Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - Mammy told me not to come.

[V for Vendetta]

I have a clip of the finish that c4 tweeted but it's the hour around the race c. 4.30 ->5:30
And the morning line from that day if it was there.

As I say I have it all on a sky box but I need to get it into a mp4 or whatever.
I might buy the capture card that's on eBay but not sure I'll get it in time.

Anything to be said for emailing C4 and explaining your connection to the horse?

[hotspur]

But in reality there is no medical, legal or philosophical consensus that 12 weeks is the moment at which a zygote or foetus changes from a part of the woman's body to something different, right? Lots and lots and lots of discussion on this out there, going back to literally ancient times, but no consensus.

Right now I'm a Repeal voter and it's very unlikely I change my mind... but I struggle with squaring my heartfelt belief that a woman should be able to choose with a niggling doubt that the 'perhaps a foetus is a human being, and if so...' rabbit hole argument has some validity.

Which is why I asked earlier do we think that the vast majority of Repeal voters believe that abortion terminates a non-human collection of cells, as I'd imagine that's the only way many would be happy to vote for Repeal; i.e. it might be hard to vote to enable abortion if you thought humans were being aborted!

Of course there are so many other things to consider (and which have already been brought up in earlier posts); the procedure is available in nearby jurisdictions, people are going to make that choice regardless, let's make it safe etc... for them to do so in Ireland. Still feel it is very difficult to square the circle if you have any doubts about when exactly personhood begins.

A lot of us here know that people are poor when it comes to Bayesian probability. Well that applies to ethics too. I have sat in medical ethics classes where complex ethical issues get discussed where there are competing ethical principles, and people would consistently base their response of just focusing on one of the ethical principles.

They had no mechanism of computing different ones in the same mental space. And these were people studying medical ethics, not random people trying to find a position on an ethical issue.

So I believe there are plenty of people who believe that the foetus is human life from either conception or within weeks (or are woolly about it because science cannot tell them and it's open to definitions), and who also believe in freedom of choice not to have 9 months of pregnancy / raise an unwanted child.

Without a mechanism whereby they can make a calculation based on these two competing things they just focus on one of them. I think the conditions which give rise to which they focus their attention on are social in nature. Some people's views and attention get determined by religion, others by cultural ideas about autonomy.

Interestingly, although research shows that nonmaleficence is the ethical principle most strongly endorsed in medical ethics studies, it doesn't lead to that being the principle most strongly weighted in actual specific ethical examples choices. It appears that in specific examples what people choose is determined by the specifics of the individual case.

I think people are terrible are making complex ethical decisions with competing principles, and the abortion debate is one that many abandon because they are in touch with their inability to analyse it to a conclusion.

Hmm - the thing is I don't believe that life is sacred or anything (I'm in favour of legalising euthanasia, don't have much a problem with capital punishment in certain circumstances), so the possibility of a human dying isn't as big an obstacle to me as it might be to others!

I assume you mean sacred not in the religious sense. If you don't believe that life is sacred then I can't imagine you believe anything in life is sacred, as everything else is contingent upon there being life in the first place. In which case it might be better phrased that you don't (currently) feel a sense of reverence or hold deeply to any high values, rather than applying it specifically to "life".

[Strewelpeter]

Anything to be said for emailing C4 and explaining your connection to the horse?

They don't keep or sell archives that weren't marketed.

Ah I'll get it sorted at some stage, a DVD recorder would do it's just that the lads are looking for it for something that s on next weekend.

[Tar.Aldarion]

Hmm - the thing is I don't believe that life is sacred or anything (I'm in favour of legalising euthanasia, don't have much a problem with capital punishment in certain circumstances), so the possibility of a human dying isn't as big an obstacle to me as it might be to others!

I just wonder do many people just not think about the tough questions out of a desire to keep things that much simpler for themselves. I lean that way myself to be honest. Same as not wanting to think about where my steak comes from or how sausages are made.

