Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - Mammy told me not to come.

[DeadParrot]

wonder if zidane is eyeing up the french job aprés world cup
or a sneaky conte replacement

[careca]

With the nice forecast i was gonna head to Bloom for day in the sun over the weekend.

€25 in! What do you get for that? Anyone ever been?

Just entry. There is a food area with lots of free samples but that's about it. It is a full day thing though so value for money. Music there and lots to see.

[MrsFlushdraw]

I agree with the premise but I think from the other side of the argument. Rather than protecting catholic schools I would be happy to remove all religions from all schools that get state funding if it’s a cent or the whole lot.

Teaching about all religions is worthwhile I guess but i am not overly sure. it should be under an ethics class not a world religions class imo and you can teach a lot of other areas in terms of democratic structures, the always topical consent and a whole load of other good lessons on how not to be a dick.

I find all religious instruction during school hours pointless when an extra maths class would be more useful.

Here in Malta, there are all religions in the classes. Since you have to go to Church school for 45 mins one evening a week if you want catechism classes, the school teaches very little religion. They do ethics as well as there are Protestants, Catholics, Muslim, Orthodox and Jewish in the classes. You can have your child opt out of the classes.

An Orthodox friend of mine said her son gets the choice to go and see the church etc and learn about other religions, she likes this and he goes happily to see.

I enjoyed religion in high school since we learned about all of them. My teacher was great craic.

There are no religious requirements to attend school, only ask to see vaccination records.

[CHDad]

wonder if zidane is eyeing up the french job aprés world cup
or a sneaky conte replacement

Napoli unveiled Ancelotti despite having a manger under contract so that's Contes replacement

[DeadParrot]

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/law-removing-baptism-as-requirement-for-school-entry-passed-by-d%C3%A1il-1.3514882

Legislation to remove the so-called “baptism barrier” on schools admission has been passed by the Dáil.

After a late night debate the House accepted the Education (Admission to Schools) Bill which prohibits the requirement for a child to be baptised before they can be admitted to Catholic schools.

That was quick, whats the timeline for it getting through the seanad?

[Theresa]

I'd pay good money to get Obamas, or any other US presidents, thoughts on Trump.

[6starpool]

Everyone must be in the beer gardens tonight by the looks of things.

[Lao Lao]

I'm on the couch with a G&T.

Lots on cunce sipping pints outside pubs as I drove home alright though

[Lazare]

Everyone must be in the beer gardens tonight by the looks of things.

A lacuna in bbv content tonight.

I was coming on to say I learnt a new word just now, didn't realise I could immediately use it in a sentence.

[luckforsome]

...I'm in a pub in clondalkin...Occasionally checking to see If anyone has joined my prediction comp...

[CHDad]

Everyone must be in the beer gardens tonight by the looks of things.

You've convinced me to go for a pint.

Might live blog it.

[ghostface]

...I'm in a pub in clondalkin...Occasionally checking to see If anyone has joined my prediction comp...

Hope it's not the swallows

[luckforsome]

Hope it's not the swallows

...Laurels...Heard there was trouble a couple of hours ago , guy with machete...

[NewApproach]

Was in toners on baggot st. Fine joint in fairness

[Lazare]

...Laurels...Heard there was trouble a couple of hours ago , guy with machete...

Googled Swallows pub and saw an article about a bunch of lads in balaclavas storming it with hammers. Was thinking you must have dodgy sources then copped that was last month.

Fine joint in fairness.

[CHDad]

Forgot to live blog.

[NewApproach]

Googled Swallows pub and saw an article about a bunch of lads in balaclavas storming it with hammers. Was thinking you must have dodgy sources then copped that was last month.

Fine joint in fairness.

1000/1 you genuinely thought that was an IPBer

[Mellor]

Mellor that would seem fair but they aren't doing that, the Bill explicitly protects minority religion at the expense of another.

If that's true I don't think it's fair. But with your track record, I'm not sure the above is an accurate assessment.

[Kayroo]

If that's true I don't think it's fair. But with your track record, I'm not sure the above is an accurate assessment.

It's not an accurate assessment.

Minority religions are not protected at the expense of "another".

