Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - Mammy told me not to come.

[jack90210]

Posts like this give rise to my contempt.

https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/new...n-a-scrimmage/

[Hectorjelly]

But you gave your example of a child interpreting it negatively?

Yes, I suppose he had a good point in that its easy to ascribe our own thinking onto childrens, but that said I don't think its worth my energy looking up studies to show the importance of gender in role models.

[shano1888]

Posts like this give rise to my contempt.

Goodie gumdrops.

Iago posted an informed and reasoned response to something you said. You ignored the merits of his post and carried on with your agenda. How does that feel? To have someone ignore what you have said and pick up on something inane?

I don't really believe what i said in my last post but you are posting narrow minded divisive tripe. It is literally the reason Trump got elected and literally the reason abortion (within reason) may not get passed in this country. Well played.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[dobby]

What's extreme about it? Darts and F1, too pretty backwards, males dominated sports have just announced they are going to stop using them. Clearly this is because they feel that's in line with what most people think, so it really isn't an extreme opinion.

It's not just this particular point. It's how you come across any time anything about sexism or equality is posted. You're usually one of the first to respond and tell people they're wrong if its a post that disagrees with your opinion and you make it sound like we should all be bowing at women's feet. That's why it's extreme.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yes, I suppose he had a good point in that its easy to ascribe our own thinking onto childrens, but that said I don't think its worth my energy looking up studies to show the importance of gender in role models.

But not everyone should be a role model or be expected to be one. It's up to parents/family/teachers etc to educate kids and point them in the direction of role models in and out of the areas the kid is interested in

[Raoul Duke III]

Name me a sport that isn't male dominated?

netball

[Guest]

netball

Happened to flick onto that last week on Eurosport. Gotta be the nut worst sport.

[Guest]

Looks like HJ has gone all in on the Toxic Masculinity meme

[Solksjaer!]

Happened to flick onto that last week on Eurosport. Gotta be the nut worst sport.

Wimmins darts imo.

Netball was on men and motors every night . Was great. Any red blooded men who doesn't like the goofy wimmin in netball has a 1cc sperm count .

[Guest]

Stop objectifying goofballs.

[Lazare]

What's extreme about it? Darts and F1, too pretty backwards, males dominated sports...

Fairly dangerous to go backwards in either.

Rowing, now that's a backwards sport.

[Closed_Account]

Objectification is objectionable.

Why

[Closed_Account]

Its a subtle difference, but I don't believe that. The job shouldn't exist rather than women being blocked from choosing it.

Why should it not exsist

Should male model also not exsist

What other jobs should not exist under this flag of what I had presumed to be subtle trolling.

[6starpool]

I don't disagree with women not being at these events, and if they just weren't there without me having heard of it, I really doubt I would even have noticed. It seems to me though that these decisions are taken by the same people/organisations who were happy to have these women do the whole dolly bird thing not that long ago, so it seems more of a reaction to pressure than anything.

I don't know how to fix the world and the gender prejudices/stereotypes that exist, but this seems like a token thing rather than something borne out of genuine desire for change. Will the Tour de France do similar? Probably not because they are French, but those girls aren't dressed in a provocative manner, but in terms of the 'men winning, girls looking nice' terms it is up there too.

I don't know really, about any of it.

SPOILER

[Lazare]

HJ's position may sound extreme, and his argument style may seem arrogant but I think he's correct.

I want my daughters to come of age in a society devoid of mysoginy, a mature truly equal society. We're lying to ourselves if we believe that exists now.

I want them to aspire to be doctors, professionals or artists.

I'd rather a world where wank fodder for greasy fat darts fans until their looks fade wasn't a career option for them.

[Raoul Duke III]

ah men talking about what women should and shouldn't do....just like the abortion debate tbf.

[Raoul Duke III]

Happened to flick onto that last week on Eurosport. Gotta be the nut worst sport.

Golf says hello (although clearly not a sport tbf)

[Lazare]

Vintage bbv though it has to be said. Just missing Lloyd.

[Guest]

HJ's position may sound extreme, and his argument style may seem arrogant but I think he's correct.