As true as it was when I first posted it two weeks ago

In the words of a hero of mine, Sophie Scholl, who was executed at 21 in Germany in 1943:

The real damage is done by those millions who want to 'survive.' The honest men who just want to be left in peace. Those who don’t want their little lives disturbed by anything bigger than themselves. Those with no sides and no causes. Those who won’t take measure of their own strength, for fear of antagonizing their own weakness. Those who don’t like to make waves—or enemies. Those for whom freedom, honour, truth, and principles are only literature. Those who live small, mate small, die small. It’s the reductionist approach to life: if you keep it small, you’ll keep it under control. If you don’t make any noise, the bogeyman won’t find you. But it’s all an illusion, because they die too, those people who roll up their spirits into tiny little balls so as to be safe. Safe?! From what? Life is always on the edge of death; narrow streets lead to the same place as wide avenues, and a little candle burns itself out just like a flaming torch does. I choose my own way to burn.


While walking to her execution Sophie's last words were "How can we expect righteousness to prevail when there is hardly anyone willing to give himself up individually to a righteous cause? Such a fine, sunny day, and I have to go, but what does my death matter, if through us, thousands of people are awakened and stirred to action?"

That something above is something I've thought about/struggled with a lot, the temptation to collapse into hedonism/nihilism or the opposite and be a martyr. The answer for me and many others of course lies between, to do what you can do, improve upon yourself whilst also practicing self-care to sustain your wellbeing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Most_Good_You_Can_Do is a good short book on that.

As for the ammendment, there are multiple aspects that collide for me, the ethics of abortion in general, does it belong in the constitution - repealing doesn't say anything about what we do after that, rights of autonomy, list goes on. Weighing up these things is quite hard, and I know of no ethics framework where people are happy with the logical conclusions of all ethical scenarios presented to them, whether it be their mind or their heart rebelling. It reminds me of classical vs quantum mechanics, there is no philosophical model we can apply to everything (that we can intuitively handle anyway). People struggle with doublethinkish thoughts/cognitive dissonance/cultural conditioning/logical fallacies with far simpler scenarios (and suffer from lack of introspection most of all), it's always going to be messy.

[Guest]

I don't really agree with that quote and it's not that surprising that it comes from a 21 year old. You can certainly want to be left in peace and take no sides or causes while concurrently testing your own strength and resolve to their absolute limits. You can avoid making enemies and ignore abstract stuff like honour, and you can live large without having any interest in having a righteous cause.
In fact I'd have more time for the exact opposite type of person who quietly goes about their shit in a rational way, without imposing their values on you.

[oleras]

Hmm - the thing is I don't believe that life is sacred or anything (I'm in favour of legalising euthanasia, don't have much a problem with capital punishment in certain circumstances), so the possibility of a human dying isn't as big an obstacle to me as it might be to others!

.

This reply was the equivalent of the foot against the door just as the weirdo that wanted to tell you about the kingdom of God tried to step in...well dodged !!

[mocata]

Tell me more on the fancy flight pillow.

I have tried the memory foam, the beads and the cushion and cant get any to work.

Something similar to this got it off amazon i think

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F232568958872

between it and the headphones I couldnt feel vibrations or hear a thing from engines etc so got 6 hours quality kip.

[Lazare]

Berlin is awesome. Such a great city.

One observation though in my eight hours here.

You can walk along the street drinking beer. You can avail of the services of an establishment that offers all you can eat pizza, all you can drink beer and all you can sex with naked women. A british bulldog can scateboard down the street, barking people out of his way.

You can party 24 hours, take whatever drugs you want while doing so.

But. You can't walk across the road on a red man.

[Tar.Aldarion]

I don't really agree with that quote and it's not that surprising that it comes from a 21 year old. You can certainly want to be left in peace and take no sides or causes while concurrently testing your own strength and resolve to their absolute limits. You can avoid making enemies and ignore abstract stuff like honour, and you can live large without having any interest in having a righteous cause.
In fact I'd have more time for the exact opposite type of person who quietly goes about their shit in a rational way, without imposing their values on you.