The purpose of the Bill is to remove the religious barrier that affects 90% or more of schools in Ireland. This is to improve access to local education at primary level for children generally. As the Catholic Church control the overwhelming majority of primary schools in Ireland this means that Catholic parents will easily be able to provide a Catholic ethos school for their Catholic children.

IMPORTANT: The Act only affects schools that have more children applying for them than they have places. So this disproportionately affects schools in urban areas. Urban areas also contain the overwhelming majority of minority faith schools - the vast vast majority of which are protestant schools.

So, private schools and schools that have a minority religious ethos will still be able to use religion as a ground of assessment in their admissions policy. This is to ensure that, just like Catholic parents, the parents of a protestant faith, Islam, Judaism, Hindu et al will be assured of accessing a primary school that shares their religious ethos. Every religious denomination ensured access for the children of their congregation. Or, to put it another way, equality.

What the Act achieves is ensuring that children of non-religious parents can go to their local primary school rather than seeing that place go to a student who lives 40 minutes away just because the non-religious parents of the child don't share that school's Catholic ethos.

So, just to be clear, the Act does balance the outcomes for each religion by recognising that different approaches need to be taken to different religions based upon, for example, their near total monopoly on the primary education system. Nothing is "at the expense" of any other religion. This isn't even about religion, it's about making sure children can go to school.

[jack90210]

It's not an accurate assessment.

Minority religions are not protected at the expense of "another".

The purpose of the Bill is to remove the religious barrier that affects 90% or more of schools in Ireland. This is to improve access to local education at primary level for children generally. As the Catholic Church control the overwhelming majority of primary schools in Ireland this means that Catholic parents will easily be able to provide a Catholic ethos school for their Catholic children.

IMPORTANT: The Act only affects schools that have more children applying for them than they have places. So this disproportionately affects schools in urban areas. Urban areas also contain the overwhelming majority of minority faith schools - the vast vast majority of which are protestant schools.

So, private schools and schools that have a minority religious ethos will still be able to use religion as a ground of assessment in their admissions policy. This is to ensure that, just like Catholic parents, the parents of a protestant faith, Islam, Judaism, Hindu et al will be assured of accessing a primary school that shares their religious ethos. Every religious denomination ensured access for the children of their congregation. Or, to put it another way, equality.

What the Act achieves is ensuring that children of non-religious parents can go to their local primary school rather than seeing that place go to a student who lives 40 minutes away just because the non-religious parents of the child don't share that school's Catholic ethos.

So, just to be clear, the Act does balance the outcomes for each religion by recognising that different approaches need to be taken to different religions based upon, for example, their near total monopoly on the primary education system. Nothing is "at the expense" of any other religion. This isn't even about religion, it's about making sure children can go to school.

Is this statement wrong: a Catholic child may be passed over for the school of their choice for a non Catholic child but a Jewish/Islamic/Protestant child may not be passed over for the school of their choice for a non "insert religion".

[Kayroo]

Is this statement wrong: a Catholic child may be passed over for the school of their choice for a non Catholic child but a Jewish/Islamic/Protestant child may not be passed over for the school of their choice for a non "insert religion".

Yes it is wrong. It is inaccurate and deliberately misleading. It's also completely wrong.

If a Catholic child wants to go to a particular school they can. They won't be "passed over" for a non-Catholic child. If the school they want to go to is over-subscribed then they can still apply and go there, they just won't have their religion factored into the admissions process. If they don't get the place it won't be because the other child wasn't Catholic. So the place they applied for might go to an atheist child, a catholic child or any other child. However that Catholic child, if they want to go to a Catholic school, has a myriad of choices for their education.

If a child of another faith wants to go to a school of that same faith their choices are much more limited. So, to ensure that Catholic children get to go to Catholic schools and Protestant children to Protestant schools the Oireachtas balanced those rights by allowing faith to be a factor in the admissions policy of those minority faith schools.

Balancing rights in this way is responsible governance.

EDIT: There are, of course, a number of other reasons your statement is wrong. This one is just the most substantive.

[Strewelpeter]

Its all well and good to stop forcing baptism on the children but in the long term it could wipe out our burgeoning Bouncy Castle industry.

[DeadParrot]

Its all well and good to stop forcing baptism on the children but in the long term it could wipe out our burgeoning Bouncy Castle industry.

I worry about guineys in all of this.

