Decision: Decent flop against better player

[EssEll]

Fitz EOM. I play it from time to time but I know that the field is generally strong and many players have an edge on me. UTG is a well-known player who does not know me and we never played together before last night. We were at the same table for the first few levels and I know that he thinks he has a very good read on me – and he’s probably right (but at least I am aware of this ). For example he will have observed me folding to re-raises or to donk bets on the flop where I was the pre-flop opener (prob too frequently).

Our table was broken after the first break and before the second break he is moved to my table again. I am now two seats to his left.

The hand in question is shortly before the second break (I think) and I am not sure of some of the details, but I think I can recall the pertinent elements…..

Blinds are 400/800 with a 50 ante. I have about 24k and he is about the same… maybe a bit more.

He opens for a small raise which is fairly standard for him… he has been active including when he has been in early position so I think his range is relatively wide. I call with KJs.

Flop comes QJTr. He bets 1.5k. I think for a while and raise to 4k. He considers briefly and re-pops to 10k. My thought process now is along the following lines (not exactly structured like this but these were the elements running through my mind):
• He is sure I do not have AK, QQ+ and am unlikely to have JJ, TT as I would have re-raised pre flop
• 2 pair is possible
• I am more likely to have AQ, AJ, AT. KQ / KJ are also possible

I am also pretty confident that he does NOT think that I am going to run through the situation from his point of view… in other words I think that I can out-level him here. So it makes sense to me that he will raise to 10k with a lot of hands that are behind me here (and some that are ahead – but at least I have some outs). I could call and see if he bets the turn. I could shove and might have some fold equity (not so sure about that?) Or I could fold and get picked on by someone else.

So anyway after all this analysis I chicken out and fold just because, I don’t know, I want to stay and play poker.

Any views… fold, call or shove?

[FeetMagic]

Never raising on the flop there. He'll only continue with hands that beat you. Flat call & re-assess on the turn, nearly always folding to more action.

[Bubbleking]

who was the villain? Thats pretty important as there are different types of "good" players. E.g. against someone like doke im probably folding this preflop while against someone like blaaaaaah (always forget how many a's) its a 3bet. Dont really like calling tbh.

Im not raising the flop either as calling keeps both of your ranges pretty wide. Im willing to let it go now as the flop smacks the range of a person who calls a raise and yet the villain knows this and still comes over the top of you

[Hectorjelly]

why raise the flop?

[Winning!]

Depending on positions shoving pre is a decent option vs a LAG who you believe to have a significant edge postflop. I don't mind the call IP though when our hand plays well postflop.

Just call the first time OTF, I have no idea what you're logic behind raising was. We never have AK/K9/sets here so trying to rep them vs a guy whos range contains all of them is pretty bad. Yeah he could have made this deduction and be 3ball/f here some but your range contains some 2P combos and having seen you play passively postflop I really doubt he'll be light here. Shoving is super-high variance, fold is best

[Closed_Account]

All the stuff about him being a better player etc doesnt really impact this hand in any way (post flop).

Just call on the flop. It is a really straight forward call. What do we achieve by raising?

[EssEll]

who was the villain? Thats pretty important as there are different types of "good" players. E.g. against someone like doke im probably folding this preflop while against someone like blaaaaaah (always forget how many a's) its a 3bet. Dont really like calling tbh.

Im not raising the flop either as calling keeps both of your ranges pretty wide. Im willing to let it go now as the flop smacks the range of a person who calls a raise and yet the villain knows this and still comes over the top of you

Villain was Daragh Davey... which category does he fall into?

[EssEll]

All the stuff about him being a better player etc doesnt really impact this hand in any way (post flop).

Just call on the flop. It is a really straight forward call. What do we achieve by raising?

This point made several times, i.e. don't raise flop... the fact that most replies say this makes me think it is probably good advice

My reasoning at the time (as best as i can recall) was that I expected him to CB and I had a very good draw so there was some merit in a semi-bluff raise.

Certainly as the hand played out a call was a better option.

How do I play it if I call, the turn is blank and he checks?

[KK82]

Check

[JamieCarra]

Villain was Daragh Davey... which category does he fall into?

Fold at every stage vs the mongoose

[Hectorjelly]

All the stuff about him being a better player etc doesnt really impact this hand in any way (post flop).