You seem like you've lived a small and sheltered life?

[oleras]

The new episodes of Rosanne are really very good, some very funny writing.

I also watched the pilot to The last OG, Tracy Morgan show, also very funny.

I seem to be laughing a lot at comedies more than i used to, belly laughs, either they have gotten better or for some reason I am more easily amused as i get older.

[Guest]

Enjoyable segment on Joe Rogan about ridiculous watches:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsZaOlCEmYs

[6starpool]

As true as it was when I first posted it two weeks ago



That something above is something I've thought about/struggled with a lot, the temptation to collapse into hedonism/nihilism or the opposite and be a martyr. The answer for me and many others of course lies between, to do what you can do, improve upon yourself whilst also practicing self-care to sustain your wellbeing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Most_Good_You_Can_Do is a good short book on that.

As for the ammendment, there are multiple aspects that collide for me, the ethics of abortion in general, does it belong in the constitution - repealing doesn't say anything about what we do after that, rights of autonomy, list goes on. Weighing up these things is quite hard, and I know of no ethics framework where people are happy with the logical conclusions of all ethical scenarios presented to them, whether it be their mind or their heart rebelling. It reminds me of classical vs quantum mechanics, there is no philosophical model we can apply to everything (that we can intuitively handle anyway). People struggle with doublethinkish thoughts/cognitive dissonance/cultural conditioning/logical fallacies with far simpler scenarios (and suffer from lack of introspection most of all), it's always going to be messy.

If you don't want to disclose your views, that's fine, but in general is being a vegan not incompatible for wanting to repeal the 8th? Obviously the foetuses are not eaten, but would not a similar set of morals apply?

[6starpool]

They don't keep or sell archives that weren't marketed.

Ah I'll get it sorted at some stage, a DVD recorder would do it's just that the lads are looking for it for something that s on next weekend.

As a last resort you can just play it on the tv, mount a phone (or other recording device so that it is fixed, crank up the sound a bit, and record it on your phone. You'd lose quality obviously, but it would be something if you can't find any other answer.

[jack90210]

I must say there does seem to be more uncertainty around repeal on here than I first thought. Would indicate that the vote is going to be a lot closer than the odds suggest if you factor in that most likely the 38% who voted against gay marriage are almost certs to vote against abortion (not that they are in anyway the same!!! but I am guessing the no on that are the most extreme conservatives in the country - that was with virtually no campaign on the no side). Add in that older people are far more likely to vote etc etc should be a close run thing.

[Tar.Aldarion]

If you don't want to disclose your views, that's fine, but in general is being a vegan not incompatible for wanting to repeal the 8th? Obviously the foetuses are not eaten, but would not a similar set of morals apply?

Hold the show, we don't get to eat the babies?

I can't speak for a diverse set of beliefs under one umbrella but I can give you an idea of what I think the majority think.
The belief that it is okay to kill animals, and the belief that it is not okay to kill an unborn human is actually underpinned by the same belief in a lot of cases: the sanctity of human life.
If you believe that human life, and only human life, is sacred, and define a fetus to be human life, then it's logical to accept the slaughter of animals, but not abortion.
Vegans generally reject that belief. Vegans believe that what makes a life valuable is a subjective experience: your life matters if it can matter to you.
So from this vegan perspective ending the life of a developing human, before it has a nervous system, and thus a capacity to have a subjective experience, is notproblematic.

Another main thing people would bring up is bodily autonomy. If your sister was dying and needed your kidney, nobody could force you to give it to her. Nobody should be able to force someone to carry someone else in their body, and nobody should be able to force anyone to be slaughtered and eaten etc.
So even if you disagree with abortion personally, you don't get the right to inflict that on others.

TLDR; the point of veganism is that we shouldn't have control over others bodies.

[Lao Lao]

You can avail of the services of an establishment that offers all you can eat pizza, all you can drink beer and all you can sex with naked women.

