where they go for the cuffs or pepper spray. They're also instructed to strike down at the shoulder, which it appears to me he actually does.

[Tar.Aldarion]

Former French President Jacques Chirac once said war would create, "A large number of little Bin Ladens."

Hollande: "We are going to lead a war which will be pitiless. When terrorists are capable of committing such atrocities, they must be certain that they are facing a determined France, a united France, a France that is together, and does not let itself be moved"

[Raoul Duke III]

Lloyd doing a great job here.

You cannot negotiate with, or appease, maniacs. We had the supreme example of that in 1938. ISIS are this generations Nazis.

[LuckyLloyd]

Just to be absolutely clear on this. My understanding is that where someone goes for a Garda's belt they are justified in using force to prevent same. Particularly where they go for the cuffs or pepper spray. They're also instructed to strike down at the shoulder, which it appears to me he actually does.

You accept that you are taking the absolute most charitable to the Gard interpretation you can on this one right? That's your prerogative of course.

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[Guest]

Oh he tried to grab his notebook!! Well that obviously justifies a full body swing of a baton towards the side of his head doesn't it!!

Fucking nonsense.

You lay a hand on a Garda you can expect a flaking. Can't see the problem.

[Lord Sir Banter]

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/09/would-jeb-bush-kill-the-baby-adolf-hitler-given-the-chance-hell-yeah

Jeb bush would kill baby Hitler (hell yeh, you gotta step up). Carson would not abort baby Hitler.

I look forward to future presidential run questions including the How many five year olds could you take on and the fifty tiny horses/one huge duck question, likely to be far more illuminating, a bit like werewolf, we'll have to get them off the stock questions and answers to work out what they are.

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[LuckyLloyd]

This must be a top Sat for Lloyd. Come in pepperspraying a few outlandish ideas, even contradicting ideas, and get some nice bites.

Oh go fuck yourself. I am a man who holds many opinions. I was against going into Iraq because it wasn't justified in any way shape or form but am very much for the destruction of ISIL yard by yard because it is in fundamental opposition to the progress of humanity. Cogently debate it if you can but take your shutdown efforts of branding me as a troll and stick them up your hole.

[Kayroo]

Your position is that we should assume that the Gard was provoked to a reasonable level that would make him swinging at the side of a middle aged unarmed man's head an understandable course of action. I think that's laughable tbh. To justify what he did we would need to see that a Gard was seriously physically threatened and the people engaging in such behaviour needed to be immediately immobilised. That's the bottom line.

I have no idea what has caused you to have such blind faith in An Garda Siochana tbh.

I don't have a blind faith in them at all. I question everything they do. All the time. I also try and look at things dispassionately and consider all possible options.

First of all, as I said above, it appears to me that the Garda strikes for the shoulder as he is supposed to. The video isn't very clear so I could well be wrong but a Garda would be trained to strike for the shoulder as I understand it.

Secondly, I am not assuming anything. I have said that it could well have been an overreaction and I have said that there are only certain circumstances in which a Garda should use that level of force. One of which may or may not have been present in this case. I did say that something caused him to react that way and what that something turns out to be is the thing neither of us know. It could be that it was a perfectly reasonable reaction or the opposite could be true. If he overreacted I hope GSOC take all proper steps to address the issue.

However, what is absolutely not OK in any circumstances is someone advocating for the physical assault of a member of the Gardaí. They routinely do a job that I wouldn't do for 100k a year under ridiculous circumstances and for relatively average money. They do it to an incredibly high standard. It's not ok to hit a Garda. On occasion a Garda may have to use force. This may not have been one of those occasions, I don't know, but what I do know is that it is NEVER OK to advocate for physical violence against a Garda in the performance of their duties.

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[LuckyLloyd]

Remember Lloyd will also come up with 1,000 reasons to justify the IRAs similar activities as a necessary choice.

We also learned today he's in favour of a police state in Syria, but wants to be allowed to beat up Irish police who throw out a few jabs.

The weakest minds are those who feel obliged to take a certain side of every situation because they have decided they are to the left or right of the spectrum. Context is everything, and there is absolutely no point trying to find an equivalence with the role and boundaries of An Garda Siochana to the actions required to combat ISIL in Syria. Moreover, the situation where Catholics were being burnt out of their homes 1969 - 1973 offers a justification for the existence of the IRA - I'm not sure what could possibly justify the existence of a Caliphate and its stated desire to make the world a fundamentalist Islamic paradise.