[Lazare]

1000/1 you genuinely thought that was an IPBer

Not sure what you mean

[Denny Crane]

Was in toners on baggot st. Fine joint in fairness

Left there after one pint, took about 3x longer to get it than to drink it.

[jack90210]

Yes it is wrong. It is inaccurate and deliberately misleading. It's also completely wrong.

If a Catholic child wants to go to a particular school they can. They won't be "passed over" for a non-Catholic child. If the school they want to go to is over-subscribed then they can still apply and go there, they just won't have their religion factored into the admissions process. If they don't get the place it won't be because the other child wasn't Catholic. So the place they applied for might go to an atheist child, a catholic child or any other child. However that Catholic child, if they want to go to a Catholic school, has a myriad of choices for their education.

If a child of another faith wants to go to a school of that same faith their choices are much more limited. So, to ensure that Catholic children get to go to Catholic schools and Protestant children to Protestant schools the Oireachtas balanced those rights by allowing faith to be a factor in the admissions policy of those minority faith schools.

Balancing rights in this way is responsible governance.

EDIT: There are, of course, a number of other reasons your statement is wrong. This one is just the most substantive.

So my statement was correct but you just don't agree with it. They are two different things.

[Keane]

I got that Trek 1.2 in Tralee last night. A friend of my dad's who does a lot of cycling had a look and said it's spotless so got a fairly good deal I think. Thanks for all the advice everyone.

[Solksjaer!]

So my statement was correct but you just don't agree with it. They are two different things.

Surely you don't think a Catholic should be ' passd over'ahead of a Jew ?

[Tar.Aldarion]

This must be the most notions spam email I've gotten:

Dear Tar

Numbers for the Critics’ Lunch are high this year, but Richard has asked me to tell you that you may bring Stella.

It would be lovely to allow members to bring partners but there just isn’t the room. So please treat this as a one off - it may not be possible next year.

Looking forward to seeing you both

Salliann

Sent from my iPhone

It has no links or anything, so odd.

[Tar.Aldarion]

It might actually be real. I think I will go and bring Stella.

[Mellor]

So my statement was correct but you just don't agree with it. They are two different things.

I'm pretty sure your statement was just flat out wrong. It's also really easy to prove it so.

If a catholic boy and a non-catholic boy both apply for a local over prescribed school. There's a chance that the catholic doesn't get in and the non-catholic does. But there's an equal chance that the reverse happens and the non-catholic doesn't get in. So in the latter case, the non-catholic boy was "passed over" for his school of choice for a catholic boy. Therefore it can happen to either child with equal likelihood.

If your suggesting that the little Jewish (or whatever) boy's school of choice would be a Jewish school. Then where's the issue? As there's no Jewish boys applying for catholic schools to take their places.

[jack90210]

I'm pretty sure your statement was just flat out wrong. It's also really easy to prove it so.

If a catholic boy and a non-catholic boy both apply for a local over prescribed school. There's a chance that the catholic doesn't get in and the non-catholic does. But there's an equal chance that the reverse happens and the non-catholic doesn't get in. So in the latter case, the non-catholic boy was "passed over" for his school of choice for a catholic boy. Therefore it can happen to either child with equal likelihood.

If your suggesting that the little Jewish (or whatever) boy's school of choice would be a Jewish school. Then where's the issue? As there's no Jewish boys applying for catholic schools to take their places.

If the Jewish school is oversubcribed Jews are let in, in preference to non Jews. These is not the same treatment as Catholic schools.

[Tar.Aldarion]

Definitely wont be soon enough for number 1 for us

It's a real shame as we have no interesting in baptising the child (wife was never baptised and Im definitely a "paper" catholic). However we know for a fact our preferred school is currently using baptism as a selection criteria... so... playing the game it is... stupid stupid wasteful game.

You're intentionally looking at this backwards. So let's clear it up.

1. 95% of schools are Catholic. So if a Catholic parent wants a Catholic child to go to a Catholic ethos school then they can do so.

2. It's not as easy to guarantee that for Jewish, Islamic, Hindi etc. so the faith criteria remains for those schools to ensure that children of those faiths can, just like the children of Catholic families, access a school with their religious ethos.

3. The rules only apply to over-subscribed schools. Mostly in cities. Schools that are not over-subscribed have to take every applicant anyway.


