Bad Beat/Moaning/Venting - pray for Lazare

[LuckyLloyd]

So can someone explain in simple terms what that Hillsborough judgment means? I've no idea about the whole situation and I'm sick of seeing drool on Facebook etc. It sounds like it wasn't any of the fans fault and they were killed, but how? What actually happened that day?

Watch the video at the top of this article, 12 mins. Simple easy to follow summary of events.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-disaster-inquest-jury-returns-verdict-live-updates

[Strewelpeter]

I can kind of understand people competing in a sport slipping into modes of thinking that allows them to find self justification for taking PED's but this is just batshit crazy


Belgian cyclo-cross rider gets six-year ban for motorised bike
Femke van den Driessche used hidden motor in seat tube

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[KevIRL]

Will there be a second election in 2016 now 6/5 on PP. Think it got as high as 7/1 a few weeks back

[Dice75]

So Dice is a troll now?

No 100% not. Especially on something like that.

I vividly remember watching it live on RTE and the aftermath but I suppose I haven't really followed it in any detail with regards to the campaign in the last 27 years.

I'd mistakenly assumed the campaign was mainly focused on the police claims of drunken hoards / smashing down of gates / attacking & stifling police efforts / pilfering etc. I guess the media had put the ticketless fans in my mind & it hadn't been corrected.

[LuckyLloyd]

Irish Rail workers getting antsy:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/irish-rail-staff-consider-strike-action-as-unions-seeking-pay-increases-of-25pc-34662272.html

Dublin Bus Drivers are rumoured to be dissatisfied aswell. Maybe the LUAS drivers are banking on everyone being out within a couple of weeks?

[6starpool]

Irish Rail workers getting antsy:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/irish-rail-staff-consider-strike-action-as-unions-seeking-pay-increases-of-25pc-34662272.html

Dublin Bus Drivers are rumoured to be dissatisfied aswell. Maybe the LUAS drivers are banking on everyone being out within a couple of weeks?

Should fucking burn down the unions. These disputes are so far devoid of any of the principles on which the unions were founded it is ridiculous.

[The Situation]

So Dice is a troll now?



Dude, how can it not be understood how horrific the coverage of those deaths was. Even to me that's super obvious. And on the day it was judged by a court, after a huge wait, to be unlawful.

Think my interest in it is around the general British elite treatment of poor people. It's always revolves around the idea they are too simple to understand basic things - like queueing instructions - as if they're subhuman. You see this in the current 'welfare state' argument. That poor people are scroungers living of the excellent upper class.

Six of the current UK cabinet all went to the same primary school. I think. Like the same kiddie school, not even uni. UK is so ridic class divided. Coverage of this event just epitomised that.

It didn't help the victims cause that the absolutely shameful acts of their fellow fans a few years before in Heysel had them tagged as hooligans in people's eyes, that was a massive national embarrassment to have their clubs banned from Europe for years. When Hillsborough occurred it was thus easier for certain media and those involved to sway the rhetoric down the "they're only thugs" route, as this would have been the first conclusion in a lot of peoples minds.

[Solskjaer]

The ref in this game must be an exUFC ref.

[Lazare]

Got a laugh the other evening hearing SIPTU's Willie No-one on six one saying one of the Luas drivers' demands was a red line issue.

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[Strewelpeter]

An election fought purely on water charges would be interesting... The intellectual arguments against IW and the current charges amount to Phil Hogan was arrogant in the way he started it and errrm we don't like Dennis O'Brien.

The FF position is completely illogical parish pumpery of the stupidest kind. They seem to want an election on it though

[6starpool]

The ref in this game must be an exUFC ref.

He reffed the LFC/Dortmund second leg as well. He lets play flow and did very well that night and tonight as well imo. I wish there were more refs like him.

[6starpool]

Can imagine Lloyd getting public transport into work feeling an erotic thrill that he's paying an extra 20% on the fare in order that the six-week-trained-driver is getting paid €30k more than his highly trained self.

Ah I'd imagine Lloyd gets paid at least as much as a transport driving person, although I do like the gist of your post.

[Strewelpeter]

It didn't help the victims cause that the absolutely shameful acts of their fellow fans a few years before in Heysel had them tagged as hooligans in people's eyes, that was a massive national embarrassment to have their clubs banned from Europe for years. When Hillsborough occurred it was thus easier for certain media and those involved to sway the rhetoric down the "they're only thugs" route, as this would have been the first conclusion in a lot of peoples minds.

It would be nice to think that now that this has been dealt with Liverpool fans and the club can finally get around to commemorating Heysel with a similar intensity to the way they do Hillsborough.