I want my daughters to come of age in a society devoid of mysoginy, a mature truly equal society. We're lying to ourselves if we believe that exists now.

I want them to aspire to be doctors, professionals or artists.

I'd rather a world where wank fodder for greasy fat darts fans until their looks fade wasn't a career option for them.

Do they not already live in a world where they can aspire to be doctors and professionals or artists? We’ve been living in that world for quite some time????

[Raoul Duke III]

Do they not already live in a world where they can aspire to be doctors and professionals or artists? We’ve been living in that world for quite some time????

Lazare is an unconscious mysogynist!

The filthy swine. Always knew there was something dodgy about that fella.

[Trippie]

Its been two years of back and forth trips and hassle but just found out that the USA has decided im worthy of being a permanent resident going forward. On a much sadder level I lost my favourite whistle tonight after work.

[jack90210]

HJ's position may sound extreme, and his argument style may seem arrogant but I think he's correct.

I want my daughters to come of age in a society devoid of mysoginy, a mature truly equal society. We're lying to ourselves if we believe that exists now.

I want them to aspire to be doctors, professionals or artists.

I'd rather a world where wank fodder for greasy fat darts fans until their looks fade wasn't a career option for them.

What if they don't want to do what you designate as acceptable? Have you ever considered some women (and some men) enjoy been desired, envied etc. why shouldn't they? Who are we to judge. The women whose jobs have been taken would have loved the lifestyle and opportunities the job presented them.

As was hinted at before, feminism appears to be making women less liberated rather than more liberated. You can't wear this, you can't work as that.

[6starpool]

HJ's position may sound extreme, and his argument style may seem arrogant but I think he's correct.

I want my daughters to come of age in a society devoid of mysoginy, a mature truly equal society. We're lying to ourselves if we believe that exists now.

I want them to aspire to be doctors, professionals or artists.

I'd rather a world where wank fodder for greasy fat darts fans until their looks fade wasn't a career option for them.

Admirable on the face of it, but removing the option of doing something is never that progressive imo. Women aren't expected to be housewives and give up careers now when they have children, but some want to and choose to.

Who are you to say that your kids can't be one of those models if they want to? Would prefer if they didn't? Sure. Can't? That's not your decision imo.

[jack90210]

Is there anyone less liberal than liberals?

[Lazare]

Do they not already live in a world where they can aspire to be doctors and professionals or artists? We’ve been living in that world for quite some time????

I'll phrase it this way.

I want them to aspire to be doctors, professionals or artists and find the path to that and their experience when they get there the same as if they were male.

That's not currently the case.

[balfejohn]

Its been two years of back and forth trips and hassle but just found out that the USA has decided im worthy of being a permanent resident going forward. On a much sadder level I lost my favourite whistle tonight after work.

That’s a big blow

[Guest]

I'll phrase it this way.

I want them to aspire to be doctors, professionals or artists and find the path to that and their experience when they get there the same as if they were male.

That's not currently the case.

Depends on the industry. There’s definitely issue with equal pay for equal work that need to be sorted on some places,thought that BBC China editors testimony today was very good
But I’d be pretty much aligned with Jordan Peterson re the gender pay gap. Equal pay for equal work I’m on board but hopefully gender studies graduates are still getting paid a pittance in 20 Years

[Jibzzzz]

No notifications from HQ these days, whats up?

[Lazare]

Admirable on the face of it, but removing the option of doing something is never that progressive imo. Women aren't expected to be housewives and give up careers now when they have children, but some want to and choose to.

Who are you to say that your kids can't be one of those models if they want to? Would prefer if they didn't? Sure. Can't? That's not your decision imo.

HJ made a really good point upthread. This isn't about denying opportunities to individual women or girls. This is a macro level argument, and it is progressive.

It takes a generation to change societal norms, and it starts with calling out stuff like this. It's similar to how casual racism was acceptable in the 70s, on TV, in movies etc but slowly got eradicated. It's not gone for sure, but it's not acceptable generally.

There were similar protestations then, but the shift away from it was correct, and progressive.