Get on your bike with this nonsense.

[Teddie]

He clearly lost the plot. Think it's more akin to a road rage incident, and not something that any amount of training could prevent.

A better vetting system for the Gardai might help it then? You can't have people in the force who are capable of acting irrationally. It's not safe for the public and other Gardai themselves.

[Kayroo]

You accept that you are taking the absolute most charitable to the Gard interpretation you can on this one right? That's your prerogative of course.

And you are taking the least charitable. Assuming a thug Garda hopped up on power decided to batter a random man in that crowd because the Garda was a bully and just had enough. And, to compound that view, you wished physical harm on the Garda as a result.


I'm looking at a bad quality video and, armed with the knowledge of what they are supposed to do in this spot, see an action that accords with an expected outcome. It may well have hit the gentleman in the head. I certainly hope it didn't. You don't swing for the head because it's easy to miss and then you're exposed. You are taught to swing for the upper arm just below the shoulder because most people turn this towards you when you raise the baton and it quickly disarms/incapacitates.

You're assuming I am on the Garda's side here. I'm actually not. But what you originally advocated for is just stupid. I could criticise any number of steps the Garda took that made that situation worse prior to the striking incident. I am genuinely trying to look at this objectively.

[Guest]

Lol,how are people defending that guard. He's clearly a thick cunt and so is anyone who thinks that was justified

[LuckyLloyd]

...It could be that it was a perfectly reasonable reaction or the opposite could be true. If he overreacted I hope GSOC take all proper steps to address the issue.

However, what is absolutely not OK in any circumstances is someone advocating for the physical assault of a member of the Gardaí. They routinely do a job that I wouldn't do for 100k a year under ridiculous circumstances and for relatively average money. They do it to an incredibly high standard. It's not ok to hit a Garda. On occasion a Garda may have to use force. This may not have been one of those occasions, I don't know, but what I do know is that it is NEVER OK to advocate for physical violence against a Garda in the performance of their duties.

A Gard that wildly overreacts and starts using unjustified force becomes a criminal. I would absolutely support people defending themselves from an out of control Gard if necessary. In this case from the video we can see, if it had ended with the Gard getting the same smack in the side of the head I would have had no sympathy for him.

I don't believe we're going to agree on this one ultimately.

[Kayroo]

A better vetting system for the Gardai might help it then? You can't have people in the force who are capable of acting irrationally. It's not safe for the public and other Gardai themselves.

LOL! Soon as we develop this guy we can eliminate people capable of irrationality from our police force. Until then we are stuck with ordinary people who are doing their best under bad circumstances.

[Raoul Duke III]

It would be interesting to learn what Hitch thinks the solution to ISIS should be. It seems to be "don't bomb them and they will make nice with us".

For the record, I want to see them all dead. If that means doing business with Assad so be it - he is a lesser evil. The US, Brits et al have clearly come around to this view.

[KevIRL]

@YanniKouts
#Greece PublicOrderMin Toskas confirms Paris attacker w Syrian passport was registered as refugee on Leros island in Oct. /via @AntennaNews

Crikey.

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[LuckyLloyd]

@YanniKouts
#Greece PublicOrderMin Toskas confirms Paris attacker w Syrian passport was registered as refugee on Leros island in Oct. /via @AntennaNews

Crikey.

Whelp...I think Hollande's government will be making good on the firmness of his statement from last night

[Guest]

Fair play to that guard.
When surrounded by a mob pushing and shoving screaming peaceful protest dead right cLatter one of them.
Its like a vet going into a pen ful of cattle have to show them shows boss.
The police in this country are pussy cats compared to most countries.
Every second one of these protestors cream themselves full time with the cameras out trying to provoke and geta reaction.

[Raoul Duke III]

@YanniKouts
#Greece PublicOrderMin Toskas confirms Paris attacker w Syrian passport was registered as refugee on Leros island in Oct. /via @AntennaNews

Crikey.

Hardly surprising?

[LuckyLloyd]

Oh yes I'm sure the Syrians who formed ISIS have suffered nothing worse than having their homes burned down like the northern Catholics. I'd imagine when their brethren were disintegrating in chemical attacks they were thinking 'well at least they're not calling us Taigs'. The circumstances that led to the creation of ISIS were far more worthy than those that led to the IRA deciding to blow up big cities and little kids across England.

Hold on, is your view of the Syrian situation Assad vs ISIL?