[KevIRL]

Should fucking burn down the unions. These disputes are so far devoid of any of the principles on which the unions were founded it is ridiculous.

Easy know Lloyd is the shop steward here at ipb

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[LuckyLloyd]

Can imagine Lloyd getting public transport into work feeling an erotic thrill that he's paying an extra 20% on the fare in order that the six-week-trained-driver is getting paid €30k more than his highly trained self.

My employer pays for my travel and I can work from home so...

[6starpool]

It would be nice to think that now that this has been dealt with Liverpool fans and the club can finally get around to commemorating Heysel with a similar intensity to the way they do Hillsborough.

I had a different post written, but to just have a more level headed response, have a read of this article. Written in 2013 but still relevant now.

http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2013/05/what-about-justice-for-heysel/

[LuckyLloyd]

An election fought purely on water charges would be interesting... The intellectual arguments against IW and the current charges amount to Phil Hogan was arrogant in the way he started it and errrm we don't like Dennis O'Brien.

The FF position is completely illogical parish pumpery of the stupidest kind. They seem to want an election on it though

A majority of TDs elected on the 26th February were for the abolition of Irish Water. If you can step out of the pro IW / FG bubble that is this thread for two seconds, maybe you'd conclude that such a strategy would be correct from a seat garnering perspective?

[Dice75]

@Dice the smiley face was intended to suggest that I, of course don't think that. Apols if that wasn't clear.

I'll leave the trolling to the pro's

[Shashka]

Car alarms keep going off outside :-(

[Raoul Duke III]

Didn't get to find out ultimately who was afraid of Virginia Woolf. Got to the interval, took one sip of my G&T, and turned on my phone to find several frantic messages. Wife had cut herself to the bone while doing the washing-up and got herself carted off to Beaumont bleeding profusely while the neighbour (Zuut's m8) came in to mind the kids. All grand in the end, couple of stitches and she'll be home soon. Kids seem totally unfussed.

Moral of the story: keep your phone off until the end of the show.

[Raoul Duke III]

A majority of TDs elected on the 26th February were for the abolition of Irish Water. If you can step out of the pro IW / FG bubble that is this thread for two seconds, maybe you'd conclude that such a strategy would be correct from a seat garnering perspective?

No room for principles in politics?

[Emmet]

A majority of TDs elected on the 26th February were for the abolition of Irish Water. If you can step out of the pro IW / FG bubble that is this thread for two seconds, maybe you'd conclude that such a strategy would be correct from a seat garnering perspective?

Why don't they abolish it then?

[LuckyLloyd]

Why don't they abolish it then?

I don't know. Just as I don't know why FF / FG can't get a deal done. The whole thing is beyond me.

[LuckyLloyd]

No room for principles in politics?

When talking about politics I can maintain a distinction between what I want to happen and what I think will happen. Just as what someone should do in terms of ethics / morals is different than what they should do in terms of political expediency. Strewelpeter and some others on here struggle with such distinctions...

[Shashka]

Irish water and the idea of charges for water are two wholly different things. Irish water is messy whatever your thoughts for charges etc.
Because you wish to abolish Irish water does not mean you are against water charges outright. I am against them personally with due respect to all other opinions. But if you are not wholly outright against them you might still see Irish water is disorganized and a bit of a disaster. Some TD's might not like Irish water simply for that fact alone rather than any ideology.
Hello by the way. I am new.

[bp_me]

Why don't they abolish it then?

Because FG and FF wont allow the debate and following vote apparently (according to the SF speaker on the last word earlier)

[oleras]

The politicians are laughing at us behind closed doors.

They have the majority of people concerned again about 400/year and no talk about the 4000/year in USC charges.

They actually have people funking now for a 5 year rather than 3 year kick the can down the road, they cant even make a proper decision on IW it seems.

Shower of self serving cunts.

[Emmet]

I don't know. Just as I don't know why FF / FG can't get a deal done. The whole thing is beyond me.

Well, possibly because FG don't want to abolish IW.

If FF really do, they have the opportunity to do so given that majority that you speak of.

But nobody's even suggested that once. Why not?

Is it perhaps because it's just a tad disingenuous to suggest that the majority of TDs elected were anti charges?

[Emmet]

Because FG and FF wont allow the debate and following vote apparently (according to the SF speaker on the last word earlier)

No debate necessary. Martin was nominated for Taoiseach.

All of the Antis could have voted for him, which would have necessitated him attempting to form a cabinet.

They didn't do that though. Only FF voted for him...