If you've found a place that offers all three under the one roof, you may just have stumbled across utopia...

[ComradeCollie]

If you've found a place that offers all three under the one roof, you may just have stumbled across utopia...

Sounds like a previously unimagined level of hell to me.

[Lao Lao]

Sounds like a previously unimagined level of hell to me.

Do you not like pizza?

[ComradeCollie]

Do you not like pizza?

Or beer. I'd settle on the naked women as the least unpleasant of the three.

[ComradeCollie]

About to treat myself to my new 5 units of alcohol a week allowance. Tried it last Friday after 3 months completely dry without any repercussions.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[oleras]

About to treat myself to my new 5 units of alcohol a week allowance. Tried it last Friday after 3 months completely dry without any repercussions.

Self imposed or directed ?

The night i got out i had a few beers...haven't looked back.

The no cigs and the meds now will help a lot with slowing down the disease.

Disease sounds a bit strange, cvd, but thats what it is i suppose.

[ArmaniJeans]

I think we were pretty unanimous here about SSM and that ultimately translated into 62% countrywide.
Even excluding Jack (who I don't think was around for SSM debate) its clear there are some dissenting or doubtful voices about this one, so it's reasonable to say its veering towards the low 50s for repeal at best.

Post may lack good scientific methodology in fairness.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[jack90210]

I'd say we're still, if pushed on it, 80-90% pro the amendment being removed. Its just not the obvious celebratory event that SSM was. The issue is how many people will make the effort to vote if they're not too pushed.

Brilliant posting on the topic here today and yesterday btw.

The hardcore on both sides obviously vote. If you count pro-amendment at a floor of 38%.

I think anyone who is against it makes the effort to vote. I think repeals biggest risk is that its sort of the spoken narrative that it will pass easy enough so people might sit at home as you said earlier.

[ComradeCollie]

Self imposed or directed ?

The night i got out i had a few beers...haven't looked back.

Mostly self imposed . Really don't want to go back to the situation when 100 units or less was a good week, and finishing off a bottle of whiskey on a Friday or Saturday evening wasn't unusual.

[DeadParrot]

As a last resort you can just play it on the tv, mount a phone (or other recording device so that it is fixed, crank up the sound a bit, and record it on your phone. You'd lose quality obviously, but it would be something if you can't find any other answer.

I mean, at a last resort sure, but hooking a dvd writer up to the box is also a possibility.

i'll have a scout around tonight

[dobby]

Brilliant posting on the topic here today and yesterday btw.

Yes, absolutely, which is why I asked here in the first place. Was driving all.day today so only caught up on everything this evening and was nice to get some differing opinions and views.

[BennyHiFi]

I see that scoundrel Billy 'King of Kong' Mitchell, has been stripped of his Donkey Kong world record. Finally!

And as it's Friday here's a great little animated b-boy video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=14&v=U_1vNMoNkC8

[jack90210]

Just found out Canada has absolutely no legal restriction on abortion at any stage before birth.

[jack90210]

Did you find out by reading RDIII's post on here yesterday evening? How did you feel about the treatment of Italy in that table?

I missed Canada on that table to be honest as I was focused on the 12 week ones. Just shows that there will always be calls to increase the 12 week limit further from some quarters.

I feel Italy was treated fine as 12 weeks + 6 = 90 days. Whereas I'm assuming the 12 week limit is up to and including the 12th week which is 91 days.

[Strewelpeter]

Just found out Canada has absolutely no legal restriction on abortion at any stage before birth.

How many discretionary (viable and to a healthy mother) third trimester abortions are carried out there annually?

[jack90210]

How many discretionary (viable and to a healthy mother) third trimester abortions are carried out there annually?

No idea but that its even an option boggles the mind.

How long till you get people arguing that its not right that women 12-24 weeks have to travel to UK and then the pressure is put on to increase the limit further here. Some on the repeal side have already said they will do this.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

...

[Kayroo]

Some on the repeal side have already said they will do this.