[ComradeCollie]

Lol,how are people defending that guard. He's clearly a thick cunt and so is anyone who thinks that was justified

Ah heeor. You could call Kayroo many things, a thick cunt is not one of them.

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[Guest]

Ah heeor. You could call Kayroo many things, a thick cunt is not one of them.

Was talking in a general sense,tha wasn't directed at Kayroo (or Hitch)

[Guest]

Hardly surprising?

Refugees welcome

[Guest]

@YanniKouts
#Greece PublicOrderMin Toskas confirms Paris attacker w Syrian passport was registered as refugee on Leros island in Oct. /via @AntennaNews

Crikey.

Uh oh,let's see the open border loons try to spin that
Though I suppose at least he registered and had his passport which is more than some

[Kayroo]

A Gard that wildly overreacts and starts using unjustified force becomes a criminal. I would absolutely support people defending themselves from an out of control Gard if necessary. In this case from the video we can see, if it had ended with the Gard getting the same smack in the side of the head I would have had no sympathy for him.

I don't believe we're going to agree on this one ultimately.

You do realise that the old meaning for the term outlaw isn't in effect these days? You actually don't lose the protection of the law if you commit a crime. That Garda wasn't "out of control", he struck the man and once the man was subdued it appears he put the baton away and went back to assisting with the arrest. Unfortunately that's where the video ends. If he kept swinging then the other Gardaí would have restrained him. That's what Gardaí are for - the prevention of crime.

You're right we won't agree on this Lloyd, I think that's obvious, but I think you should reconsider who came to this with a bias. I have tried to look at this rationally and from both sides (which, considering who is on the other side of this in the video, is a real effort for me) but you clearly have a predisposition to dislike and distrust the Gardaí. So be it. But don't accuse me of having a narrow perspective on the Gardaí in turn. We both have our own perspectives on this, I think that's clear.

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[Kayroo]

By the way Lloyd, just for balance, I think we agree in huge swathes when it comes to the ISIS issue and reality based foreign policy.

[Raoul Duke III]

A solution similar to Northern Ireland or South Africa or Rwanda based on reconciliation. Not perfect, but deciding they need a brutal dictator to control them is clearly the height of stupidity.

You're off your head. In fact your head would be off if ISIS got their hands on you. They need to be eradicated.

These lads take their orders from Allah. 'Negotiated solutions' are out of the question. I suppose they would magically start respecting other religions and allowing their women equal rights the minute the bombing stopped?

[Teddie]

LOL! Soon as we develop this guy we can eliminate people capable of irrationality from our police force. Until then we are stuck with ordinary people who are doing their best under bad circumstances.

And sometimes you have to accept someone's best isn't good enough and they should be told to find another line of work.

[LuckyLloyd]

I actually find the issue of women's rights bizarre when it comes to questions of tolerance, etc with regards to Islam. Sometimes the most extreme feminists are the ones screaming about rationality at times like these and 'not tarring a whole religion with the actions of the minority'. It's so very strange.

[Lord Sir Banter]

Can't everyone just be m8s?

[Raoul Duke III]

I actually find the issue of women's rights bizarre when it comes to questions of tolerance, etc with regards to Islam. Sometimes the most extreme feminists are the ones screaming about rationality at times like these and 'not tarring a whole religion with the actions of the minority'. It's so very strange.

Indeed. You end up with self-styled liberals defending barbaric maniacs.

There is no shades of grey here. ISIS are at war with us - Europe, Western civilisation. This isn't a fight we can run away from. This isn't an enemy we can negotiate with. They need to be destroyed militarily.

[Strewelpeter]

They're talking. Maybe they're talking nonsense but nonetheless they're talking. And yes, there is some mild resistance to an attempt to arrest a man there. None of that is threatening a Gard.

LOL

So you agree that after the Gard takes a wild swing at the head of an unarmed middle aged man it would be okay to strike him in return?

Ah I get it you have not actually seen the video or the gif.
He hits him on the shoulder as he is trained to do.

A Gard that wildly overreacts and starts using unjustified force becomes a criminal.

Again I'd recommend that you actually look at the video.

I think are misunderstanding the role of police in society. Yes we have all nice stuff about enforcing the law but ultimately their role is to enforce the states monopoly on violence.
When mob rule is threatened the police must control the situation. If two or three more cops had come in and started hitting the thug involved when he was on the ground then I would be concerned.
LOL at the outrage and the comments about the Guard behaving OTT. This was a little smack meeted outin self defence to some thuggish moron who deserved more and doesn't come close to police brutality.