Fold pre is probably better against someone who is genuinely better

[EssEll]

Fold pre is probably better against someone who is genuinely better

Range for calling / raising?

[Mellor]

Villain is UTG, and you are in UTG+2. Is that right.
If so, I call or raise quite a small range

[Hectorjelly]

Range for calling / raising?

What exact positions are you? If you are in ep then I'd be very very tight, not only is your call going to be marginal, but you may be in a terrible position after the flop (if ppl call behind you), and if anyone 3bets you have to fold your hand. You have roughly 30blinds, its not really a time to be calling raises (bar slowplaying), unless the player is bad.

[peterswellman]

Are we really that inferior post flop in position that we have to fold KJs 30bb deep? He'll play better than most OOP but we've got a decent hand that flops very well and should be easy to play.

Call flop c-bet. No need to raise whatsoever.

[FeetMagic]

Are we really that inferior post flop in position that we have to fold KJs 30bb deep? He'll play better than most OOP but we've got a decent hand that flops very well and should be easy to play.

Call flop c-bet. No need to raise whatsoever.

I'd definitely fold pre actually if the raise came from EP & there's a few to act behind.

He opens for a small raise which is fairly standard for him… he has been active including when he has been in early position so I think his range is relatively wide. I call with KJs

[Closed_Account]

Fold pre is probably better against someone who is genuinely better

I said post flop, ie our decision on the flop. Of course there are times to deviate from a standard line against players you find difficult to play against, or who are going to make our life just too unpleasant on later streets.

[ianmc38]

Are we really that inferior post flop in position that we have to fold KJs 30bb deep? He'll play better than most OOP but we've got a decent hand that flops very well and should be easy to play.

Standard reverse implied odds situation where even if we flop top pair we're going to be losing alot of the time when all the loot goes in.

[The Aul Switcharoo]

I came to the table while this was been played out. Pre is definitely tight with so many behind you and the likeliness of a 3bet where you have to fold. NicoSanty was the BB with a beautiful reshovable ~15bb which could be a factor

After calling pre I'm definitely only calling flop. You have a awkward stack size and even yourself you have claimed to have shown no strength in the hand. Fold now

Oh and you got it back with commission about 10 minutes later when you binked the 10 on the river against me And AQo was the very bottom of my range from UTG going into some of the late position stacks

[Zod]

Villain was Daragh Davey... which category does he fall into?

reshove and throw your wallet on the table too.

[Laois Hammer]

Pre is definitely tight with so many behind you and the likeliness of a 3bet where you have to fold.

If a 3b is likely shouldnt we be happy to set up a flat/jam?

[peterswellman]

If we get shoved on, we get shoved on. No point worrying about it until it happens. It's sucks but we fold and we continue to play our 28bb stack.

Standard reverse implied odds situation where even if we flop top pair we're going to be losing alot of the time when all the loot goes in.

I don't see why the loot always has to go in when we flop top pair. We'll just evaluate each street at it happens and try and make the beat decision.

[Daragh999]

V annoyed i hadn't seen this till now, got a few good lols out of it. I was pretty active overall but UTG with a few sub 15bb stacks (particularly NicoSanty in the BB who can reshove v wide) and a quite laggy table my range is pretty strong here so its prob a fold pre. Flop is a super clear call, were still fairly deep and by raising your turning your middle pair and decent draw into a bluff that you can't proceed with if i 3bet you.

From my point of view though your raise did represent alot of strength because this is a board that should smash my range and you have just raised me on it so if i had a hand like AQ or AA it puts me in a pretty tough spot. Long story short i didn't think you were raise folding on this coordinated a board, your raise appeared to me to be for value with a range of, a set, 2pair, 98s and unlikely but still possible a small % hands of AA, KK, AK, K9s.

My hand was (if i havn't already given it away) :

SPOILER

Top Set QQ

[EssEll]

...but UTG with a few sub 15bb stacks (particularly NicoSanty in the BB who can reshove v wide) and a quite laggy table my range is pretty strong here so its prob a fold pre....

The other stack sizes is definitely what I missed here in my thinking

[Winning!]

The other stack sizes is definitely what I missed here in my thinking

dont forget position!

[EssEll]

dont forget position!

I was aware of position... 8 at the table and I was in UTG + 2, i.e. middle rather than early.