Really? Who?

I assume you mean high profile leaders of the Repeal movement?

[jack90210]

You know it's a democracy right. Some people can argue that you should be able to put a horn on a donkeys head and fuck them as unicorns, but there needs to be a majority of political representatives to allow that donkeys-as-unicorn fucking that we all need and desire. Plus we need future politicians to not take away our joyous donkeys-as-unicorn fucking pleasures. Societies change, we don't need people from 1983 to be telling us how to live our life today. It should be legislated not constitutionalised so that each generation can determine their current generally accepted morals.

Murder - actual murder - is legislated for by politicians and not in the constitution. Yet this is. Come on dude.

Well I'm sure Kayroo will be along soon to clear it up but fairly sure the Constitution would prevent the State from making certain killings legal.

Article 40 3 1 and 40 3 2 indicate the State must in its laws protect the life of a person.

[oleras]

This is beautiful. Full screen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuUWq7qGSro

[jack90210]

Really? Who?

I assume you mean high profile leaders of the Repeal movement?

Senator Lynn Ruane, with the support of People before Profit TD Bríd Smith, proposed allowing terminations up to 22 weeks. Fine Gael TD Kate O'Connell and Independents4Change TD Clare Daly backed the recommendation but the rest of the committee voted against it. Irish Times 13/12/17.

[Kayroo]

You know it's a democracy right. Some people can argue that you should be able to put a horn on a donkeys head and fuck them as unicorns, but there needs to be a majority of political representatives to allow that donkeys-as-unicorn fucking that we all need and desire. Plus we need future politicians to not take away our joyous donkeys-as-unicorn fucking pleasures. Societies change, we don't need people from 1983 to be telling us how to live our life today. It should be legislated not constitutionalised so that each generation can determine their current generally accepted morals.

Murder - actual murder - is legislated for by politicians and not in the constitution. Yet this is. Come on dude.

Yeah pretty much all of this is wrong. Sorry Hitch.

EDIT: NVM Jack I didn’t see your answer

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[jack90210]

That's it there. The state acknowledges the right to life of the unborn. Where does it talk about murder? Just says it'll vindicate, not that there is a right to life for Irish actual people.

I'll let you debate this out with Kayroo. Good luck.

[Guest]

This is beautiful. Full screen.

It's a masterpiece, you could near enough cut the whole film into sections and go look at this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubVc2MQwMkg

[Kayroo]

That's it there. The state acknowledges the right to life of the unborn. Where does it talk about murder? Just says it'll vindicate, not that there is a right to life for Irish actual people.

Yeah...

You’re wrong about this. Reading it a tiny bit too literally there Hitch

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[oleras]

It's a masterpiece, you could near enough cut the whole film into sections and go look at this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubVc2MQwMkg

I need to watch the full directors cut some day.

Some great debate on the tuco blondie relationship

[Guest]

I need to watch the full directors cut some day.

Yes, yes you do

[oleras]

Did we have a movie club ?

Seems like a dream.

2 weeks to watch a classic, that could be voted on, and then discussed.

First up...^^^^

[oleras]

2 bottles of wine and up at 6 for work....yeahhhh

[Guest]

Did we have a movie club ?

Seems like a dream.

2 weeks to watch a classic, that could be voted on, and then discussed.

First up...^^^^

There were a few film threads where people rec'd films from 70's and 80's

Lads put up a load of films

I rec'd a load of 30's to 60's (mostly comedy) films to hitch a few years ago



*Start a thread, I'm sure people would add to it, book one going well!

[Trippie]

I need to watch the full directors cut some day.

Some great debate on the tuco blondie relationship

I saw this at the IFC years ago, it was sublime

[MrsFlushdraw]

I think there could be a lot of floating voters (abortion is icky, but want women's health rights) who decide that the best route for them is to sit at home and not vote.

To me and the whole repeal thing. It is not about unlimited getyerownabortion culture for lazy woman who can't be arsed going on the pill, using a Jonny etc. It is for these poor woman who have gone through traumatic times.

