Bad Beat/Moaning/Venting - pray for Lazare

[Raoul Duke III]

You are doing a bad of basing an argument on pedantry tbf.

Not really. I'm smacking Laz around like a red-headed stepchild and exposing intolerance disguised as liberalism.

A good evening's work I would say.

[Raoul Duke III]

I think practicing Irish catholics should be ashamed, of their catholicism, not their christianity, or their faith. Does that clear it up?

No. Their catholicism defines their christianity and their faith. They are one and the same.

You're digging yourself into a bigger hole. I suggest opening some booze and settling in for an evening of calling me a bollix.

[Tar.Aldarion]

I mean I guess Lazare could say he meant people should be ashamed of supporting the catholic church, not of being catholic, which are not the same thing. You don't have to support the church to be catholic.

[darwinatemyhamster]

.



You're going to find it hard to spin this one.

Lazare says people going to church 'should be ashamed of themselves'.

Then says 'I never said people should be ashamed of their faith in god or their christianity'.

If this was a court, the case would be closed. Open and shut but fire away.

Now that you have the quotes at hand you should read them again.

[darwinatemyhamster]

I mean I guess Lazare could say he meant people should be ashamed of supporting the catholic church, not of being catholic, which are not the same thing. You don't have to support the church to be catholic.

That's how I read it anyway. Raoul has an awful habit of declaring himself a winner in arguments, it doesn't work like that!

[Denny Crane]

Life is far more relaxing with read receipts switched off.

[Raoul Duke III]

I mean I guess Lazare could say he meant people should be ashamed of supporting the catholic church, not of being catholic, which are not the same thing. You don't have to support the church to be catholic.

Ah, I see.

So if I wandered into mass this morning, I should be ashamed of myself for being a practicing Catholic but not for being a christian?

Glad we cleared that up. Makes complete sense when you think about it.

[Lazare]

Ah, I see.

So if I wandered into mass this morning, I should be ashamed of myself for being a practicing Catholic but not for being a christian?

Glad we cleared that up. Makes complete sense when you think about it.

As I said, a true christian, true to the accepted teachings of Christ would not wander into mass this morning.

The catholic church are not christian, in fact, ironically it seems the only people acting truly 'christian' are atheists. Especially with regard to the horror of Tuam.

[Morihei]

As I said, a true christian, true to the accepted teachings of Christ would not wander into mass this morning.

Not without his kilt and sporran anyway.

[The Istanbul]

I'm a tool for suggesting that people should be ashamed of praising and supporting the catholic church?

After what those cunts did?

To children, to women?

And this the tip of the iceberg.

Go and fuck yourself.

Absolute tool

[Lazare]

Absolute tool

Not sure if serious.

[Lazare]

Sigur Ros providing the perfect antidote to the weekend's lava flow of anger tbh. That and booze.

[Lazare]

Categorising people whose views you disagree with as stupid people who should be ashamed of themselves is not liberal though. If you find yourself in that position (like Lazare), you are actually acting more like a reactionary than a liberal.

Given I stated that I consider this to be an Irish holocaust, whether you agree or not with me is irrelevant, that's how I feel. Also given that I feel it's not possible to Godwin an argument with this issue, do you think young Germans who denounce older Germans sympathetic to the Reich are reactionary, or liberal?

[Strewelpeter]

'The nazis :a warning from history' been given a spin on the Beeb the past few weeks,some documentary.
Recommended viewing especially for people who can't help making really silly Hitler-Trump comparisons.he's not in this doc lads

Really If you don't see the similarties from the '23 to '33 period you are trying not to see it.

[Raoul Duke III]

Given I stated that I consider this to be an Irish holocaust, whether you agree or not with me is irrelevant, that's how I feel. Also given that I feel it's not possible to Godwin an argument with this issue, do you think young Germans who denounce older Germans sympathetic to the Reich are reactionary, or liberal?

Why do you think it's a holocaust?

What camapign of genocide was launched, by whom and against who?

Don't conflate secret burial of people who died of natural causes with a systemic and deliberate annihilation. It's insulting to all parties.

[Guest]

Given I stated that I consider this to be an Irish holocaust, whether you agree or not with me is irrelevant, that's how I feel. Also given that I feel it's not possible to Godwin an argument with this issue, do you think young Germans who denounce older Germans sympathetic to the Reich are reactionary, or liberal?

i really like your cupcake avatar lazaare ....

and now for some music

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6_ikWlJu_0

[Morihei]

An oldie, but one of Charlie's best, from long before he sold out.