[Emmet]

Irish water and the idea of charges for water are two wholly different things. Irish water is messy whatever your thoughts for charges etc.
Because you wish to abolish Irish water does not mean you are against water charges outright. I am against them personally with due respect to all other opinions. But if you are not wholly outright against them you might still see Irish water is disorganized and a bit of a disaster. Some TD's might not like Irish water simply for that fact alone rather than any ideology.
Hello by the way. I am new.

Welcome!

There is little doubt that IW, just like each and every State and Semi-State body that's ever been set up is bloated, was hamfisted in, has conflict of interests everywhere, has efficiency issues to beat the band, is hamstrung by legislation that didn't take into account X,Y and Z that a private implementation would have done.

But it is in existence, it is what we have, and it is what we have to improve.

[LuckyLloyd]

Well, possibly because FG don't want to abolish IW.

If FF really do, they have the opportunity to do so given that majority that you speak of.

But nobody's even suggested that once. Why not?

Is it perhaps because it's just a tad disingenuous to suggest that the majority of TDs elected were anti charges?

It's not the only issue that concerns government formation. You know this. You also know anti IW legislation will pass in this Dail.

[Emmet]

It's not the only issue that concerns government formation. You know this. You also know anti IW legislation will pass in this Dail.

Strange. I'd have assumed that if a majority of TDs were so interested in abolishing something that they might, you know, do something about it when the chance was staring them in the face...

Is that not reasonable?

[Shashka]

Welcome!

There is little doubt that IW, just like each and every State and Semi-State body that's ever been set up is bloated, was hamfisted in, has conflict of interests everywhere, has efficiency issues to beat the band, is hamstrung by legislation that didn't take into account X,Y and Z that a private implementation would have done.

But it is in existence, it is what we have, and it is what we have to improve.

Thank you.

[Emmet]

Everything he touches turns to gold.

[Strewelpeter]

Why don't they abolish it then?

This

[NewApproach]

Re: the Sun headlines, is the hatred in Merseyside towards the Sun based on the premise that they made up the story, or simply that it was distasteful for the Sun to run a story which they had every reason to believe to be true, albeit unpalatable to readers?

[Shashka]

Strange. I'd have assumed that if a majority of TDs were so interested in abolishing something that they might, you know, do something about it when the chance was staring them in the face...

Is that not reasonable?

They are interested in using the topic to try and stop the opposition forming a gov or an alliance with other parties.

FF want to stop FG forming a govt. They are using this issue to do so.

In reality if Irish water was providing a consistent good service across the country ( domestic water is quite bad in some places I hear) and it was transparent how it was run eventually people would accept it.

[Raoul Duke III]

The politicians are laughing at us behind closed doors.

They have the majority of people concerned again about 400/year and no talk about the 4000/year in USC charges.

They actually have people funking now for a 5 year rather than 3 year kick the can down the road, they cant even make a proper decision on IW it seems.

Shower of self serving cunts.

USC is a great tax, I won't hear a word against it. The real problem with our income tax system is that it's too progressive - low to middle earners pay fuck all. (try putting in low\middle income salaries into French\German\Swedish tax calculators and see how much more they pay).

Try getting elected with that message.

[Strewelpeter]

I had a different post written, but to just have a more level headed response, have a read of this article. Written in 2013 but still relevant now.

http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2013/0...ce-for-heysel/

Blame being attributed to a lot of different factors there, the nearest they come to the culture in the club at the time is the staggering line

Those stampedes might have been considered standard terrace fare at the time, a token act of territorialism and intimidation

Interesting but it does nothing to answer the hope I expressed for the future.

[Raoul Duke III]

Re: the Sun headlines, is the hatred in Merseyside towards the Sun based on the premise that they made up the story, or simply that it was distasteful for the Sun to run a story which they had every reason to believe to be true, albeit unpalatable to readers?

Any paper that runs stories about nags nut Noel can't be all bad.

[Strewelpeter]

FF want to stop FG forming a govt. They are using this issue to do so.

I think the only thing on FF's agenda is positioning themselves to get more seats in the next election.

[Flushdraw]

Hi Peaceandfire

[Emmet]

They are interested in using the topic to try and stop the opposition forming a gov or an alliance with other parties.

FF want to stop FG forming a govt. They are using this issue to do so.

In reality if Irish water was providing a consistent good service across the country ( domestic water is quite bad in some places I hear) and it was transparent how it was run eventually people would accept it.

FG are irrelevant though if as Lloyd states, a majority of elected TDs were for the abolition of Irish Water.

FF put forward Martin for Taoiseach. SF, IA, Greens, SD, PBP/AAA could have voted him in easily with the majority as an "Anti Charges Taoiseach".