Schools that are over-subscribed have been using religion to refuse a child who lives down the road in favour of one who lives in the next town a few miles away. That rule is discriminatory against children of one faith over another. So, I might be forced to ask:

My parents put 5 kids through our local primary school, now my sister is grown up and still living in the area, and she is refused as her kid is not baptised, shes bottom of the lists for schools as her kid has no religion, even under all the other religions. Even harder to get into the other schools and the educate together one is inundated with requests. People coming from all over going to her local school and locals like her kid can't, even though she went there herself and has lived next to it for 35 years.

[AndyFatBastard]

Irish Poker Pince, 7pm tonight, The Brewdock down by Connolly Station. Your Dobbys, your Riggers, your AFBs, your Luckforsomes, your Lazares are all confirmed attending. Gon be leral.

[dobby]

Irish Poker Pince, 7pm tonight, The Brewdock down by Connolly Station. Your Dobbys, your Riggers, your AFBs, your Luckforsomes, your Lazares are all confirmed attending. Gon be leral.

Your jack90210s

[CHDad]

Your jack90210s

Will you all be wearing your MAGA hats?

[Lazare]

Irish Poker Pince, 7pm tonight, The Brewdock down by Connolly Station. Your Dobbys, your Riggers, your AFBs, your Luckforsomes, your Lazares are all confirmed attending. Gon be leral.

Could not have picked a better boozer. Wp.

[Lazare]

Looking forward to meeting luckforsome

[dobby]

Could not have picked a better boozer. Wp.

This is why I always get Andy to pick. Top man

[dobby]

Will you all be wearing your MAGA hats?

Yes, rigger is bringing them. Got a new one for lazare

[Denny Crane]

Will you all be wearing your MAGA hats?

Might pop in for one

[bp_me]

My parents put 5 kids through our local primary school, now my sister is grown up and still living in the area, and she is refused as her kid is not baptised, shes bottom of the lists for schools as her kid has no religion, even under all the other religions. Even harder to get into the other schools and the educate together one is inundated with requests. People coming from all over going to her local school and locals like her kid can't, even though she went there herself and has lived next to it for 35 years.

I know anecdotally of an issue in the school we prefer where the parents of an unbaptised child had to resort to getting TD/DoE involved to get their child in the door.

Though I just had a quick look through the website... and at the very least the PE uniform is hideous!!! Can't find their admissions policy though!

[Mellor]

If the Jewish school is oversubcribed Jews are let in, in preference to non Jews. These is not the same treatment as Catholic schools.

I was giving an example of how a non-catholic could be passed over in his school of choice. Remember, you claimed it was impossible for it to happen.

-'As for for Jewish school above. Isn't that exactly what the Act prevents? Text below, no mention of catholic, just religion.

An Act to amend the Equal Status Act 2000 to amend section 7(3) of that Act so that school admission policies in publicly funded schools may not discriminate against children on the basis of religious beliefs.

What am I missing? On what basis can this oversubscribed Jewish school discriminate based on religion?

[Denny Crane]

[Denny Crane]

A girl I know is a trained massage therapist and she was asking me about how to get involved at poker events. I'm guessing the ones that do the likes of the Irish Open are a travelling company, but is there scope for getting involved in smaller events?

[dobby]

A girl I know is a trained massage therapist and she was asking me about how to get involved at poker events. I'm guessing the ones that do the likes of the Irish Open are a travelling company, but is there scope for getting involved in smaller events?

There was one girl working the Saturday in green isle. Seemed busy enough

[Kayroo]

So my statement was correct but you just don't agree with it. They are two different things.

No you're statement is entirely incorrect. You're trying to frame Catholics as somehow being persecuted here and the facts simply don't support that.

If the Jewish school is oversubcribed Jews are let in, in preference to non Jews. These is not the same treatment as Catholic schools.

Jewish school in Dublin. Superb. Let's use that example.

There are 2 Jewish schools in Dublin that I can find, one orthodox and one progressive. So if an Orthodox Jew wants to go to an Orthodox school in Dublin he has one choice. ONE. If he can't get in then he is forced by circumstance to be educated elsewhere.

A Catholic child who can't get in to a specific Catholic school that they would not be able to get into unless religion was a factor in admissions can still choose from the hundreds of alternative schools, all of which have a Catholic ethos, available to him.