[Lazare]

What if they don't want to do what you designate as acceptable? Have you ever considered some women (and some men) enjoy been desired, envied etc. why shouldn't they? Who are we to judge. The women whose jobs have been taken would have loved the lifestyle and opportunities the job presented them.

As was hinted at before, feminism appears to be making women less liberated rather than more liberated. You can't wear this, you can't work as that.

Good to hear you're in favour of liberating women to make choices.

Oh wait.

[The Istanbul]

I'll phrase it this way.

I want them to aspire to be doctors, professionals or artists and find the path to that and their experience when they get there the same as if they were male.

That's not currently the case.

I call horseshit on this Laz: women today have the same breadth of choices open to them as men. To think differently reflects on you not the reality-you can encourage/rear your girls to be anything they want to be. I have two and they've always thought they could rule the world from a young age (a bit like their mother ).

[Lazare]

I call horseshit on this Laz: women today have the same breadth of choices open to them as men. To think differently reflects on you not the reality-you can encourage/rear your girls to be anything they want to be. I have two and they've always thought they could rule the world from a young age (a bit like their mother ).

Of course girls have the same breadth of choices as boys, and in your and my anecdotal cases our daughters will maximise them.

My argument is about society as a whole though, and how societal pressures are different for boys and girls.

Girls are subtely discouraged from certain paths, industry, politics, finance etc, from a young age, not because of ability but because we still live in a patriarchal society. Every little small step like repealing the 8th, removing dolly birds from lout sports etc helps to move society progressively away from that, and helps to remove the subtle discouragement.

Also, while women may have the same choices, career wise, they certainly don't have the same experiences once they get there.

[Charlie Sheen]

I think most of us can agree we can make the world better for women and minorities and work towards giving everyone an equal shot at succeeding and moving up the ladder into sought after positions.

I can understand the removing of the models/cheerleaders from the darts/football etc on one hand but then wonder if it's the best way to stop it?
They get some ridiculously abusive things said to them and I'm all for stamping it out but surely you have to change how the people who abuse them think and not just remove one of the times they can abuse someone.

I'm just wondering what the end game is, is it to remove sex appeal from everything we watch and consume?

[Hectorjelly]

Why should it not exsist

Should male model also not exsist

What other jobs should not exist under this flag of what I had presumed to be subtle trolling.

This isn't an argument to ban models, female or otherwise.

[Hectorjelly]

Admirable on the face of it, but removing the option of doing something is never that progressive imo. .

Jack already made this point. Anytime you make a point Jack would agree with you might want to have a think about it.

Child labour
Racial abuse
Child abuse
Polluting rivers
Violence
Incitement to violence

etc etc

[Closed_Account]

HJ's position may sound extreme, and his argument style may seem arrogant but I think he's correct.

I want my daughters to come of age in a society devoid of mysoginy, a mature truly equal society. We're lying to ourselves if we believe that exists now.

I want them to aspire to be doctors, professionals or artists.

I'd rather a world where wank fodder for greasy fat darts fans until their looks fade wasn't a career option for them.

Ah fucking hell lads. Come on.

I have a daughter and women can be whatever the hell they want to be. That ship has sailed and sailed a long time ago. The great fucking evil that is this alleged patriarchal society is utter nonsense. Women have the upper hand in many, many different ways, some of which I sincerely hope you as a man never have to endure and like everyone, in the broad sense of things want equality, which for the vast % they have, apart from situations that are advantageous to them. Just like the rest of the world. Which is fair enough.

[Closed_Account]

This isn't an argument to ban models, female or otherwise.

It is close to precisely the same thing. Handsome people, of every gender are used to showcase various things, clothes, events whatever. Attractive people help sell an idea or a product. So what.

[Mellor]

Thanks very much. That's not totally horrific as a jumping off point anyway. I think five would be the number needed in this case too.

Out of curiosity, what's the reason for these? Peace of mind of regulatory?

Yes, I suppose he had a good point in that its easy to ascribe our own thinking onto childrens, but that said I don't think its worth my energy looking up studies to show the importance of gender in role models.

Gender is hugely important in role models. We perceive certain roles in a certain way due to a subconscious gender bias. Some of those bias' are of course completely rational.