Yet they didn't do that...

The mandate against water charges that that majority apparently got, was not strong enough to bind them together when given an obvious opportunity to act upon it!

The 32nd Dáil could have been 6 weeks long, with the "Lunatic Fringe - Anti-Water-Charges Grand Coalition" ultimately unable to agree on a single thing after they'd abolished IW, and we would be going to the polls again.

But, that didn't happen, nor has it ever looked in the slightest bit likely!

[Shashka]

Re: the Sun headlines, is the hatred in Merseyside towards the Sun based on the premise that they made up the story, or simply that it was distasteful for the Sun to run a story which they had every reason to believe to be true, albeit unpalatable to readers?

I suspect the sun's credibility has been shot over the years. But generally people feel the way they do for emotive reasons rather than clearly explainable ones. Would they have minded it was not true?

[Shashka]

Hi Peaceandfire

Hello ! Oh er erm ..nothing to see here!

Hi ya!

[Teddie]

An election fought purely on water charges would be interesting... The intellectual arguments against IW and the current charges amount to Phil Hogan was arrogant in the way he started it and errrm we don't like Dennis O'Brien.

The FF position is completely illogical parish pumpery of the stupidest kind. They seem to want an election on it though

FF popularity has been steadily rising the last few weeks/months and they have now overtaken FG in the polls. Irish water is hated by a significant number of people. Enda Kenny is an idiot who will is largely hated and another 4 weeks on the campaign with more deluded nonsense spewing fourth from his mouth will give FG another big dent in their popularity. Sabbataging the talks over Irish Water and going to the polls now for FF is the smartest thing they can do. Give it another 6 months and FG might actually get rid of Enda and then their in a big fight.

[dobby]

Cheers for the replies re Hillsborough. Interesting stuff that I've never read anything about before because, well without sounding too cold hearted, why would I? Not the club I support. But kudos to the families for keeping the fight going. Don't think I want to watch those videos/documentaries after Kayroos description so will stick with the articles.

[Raoul Duke III]

Adrenaline wearing off now.

[6starpool]

Hi Peaceandfire

I'm not sure why it's necessary, Kev decided to show mercy and unban later that night.

[Shashka]

FG are irrelevant though if as Lloyd states, a majority of elected TDs were for the abolition of Irish Water.

FF put forward Martin for Taoiseach. SF, IA, Greens, SD, PBP/AAA could have voted him in easily with the majority as an "Anti Charges Taoiseach".

Yet they didn't do that...

The mandate against water charges that that majority apparently got, was not strong enough to bind them together when given an obvious opportunity to act upon it!

The 32nd Dáil could have been 6 weeks long, with the "Lunatic Fringe - Anti-Water-Charges Grand Coalition" ultimately unable to agree on a single thing after they'd abolished IW, and we would be going to the polls again.

But, that didn't happen, nor has it ever looked in the slightest bit likely!

That's true.

I think it will come down to their working relationships with each other (between parties and independents) rather than ideologies. Those who can't work together won't be in govt.

It's scary that no one seems to be able to form a govt. Nor seems to know what it might look like. It's a bit embarrassing actually.

[Shashka]

I'm not sure why it's necessary, Kev decided to show mercy and unban later that night.

He is a kind man.

[Raoul Duke III]

FF popularity has been steadily rising the last few weeks/months and they have now overtaken FG in the polls. Irish water is hated by a significant number of people. Enda Kenny is an idiot who will is largely hated and another 4 weeks on the campaign with more deluded nonsense spewing fourth from his mouth will give FG another big dent in their popularity. Sabbataging the talks over Irish Water and going to the polls now for FF is the smartest thing they can do. Give it another 6 months and FG might actually get rid of Enda and then their in a big fight.

Enda is actually already gone. He's merely providing political cover for Ireland's first openly () gay Taoiseach.

[Shashka]

Enda is actually already gone.

His wife is a marketing pr genius though.

[Shashka]

She should work for the Tourist board!

[Teddie]

Enda is actually already gone. He's merely providing political cover for Ireland's first openly () gay Taoiseach.

If another election is called soon will he definitely step aside or be pushed? One of them has to happen but it won't leave FG with a huge amount of time.

[JamieCarra]

Re: the Sun headlines, is the hatred in Merseyside towards the Sun based on the premise that they made up the story, or simply that it was distasteful for the Sun to run a story which they had every reason to believe to be true, albeit unpalatable to readers?

Several other newspapers had similar reports around the same time but the others mostly reported it as "police sources say that..." as opposed to stating the allegations as fact. The others also apologised for the stories fairly quickly afterwards.