You are looking at it from the point of view of the school, whereas it is properly examined from the point of view of the child. Any child whose parents want them in a Catholic school will be able to do so. They might not get the specific Catholic school they want because they don't meet the other admission criteria but they will still go to a Catholic school. As will Jews, Muslims, Protestants and everyone else.

It's equality of opportunity Jack. Everyone has the opportunity to go to a school that meets their faith requirements without unduly disadvantaging those without a religious denomination.

[jack90210]

No you're statement is entirely incorrect. You're trying to frame Catholics as somehow being persecuted here and the facts simply don't support that.



Jewish school in Dublin. Superb. Let's use that example.

There are 2 Jewish schools in Dublin that I can find, one orthodox and one progressive. So if an Orthodox Jew wants to go to an Orthodox school in Dublin he has one choice. ONE. If he can't get in then he is forced by circumstance to be educated elsewhere.

A Catholic child who can't get in to a specific Catholic school that they would not be able to get into unless religion was a factor in admissions can still choose from the hundreds of alternative schools, all of which have a Catholic ethos, available to him.

You are looking at it from the point of view of the school, whereas it is properly examined from the point of view of the child. Any child whose parents want them in a Catholic school will be able to do so. They might not get the specific Catholic school they want because they don't meet the other admission criteria but they will still go to a Catholic school. As will Jews, Muslims, Protestants and everyone else.

It's equality of opportunity Jack. Everyone has the opportunity to go to a school that meets their faith requirements without unduly disadvantaging those without a religious denomination.

Let's say that Jewish school produced amazing results. There is a house next door to the school where an atheist child lives. The school is oversubscribed. The atheist child automatically last on the list because they aren't Jewish. Is that fair?

[jack90210]

I was giving an example of how a non-catholic could be passed over in his school of choice. Remember, you claimed it was impossible for it to happen.

-'As for for Jewish school above. Isn't that exactly what the Act prevents? Text below, no mention of catholic, just religion.


What am I missing? On what basis can this oversubscribed Jewish school discriminate based on religion?

I haven't read the Bill in detail but all media reports and Minister statements have said minority religious schools can discriminate even if publicly funded.

[Kayroo]

Let's say that Jewish school produced amazing results. There is a house next door to the school where an atheist child lives. The school is oversubscribed. The atheist child automatically last on the list because they aren't Jewish. Is that fair?

It's proportionate to the aims of the Act. Yes, it is fair on the whole. It would also be a tiny fraction of an even smaller percentage of cases where that would happen rather than being the daily lived experience for atheist children living in urban areas.

You can't view these things through such tiny tiny prisms. The fact is at the moment that exact situation happens to atheist children every day. Except instead of having the option of the school a bit further away they face the exact same problem in every school. The proposed solution balances the rights of all religions to expose their children to a religious education of their choosing without unfairly prejudicing those who do not profess to have a religion.

Or, to put it another way, the law is fair.

[Kayroo]

Just to help you a bit here Jack -

@Mellor:

Minority religious schools will be allowed discriminate on admissions based on religion for the reasons I've set out in my other posts. Even if publicly funded. This Act removes religious admissions policies for the 90% of schools that are Catholic in effect.

[jack90210]

It's proportionate to the aims of the Act. Yes, it is fair on the whole. It would also be a tiny fraction of an even smaller percentage of cases where that would happen rather than being the daily lived experience for atheist children living in urban areas.

You can't view these things through such tiny tiny prisms. The fact is at the moment that exact situation happens to atheist children every day. Except instead of having the option of the school a bit further away they face the exact same problem in every school. The proposed solution balances the rights of all religions to expose their children to a religious education of their choosing without unfairly prejudicing those who do not profess to have a religion.

Or, to put it another way, the law is fair.

OK so we're agreed that's your opinion though not a fact.

In my view I get what people are saying about the Catholic schools but it's not fair to just pick one religion and single it out like this. A quick Google indicates there is 174 Church of Ireland primary schools in Ireland who will receive this protection that is not an insignficant number

[Kayroo]

OK so we're agreed that's your opinion though not a fact.