HJ's position may sound extreme, and his argument style may seem arrogant but I think he's correct.

I want my daughters to come of age in a society devoid of mysoginy, a mature truly equal society. We're lying to ourselves if we believe that exists now.

A 100% equal society isn't possible. Simple down to biology. Men are more suited to better roles than women.

So, even in an near-utopian future, either unemployment is higher for women, or we create/maintain the idea that certain roles are more suited for women.

This isn't an argument to ban models, female or otherwise.

I'm not an F1 fan, so I might be missing the nuances of the GridGirl situation. But that's exactly what I thought they were. In what way are they not just models doing trivial tasks because they are good looking?
I didn't even realize where a thing until they were banned. So maybe I'm missing something in that regard.

[careca]

Enjoyed that discussion.

Except hitch wanting to ban the rose of tralee. Step away hitch or you won't know what hit you .

[Solksjaer!]

The 1950s rang and have asked us to kindly return Lazare.

Bigger fish to fry for our kids (male and female) than this tired old argument Cant see the woods for the trees. .

[jack90210]

Some posters on here not far off suggesting we dress women in a burka type outfit so everyone looks the same - im sure the argument would be the unattractive ones will have a harder time of it than the attractive ones (studies have shown this is true).

[jack90210]

Good to hear you're in favour of liberating women to make choices.

Oh wait.

If you are referring to abortion, abortions isn’t liberal as it gives one person a choice at the expense of another.

[Mellor]

If you are referring to abortion, abortions isn’t liberal as it gives one person a choice at the expense of another.

Are you referring to the undeveloped embryo as a person.
Or suggesting the father doesn't have a choice or say in the matter.
Both are wrong obviously, just wondering what the angle is today.

[jack90210]

Are you referring to the undeveloped embryo as a person.
Or suggesting the father doesn't have a choice or say in the matter.
Both are wrong obviously, just wondering what the angle is today.

Let’s not derail the anti woman debate going on above for now.

[Emmet]

Jack, do you realise that liberal does not mean leftist? When American republicans use Liberal as a slur they quite simply mean 'anyone that is not a republican'. Liberal values are not collectivist leftist values. The use of Liberal when you are talking about explicitly illiberal people is very odd.

[6starpool]

Jack already made this point. Anytime you make a point Jack would agree with you might want to have a think about it.

Child labour
Racial abuse
Child abuse
Polluting rivers
Violence
Incitement to violence

etc etc

Those things aren't even close to equivalent. Likening models who choose to do something to child abuse? Really?

Just because Jack thinks something doesn't automatically make it wrong, even if I do disagree with him on a lot of things.

[MrsFlushdraw]

HJ's position may sound extreme, and his argument style may seem arrogant but I think he's correct.

I want my daughters to come of age in a society devoid of mysoginy, a mature truly equal society. We're lying to ourselves if we believe that exists now.

I want them to aspire to be doctors, professionals or artists.

I'd rather a world where wank fodder for greasy fat darts fans until their looks fade wasn't a career option for them.

Our eldest who just turned 17 is planning to go into Medicine, cardiology to be exact. She knows she might have to get a wee job while she studied, what she said to me was...

"I heard you can make a fortune working a few evenings at the White Palace, now that would be a decent way to make some €€€"

Now, the White Palace is a Gentlemans Club in St Julian's. both men and woman can go into this club, despite the name. She wants to be one of the girls who would be scantily clad and dancing.

How do I feel about it? I don't know. But I DO KNOW, it is her choice, and if she doesn't feel she is lowering herself to make some money, then fair play to her. She said she would rather that than working in Burger King frying pattys to make a pittance.

She had been discussing these things with her female friends, and this was the logic. Less hours for much more money and not coming home stinking of fat.

[Raoul Duke III]

Jack, do you realise that liberal does not mean leftist? When American republicans use Liberal as a slur they quite simply mean 'anyone that is not a republican'. Liberal values are not collectivist leftist values. The use of Liberal when you are talking about explicitly illiberal people is very odd.

Just say Progressive instead. Everyone likes progress, right?

[Keane]

Out of curiosity, what's the reason for these? Peace of mind of regulatory?