From Donegal Woman, and been used as part of the repeal

"It was the 1st of November 2009 when I heard the news that my much wanted second child had fatal foetal abnormalities and would not survive. I was 19 weeks pregnant and this was my first scan. I had been waking up crying for about a month before I was told the news by anyone medical. I just had a feeling that something was wrong. I was told that basically my baby was going to die. It might live and go full term and die after birth, or it could die tomorrow! The only certainty was that my baby was going to die.

I was calm when I received the news. I was calm and strong while myself and my two year old son waited for my husband to arrive at the hospital. He had to work that day so I had gone alone to the scan along with my little son. I was calm when my husband arrived and the sonographer came into the room to talk to us. She told us our baby was very very sick. I simply said “Ok so, what next? If my wee baby is so sick, when will I be induced?” "

That was the Tuesday and I was told that they would bring me in on the Thursday for induction. I went home and cried. I grieved. I hugged my son Jack and my husband and we all grieved together. I organised for my mum and dad to come up on the Thursday to mind Jack while I went into hospital. I felt so much sadness but I also felt calm and ready as my little family had had the couple of days to prepare.

When we arrived at the hospital the staff were fantastic and so considerate of myself and my husband’s feelings. It was all very calm and respectful. My baby boy Sam was born at 2am on Friday the 10th of December 2009. He was beautiful and very like his big brother. We got to hold our son.

It was the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do but I got home the next day and had loads of support from family, friends and the medical team from the hospital. It would take time but we could start to move forward again.

Unfortunately, I would love if the above was true. However, I live in Ireland so let me tell you what really happened.

“Ok so, what next? If my wee baby is so sick, when will I be induced?” The sonographer’s response was, “I’m very sorry Nicola, we can’t do that, not in Ireland.” “What? Then what will happen? When will my baby be born? I can’t wait another 20 weeks knowing my baby is so sick. Oh my God, oh my God. You have to induce me. Why can’t you?”

To which I got the response, “That is classed as an abortion in Ireland, we can’t perform an induction while your baby is alive, it can only be done after your baby has died.” It was at this stage I stopped being calm. I lost control. I couldn’t comprehend this.

After the doctors had confirmed my babies diagnosis, they left the room. One of the female doctors gave me the name of a crisis pregnancy counsellor in town before she left. It was then left up to the sonographer to deal with me. I have to say she was amazing. She explained to me that some of her other parents in the same situation had travelled to the UK to avail of a termination. I couldn’t believe what I was hearing.

I couldn’t fault her. She was so kind. She told me I could call up to her at any time for a scan to check on my baby.

The next morning I travelled to Holles Street from Donegal. The consultant there just confirmed what I already knew. We asked what we should do. He told us that we would have to continue with the pregnancy unless we travelled overseas for a termination. He said that if I lived in the UK or Europe I would be offered a termination.

On the Thursday, I visited the crisis counsellor. She was very good and helped me ring around the UK hospitals to find out a bit more about travelling for the procedure. What we found out was that because I was 19 weeks pregnant the procedure would probably be around £1600. Factor into that the travel and accommodation costs and we were taking well over £2000. Also, if I didn’t have the procedure before I was 21 weeks pregnant the cost would rise considerably again.

I felt under such pressure to make a quick decision as I could barely afford the fee as it was. Let me now add that both myself and my husband were looking for work after moving home to Donegal. The recession was just beginning. My husband was getting a few days with a friend but had nothing steady. We had spent our little bit of savings on our house. We could not afford this type of money.
This was the beginning of what was to be the most stressful few days of my life. Close friends were offering us money as a gift. Anyone who knew what we were going through wanted to help. I really wanted to travel so that we could start to get on with our lives again. However, the thought of leaving my two year old son behind nearly broke me. Also, the whole ordeal of travelling overseas and also putting my little family into debt nearly drove me insane. Couple that with feeling my little baby’s movements every few hours and you can only start to imagine how I felt.