In my view I get what people are saying about the Catholic schools but it's not fair to just pick one religion and single it out like this. A quick Google indicates there is 174 Church of Ireland primary schools in Ireland who will receive this protection that is not an insignficant number

You asked my opinion. It's not a revelation that I gave it. I also reasoned it out and gave a supporting argument.

As for your opinion, I'm afraid it's less supported by rational argument.

This Act doesn't stop Catholics going to Catholic school. If it applied the religious admissions bar to all religions it would stop protestants and jews and muslims from going to schools of their chosen faith.

So, logically, the fairest outcome is the one that allows all faiths to send their children to schools of their chosen faith and for those who have no religion to also go to their local schools. That is the fairest result for everyone.

[Strewelpeter]

As someone who spends a good bit of time around the Hackney area of North London Orthodox Jewish schools aren't a place anyone from outside their own community is going to be queuing up to send their kids

The phenomenon of unauthorised religious schools there is bizarre and shocking.

[careca]

Left there after one pint, took about 3x longer to get it than to drink it.

Is it just me or is the standard of bar staff gone to shite (since Ronnie drew died). None of them can take more than 1 order at a time and seem to sit waiting on the Guinness to settle before serving the next customer. One twat in forty foot last week smiled at me as he waited on the Guinness then proceeded to serve a lad who just arrived at the counter as he finished that order. I told him I was next and in fairness he apologised but it was blatantly obvious.

[DeadParrot]

Irish Poker Pince, 7pm tonight, The Brewdock down by Connolly Station. Your Dobbys, your Riggers, your AFBs, your Luckforsomes, your Lazares are all confirmed attending. Gon be leral.

I'm at a funeral so sadly won't make it.
Have cuddles with everyone for me

[eamonhonda]

Is it just me or is the standard of bar staff gone to shite (since Ronnie drew died). None of them can take more than 1 order at a time and seem to sit waiting on the Guinness to settle before serving the next customer. One twat in forty foot last week smiled at me as he waited on the Guinness then proceeded to serve a lad who just arrived at the counter as he finished that order. I told him I was next and in fairness he apologised but it was blatantly obvious.

Agreed, toners is normally one of the exceptions though, usually fly through drinks out, young lad on the Guinness tap at all times. There's a few more exceptions.

Craft beer trendy type bars are the worst. Hire someone who has a couple of tattoos and funky hair instead of someone who can actually bartend

I don't think your average bar manager has sat down to do the maths that paying for good barmen will earn you more in long run

[careca]

Agreed, toners is normally one of the exceptions though, usually fly through drinks out, young lad on the Guinness tap at all times. There's a few more exceptions.

Craft beer trendy type bars are the worst. Hire someone who has a couple of tattoos and funky hair instead of someone who can actually bartend

I don't think your average bar manager has sat down to do the maths that paying for good barmen will earn you more in long run

Slatts in rathmines would have 1 barman upstairs after a golf event serving 40 or 50 people and he would have 5 or 6 orders on the go. Def pays to have that experience.

[Denny Crane]

Is it just me or is the standard of bar staff gone to shite (since Ronnie drew died). None of them can take more than 1 order at a time and seem to sit waiting on the Guinness to settle before serving the next customer. One twat in forty foot last week smiled at me as he waited on the Guinness then proceeded to serve a lad who just arrived at the counter as he finished that order. I told him I was next and in fairness he apologised but it was blatantly obvious.

It's a real mix. I refuse to drink in places like the Black Sheep. Hate gigs in the Sugar Club. It's bizarre how bad some places are. People standing in a queue aren't drinking, and then put off going up for another round. There's plenty of spots in town that could add double digits in revenue with competent staff.

Places like the old Capital Bar pubs (mostly Mercantile Group now) are always excellent, those bar staff are like a well oiled machine.

Agreed, toners is normally one of the exceptions though, usually fly through drinks out, young lad on the Guinness tap at all times. There's a few more exceptions.

Craft beer trendy type bars are the worst. Hire someone who has a couple of tattoos and funky hair instead of someone who can actually bartend

I don't think your average bar manager has sat down to do the maths that paying for good barmen will earn you more in long run

Toners was just filled to the gills, but they still could have done a better job. Yeah stoned hipsters looking at their phones need to GTFO of bars.

[eamonhonda]

Sugar club book way too many great acts considering how shite the place is.