[Strewelpeter]

That's the bit I find ridiculous. 10 minutes of critical thought is all that's required to make a mockery of it.

Yea but you wouldn't mock or shame someone for having a mental illness. Religous belief is an acquired mental illness.
The vast majority of people who practice religon do it for other, more complex reasons than just belief.

To use an unfortunate metaphor there is a baby in the bathwather of the Irish church and we risk doing great harm by behaving ignorantly and intolerant ly towards them in their death throws.

Why do people not get it?

The church was the state.

You have got that backwards IMO and in any case both were and are We the people.

[Solksjaer!]

Why do you think it's a holocaust?

What camapign of genocide was launched, by whom and against who?

Don't conflate secret burial of people who died of natural causes with a systemic and deliberate annihilation. It's insulting to all parties.

Natural causes ? the stats say unlikely.

Anyway don't give the bastards any money or power .

Politics and religion eh ?

And of course Celtic (insert clip of yer man the junky Pats fan )

[Guest]

An oldie, but one of Charlie's best, from long before he sold out.

that's debatable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkZC7sqImaM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moyvaM9c4nM

[Strewelpeter]

whether you agree or not with me is irrelevant, that's how I feel.

And feelings are so much better than facts
Oh dear.
This, it seems, is how we ended up tith Trump

Take a step back and think about what you are saying.

One interesting thing about the Tuam story this weekens is that there is nothing new in it merely confirmation of what we have already known for a couple of years now... but all the feels buttons are being pressed hard again.

[Lazare]

Why do you think it's a holocaust?

What camapign of genocide was launched, by whom and against who?

Don't conflate secret burial of people who died of natural causes with a systemic and deliberate annihilation. It's insulting to all parties.

You've got your head in the sand.

Babies were taken from mothers. Mothers who were imprisoned because they were made pregnant, and put to work. Some babies were sold to American catholics, the remainder were maltreated, malnourished and allowed to die. For the crime of being a bastard.

When they died they were dumped. Into sewerage.

796 of them at ONE mother and baby home! A mortality rate far exceeding societal norms.

This happened in living memory, the catholic church did this.

Yeah, it's an insult to equate.

[Guest]

Well let's not let it happen again. Cuz ...love.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9bX5mzdihs

That's all.

[darwinatemyhamster]

Physiotherapist best first port of call for a trapped nerve?

[Lazare]

What sort of numbers do we need RD? In order to classify it as wanton genocide. Does it have to be millions before our moral compass is stretched?

[Denny Crane]

Really If you don't see the similarties from the '23 to '33 period you are trying not to see it.

Such as?

[Lazare]

Well let's not let it happen again. Cuz ...love.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9bX5mzdihs

That's all.

You posted a vid of her before, really great stuff

[RichieM]

Sure, believe what you like but to turn a blind eye every time a scandal breaks is nonsense. All those bones are from the famine, they wont find any recent bodies was the story till this week. Move paedophiles to new parishes, be grand.

Nor am I saying that they should be ignored. Members of the church and all others who covered this up should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the laws they broke.

My point is that it is outside of simply a church matter and was a wider societal issue - indeed the church had a larger say in the state at the time but to feel that people should be ashamed of their beliefs is a beyond the pale.

Those people should feel angry about what happened to their church, ashamed about how community leaders acted on their behalf or upset for the suffering that was caused.

Lazare from previous posts dislikes religion which is completely his call, for a lot of people it's important and the right to practice religion is a freedom that we as a civilised society recognise. To say that the church should be destroyed, disbanded and people forcced to renounce their faith is closer to medieval inquisition than enlightened thinking.

It is not liberal to attack others beliefs it is left wing extremism. Just as hypocritical and foolish as enforcing beliefs in others.

Fwiw I am massively in favour of separating church and state, schools, sports and everything else. Not because I am against the church but because it should be an option and a descision - the fact that no rational person will take that choice when it is not drummed into them from a young age and will lead to the fall of organised religion is great.

What is better is that it will be a consensus amongst our society not foisted upon us by those who feel the other side are a pack of ignorant fools. This attitude leads to trump, brexit and in Ireland's case a selection of idiots in govt covering all and somehow no bases.

[Lazare]

And feelings are so much better than facts
Oh dear.
This, it seems, is how we ended up tith Trump

Take a step back and think about what you are saying.