Apparently places with more than two floors here have to have fire corridors between the top floor and the exit, which means fire doors along the route to the front door.

The place we are looking at doesn't have them so I'm trying to figure out just how much they cost. From a resale pov as much as anything.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[Lazare]

The 1950s rang and have asked us to kindly return Lazare.

Bigger fish to fry for our kids (male and female) than this tired old argument Cant see the woods for the trees. .

Ah Willie, don't feel so threatened. You'll be ok.

[eoghan104]

HJ, this would be a fairly liberal/lefty forum on the whole correct? The vast majority disagree with you completely on the above topic where you are deciding what way women should act and think.

Do you ever for a second look at the arguments presented to you? Ever wonder if maybe you might be wrong?

It just seems that once you have decided on something then there is no moving and everyone else is an idiot. Makes you come across as an arrogant prick.

[Solksjaer!]

HJ, this would be a fairly liberal/lefty forum on the whole correct? The vast majority disagree with you completely on the above topic where you are deciding what way women should act and think.

Do you ever for a second look at the arguments presented to you? Ever wonder if maybe you might be wrong?

It just seems that once you have decided on something then there is no moving and everyone else is an idiot. Makes you come across as an arrogant prick.

In his defence. Most of us are like that. If you think otherwise you are wrong.

Conor I don't feel threatened. Maybe if I were younger I might be. Now its all about the next generation for me.

[Lazare]

This argument could easily be transposed back a few decades with black minstrels and Gollywog toys substituted for dolly birds.

You had people like Jack arguing about the denial of employment opportunities for the poor negroes. You had rational people like Dom arguing that it's all just harmless fun with nobody getting hurt. You had people who feel threatened when the mirror is put up to them and lash out calling the opponents of it hysterical.

Then you have people like Eoghan who call the lone wolf wrong because his opinion is a minority opinion.

Progressive societal changes always follow this path.

You can go back decades further and transpose it to carnival freak shows, women's suffrage, black emancipation etc etc

[SatNav]

How do I feel about it? I don't know. But I DO KNOW, it is her choice, and if she doesn't feel she is lowering herself to make some money, then fair play to her. She said she would rather that than working in Burger King frying pattys to make a pittance.

She had been discussing these things with her female friends, and this was the logic. Less hours for much more money and not coming home stinking of fat.

Oi don't be dissing the burger flipping.

http://www.irishpokerboards.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1055611&postcount=24104

[eoghan104]

This argument could easily be transposed back a few decades with black minstrels and Gollywog toys substituted for dolly birds.

This is such a horrendous comparison similar to HJ's Child Labour one.

The Black minstrels were white people imitating black people in order to mock them. That was inherently racist.

Women who are proud of their looks getting well paid to show them off is not hurting or offending anyone.

Are you a prude? Is sex something that should be hidden and shunned?

Basically I have a problem with people like you and HJ trying to define how people should feel. If women want to be models (and there is no distinction here, the Pit Girls/Darts girls are models.) then what gives you the right to decide it is wrong?

I assume you are pro-choice? Women should be able to choose what they do with their bodies? Why is this different?

It is baffling.

[poprock]

Our eldest who just turned 17 is planning to go into Medicine, cardiology to be exact. She knows she might have to get a wee job while she studied, what she said to me was...

"I heard you can make a fortune working a few evenings at the White Palace, now that would be a decent way to make some €€€"

Now, the White Palace is a Gentlemans Club in St Julian's. both men and woman can go into this club, despite the name. She wants to be one of the girls who would be scantily clad and dancing.

How do I feel about it? I don't know. But I DO KNOW, it is her choice, and if she doesn't feel she is lowering herself to make some money, then fair play to her. She said she would rather that than working in Burger King frying pattys to make a pittance.

She had been discussing these things with her female friends, and this was the logic. Less hours for much more money and not coming home stinking of fat.

SPOILER

https://media.giphy.com/media/IE4my1dfCBfMc/giphy.gif

[MrsFlushdraw]

Oi don't be dissing the burger flipping.


http://www.irishpokerboards.com/foru...ostcount=24104

Not the best option for my Vegetarian daughter really lol