And so began an agonising journey. I was functioning just for the sake of my husband and Jack. It was like a dream. I could feel Sam’s little movements. They were more like a flutter than a kick. He was obviously very weak.

I’d never had sleep problems before but now I used to wake up to the feeling of his slight movements and I would lie awake wondering was he suffering as much as his mum.

Once I let the sonographer know my decision, I agreed that I would visit her for a scan every Monday morning to see how Sam was getting on. My son Jack came with us to the scans.

I remember one day arriving and the sonographer told me sympathetically that she could hardly see Sam today. She said he was all curled up and seemed very unwell today.

Can you imagine how that feels? To think of your wee sick baby all curled up inside you? Wondering was he in pain? There were times after I heard this that I literally couldn’t stand up with grief. I couldn’t get that picture out of my head. I never will. I feel like curling up as I write this.
I stopped going out very much as I didn’t want people to ask me how far gone I was and when I was due. Two of my best friends were pregnant with their first babies and were due within weeks of me. I still tried to be upbeat and happy for them. I knew when I spoke to them that their hearts were breaking for me. I felt like I was tainting their first pregnancy with my awful situation.

On one of the few occasions that I went anywhere, my friends brought me for a spa treatment. The therapist asked me all upbeat about my pregnancy. I simply said “my baby is dying, please don’t ask me about it”. I’ll always remember the poor girl’s face.

I remember Sam dying inside of me! It was 5am on Saturday the 5th of December. I could hardly feel his movements that day. I would whisper to him, “Go baby, mammy allows you to go.”

I woke at 5am. I had broken out in a cold sweat. I felt sharp pains in my stomach. I knew he was gone. I waited for my next scan which was 3 days later. I spent the weekend coming to terms with the fact he was gone and at peace. I was 24 weeks pregnant. Before the sonographer turned on the ultrasound I told her he was gone. She confirmed it straight away.

Now let me tell you, I had not seen a doctor since they broke the news to me that Sam was dying. Once they had broken the news to me they had walked out of the room. Now the sonographer had to get a doctor to confirm that there was indeed no heartbeat. The doctor came and confirmed it. He then said, “We can take you in this evening to deliver your baby”. What? Just like that?
What about the 5 weeks I was after going through? If it hadn’t of been for the sonographer I would have had no contact with the hospital at all. I told the doctor, no, I would not be in that evening. I had a two year old and I had to make arrangements for his care.

I came into hospital on Thursday 9th December and Sam was indeed born at 2.40am on the 10th. He was beautiful. Myself and my husband held him. I felt very peaceful.

I got out the next day. We had a wee service for Sam the following Thursday. I wasn’t feeling well and ended up back in hospital that evening. In fact, I ended up spending two weeks in hospital after his birth. I had to have two D&Cs and two blood transfusions, due to an infection from part of the placenta being left behind.

SPOILER

I got out for Christmas Day but ended up back in on St Stephen’s Day. For the final week I was there I was in a ward in the gynecological department. Every night several new women would be admitted to the ward with miscarriages, and I would have to lie there listening to them crying on their phones to family members or their mums. It was horrific.

I didn’t get a chance to grieve for my Sam. When I had to have my final blood transfusion two of the nurses had to hold me down to insert the needle, as I was so distraught. I got out on New Year’s Eve. My husband had to take me to our local NowDoc who prescribed valium. I was convinced I’d have to go back into hospital and was having panic attacks. My poor son didn’t know what was happening to his mum.

And so I started on the road to recovery. What could have been such a short ordeal turned into a 4 month ordeal. We had to wait until March 2010 to receive the results of genetic testing that was carried out on Sam. We were told to hold off trying for another baby until we received these results as we needed to make sure Sam’s condition wasn’t passed on through us.
Throughout my whole ordeal I had felt an overwhelming sense of abandonment. We were very much alone. Our friends and family were brilliant but I felt like we had been let down by our medical system and by the government.