[Lazare]

Why do you spell it 'Gard' Lloyd? I've seen it a lot where it looks like it's been spelt that way on purpose.

[Guest]

Indeed. You end up with self-styled liberals defending barbaric maniacs.

There is no shades of grey here. ISIS are at war with us - Europe, Western civilisation. This isn't a fight we can run away from. This isn't an enemy we can negotiate with. They need to be destroyed militarily.

That means boots on the ground though air strikes can do a lot of damage but its not as If they are attacking large conventional forces.
Have we the western world the appetite for it.

Cant always rely on the usa to lead the way.
Poland has said to today it wont take in any of the refugees it promised.
Refugees coming in now will be feared and held in over more suspicion.
The taxi service provided by navys has to end.

[Raoul Duke III]

Mildly amusing that we are talking more about a Guard hitting a protestor a thump than mass murder by lunatics.

Priorities straight as ever.

[Denny Crane]

The IRA never had suicide bombers. Many may feel it's an immaterial distinction but it's a really good thing that they never took further steps in that direction after the last hunger strikes were called off. Once you have terrorists that are willing to die as part of an attack the damage / casualties that can be inflicted scale up significantly. And an organisation with such members willing to go to such extremes can probably never be rationally bargained with.

It's obviously very important that we avoid calling out a huge swathe of the world because a tiny minority of them have decided to wage a deluded war which is essentially against freedom and progress, but at the same time I can understand why people in France would vote for the National Front after stuff like this happens. Certainly I feel hard questions need to be asked about what to do about the Syria / Libya / Iraq situations. It is increasingly clear that the arab spring was an extremely negative event and twitter didn't solve the Middle East (I'm being glib here obviously but the point remains). Russia have the right idea imo - get boots on the ground and support Assad controlling the whole of the country. You can always negotiate with a Dictator...

A friend of mine was in the Stade de France when the bombs went off. He said that people really rallied around there last night. Taxi Drivers getting people home for free, strangers welcomed off the street to stay in people's houses. I thought the statement of Hollande was admirable in its conviction. The Nazis were executed or left to consume cyanide and rightly so. These fucking pricks need to be hunted down and eradicated from the earth one by one. The broader question of multiculturalism / integration / tolerance is a longer term question. But ISIS and failed states spilling hordes of refugees into Europe is a here and now problem requiring a much more decisive and immediate solution imo.

Fairly surprised this is your reaction.

[LuckyLloyd]

Fairly surprised this is your reaction.

What did you expect my reaction to be out of interest?

[Raoul Duke III]

That means boots on the ground though air strikes can do a lot of damage but its not as If they are attacking large conventional forces.
Have we the western world the appetite for it.

Cant always rely on the usa to lead the way.
Poland has said to today it wont take in any of the refugees it promised.
Refugees coming in now will be feared and held in over more suspicion.
The taxi service provided by navys has to end.

Arm the Kurds. Re-arm Assad. Get the Iranians to put more men in (what a great way to bring Iran back into the international mainstream). Put western know-how and special forces in place

Tell the fucking Turks and Qataris that their countries will be boycotted forever if they don't stop funding ISIS. No more speaking out both sides of your mouth for Muslim countries - ISIS have to be destroyed and if you're not with us, you're against us.

[Guest]

Can't everyone just be m8s?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp0cg91rK2o

[Denny Crane]

There's nothing small minded or messed up about it at all. It's just not the default liberal opinion. I'm for tolerance of all religions; state initiated integration of multiple ethnicities and cultures; freedom of expression; etc. IS clearly are not. I'm not for one second saying that France and the west in general don't need to work on longer term integration of minorities or that we need to shut the door to refugees, etc.

However what I am saying is that we have two failed states (one of which the west destabilised) that need a solution. And the area that currently makes up the Caliphate itself needs to be met head on.

I'm tying to square your Thatcherite response here with your republican sympathies

[ComradeCollie]

Indeed. You end up with self-styled liberals defending barbaric maniacs.

There is no shades of grey here. ISIS are at war with us - Europe, Western civilisation. This isn't a fight we can run away from. This isn't an enemy we can negotiate with. They need to be destroyed militarily.

It still seems bizarre to me, that there isn't a way to stop them selling their oil. Who is buying it, and how?