I am at peace now with my son’s illness and his death. However, I am not at peace with the fact that in our time of need this country turned its back on us. You can only imagine how I felt when it started coming to light that so many other 3 of 4 women had went through what I did. When I started hearing about the women who had travelled abroad and the ordeal they had to also go through, the anger and feeling of abandonment grew.

I was only starting to recover from depression at the time and constant stories on the TV and radio made it impossible for me to move forward. Making the decision to travel, or making the decision to stay because you feel you have no choice, it doesn’t matter. Either way you are alone and the country you call home abandons you during what can only be described as the hardest and most heartbreaking time of your life.
Speaking this week, Nicola said she is at peace with her baby boy’s illness. She has had two children following that pregnancy in 2009, a little boy and a girl.

Her experience still affects her terribly, she says: “It’s been fresh in my mind recently because of the fight that ladies are going through to get the Eighth amendment changed.”

“I’ve been to counselling, I can visit my child’s grave. What haunts me is the way that I was treated and the way that women are still being treated.

“Making the decision to travel or stay was nearly worse than the diagnosis. Some would have made the decision I made and some would have travelled. I stayed behind, but I don’t believe I received the care that should have received. Whether you stay in Ireland or travel to the UK, you are swept under the carpet.”

“This was 10 years ago, I don’t know if maybe things have changed, but between Holles Street and the last scan confirming his death I never saw a doctor.”

Nicola’s account has been used in an Oireachtas submission by the Abortion Rights Campaign to the Special Committee on the 8th Amendment. In the campaign, she has met other Irish women who are facing the same agonising decisions.
Nicola will be calling for a Repeal of the Eighth amendment on May 25th, so the law can allow women to have the option of ending their pregnancy early in Ireland after the diagnosis of a fatal foetal condition.

Nicola added: “This is going on every day. There other women going through what I’ve been through. It is women coming out with their stories that can change things.”

Spoilered the rest as it was what happened next etc.

Sorry for the long post. But if one more person reads this, and maybe sees that there is more to this than just abortion on demand and by voting no, that you are condemning more woman to suffer like the above, then I have maybe helped in some way since I can not vote myself.

[tylerdurden94]

Something similar to this got it off amazon i think

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F232568958872

between it and the headphones I couldnt feel vibrations or hear a thing from engines etc so got 6 hours quality kip.

I've been on the look out for a new neck pillow for flying but that contraption looks absolutely gas, don't think I could do it though.

[Raoul Duke III]

Just found out Canada has absolutely no legal restriction on abortion at any stage before birth.

That doesn't mean Canadians are aborting away merrily well into the third trimester.

Doctors must have very urgent medical grounds for doing so (baby\mother\both going to die)

[Raoul Duke III]

That doesn't mean Canadians are aborting away merrily well into the third trimester.

Doctors must have very urgent medical grounds for doing so (baby\mother\both going to die)

Upon further research:

Over 90% of abortions in Canada are done in the first trimester; only 2-3% are done after 16 weeks, and no doctor performs abortions past 20 or 21 weeks unless there are compelling health or genetic reasons

Which kinda reinforces my stereotype of Canadians as rather sensible people.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

...

[jack90210]

Upon further research:



Which kinda reinforces my stereotype of Canadians as rather sensible people.

"Compelling health or genetic reasons" is the key there.

[Guest]

Me: seeyouatmidnight
Wife: Final Nudge
Daughter: I Just Know
Son: Baie des Iles


gl all!

You should let the kids pick your horses from now on

[Denny Crane]

The hardcore on both sides obviously vote. If you count pro-amendment at a floor of 38%.

I think anyone who is against it makes the effort to vote. I think repeals biggest risk is that its sort of the spoken narrative that it will pass easy enough so people might sit at home as you said earlier.

Idk it's quite an emotive topic for a lot of people who've been fighting for this for years, and it affects a lot more people than the marriage ref. Don't think there's going to be many woman under 35 sitting this one out, or letting their partner sit it out.