One interesting thing about the Tuam story this weekens is that there is nothing new in it merely confirmation of what we have already known for a couple of years now... but all the feels buttons are being pressed hard again.

You are missing the point. Of course there's nothing new to see here for anyone who has been paying attention.

Apathy is the problem. People need their 'feels buttons' pressed.

[bohsman]

I see the church a lot like I see FIFA, you are allowed to criticise the governing body while enjoying the game.

Massive massive reform of both organisations would be awesome.

[KevIRL]

Just back from Sunday night mass. Prayed for Lazare. He'll be okay.

[shano1888]

Natural causes lol.

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[Strewelpeter]

Such as?

The disconnect between the leader and reality. The promotion of thuggish violence at the rallies. The inability to understand more than bullet point policies with whoever in the inner circle was 'in' this week free to implement whatever they want as long as leader was kept happy. Control of media, focus on internal and external enemies that
The personalities are uncannily similar, I suppose pathetic insecure bullies are the same everywhere.

Again I'm not saying he is Hitler or that is is going to be in the same league as a mass murderer or that he will be able to destroy the institutions of American democracy. But comparisons are legitimate.

Here is an interesting side by side comparison of both elected leaders inauguration speeches.

SPOILER

President Trump: “For too long, a small group in our nation's capital has reaped the rewards of government while the people have borne the cost . ... Washington flourished, but the people did not share in its wealth. Politicians prospered, but the jobs left and the factories closed. … Their triumphs have not been your triumphs and, while they celebrated in our nation's capital, there was little to celebrate for struggling families all across our land.”

Chancellor Hitler: “More than 14 years have passed since the unhappy day when the German people, blinded by promises from foes at home and abroad, lost touch with honor and freedom, thereby losing all…”

Next, both Trump and Hitler conjure dismal imagery. This, as many news sources pointed out, was what so starkly differed between Trump’s inaugural speech and his predecessors’. But this tactic packs a powerful rhetorical punch; exaggerating the failures of past government inspires those who feel envious, resentful, downtrodden to trust in the exercise of power who would restore the days of prosper and plenty.


President Trump: “Mothers and children trapped in poverty in our inner cities, rusted out factories scattered like tombstones across the landscape of our nation… and the crime and the gangs and the drugs that have stolen too many lives and robbed our country of so much unrealized potential.”

Chancellor Hitler: “The misery of our people is horrible to behold! Millions of the industrial proletariat are unemployed and starving; the whole of the middle class and the small artisans have been impoverished.”

Throughout both speeches, both Trump and Hitler call on God’s blessing for their righteous causes. Some were surprised at the language of Trump’s inaugural address, which was more overtly religious than is typical for him. Of course, neither speech is interfaith: it is clear whose God is invoked (and which religions are not welcome at the table).

President Trump: “When America is united, America is totally unstoppable. There should be no fear. We are protected and we will always be protected. … we will be protected by God.”

Chancellor Hitler: “The national government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life....”

Perhaps most widely discussed in Donald Trump’s inaugural speech are the nationalist and populist themes. Trump calls this “Americanism.” We have seen this before. Structurally, these themes pervade each address.

President Trump: “We share one heart, one home and one glorious destiny….”

Chancellor Hitler: “But we are all filled with unbounded confidence for we believe in our people and their imperishable virtues. Every class and every individual must help us to found the new Reich.”

Appealing to the faith of the people and pledging commitment to a common cause, both Trump and Hitler close with strong statements of populist purpose and national unity.


President Trump: “Together we will make America strong again. We will make America wealthy again. We will make America proud again. We will make America safe again. And, yes, together, we will make America great again. Thank you. God bless you and God bless America. Thank you. God bless America.”

Chancellor Hitler: “Now, people of Germany, give us four years and then pass judgment upon us. … May God Almighty give our work his blessing, strengthen our purpose, and endow us with wisdom and the trust of our people, for we are fighting not for ourselves but for Germany.”

And so we have structural similarities, similar language, similar themes. Content aside, both speeches employ brilliant tactics for rallying believers to a cause and for unifying “the people” — Hitler called them “Volk” — behind broad exercise of power. Hitler delivered far more dangerous speeches, and Trump has more addresses yet to come. But the way each man chose to introduce himself as a new world leader is telling — and tellingly parallel.

Am I suggesting, with this comparison, that President Trump is the next Fuhrer and the United States is destined for another Holocaust and World War III? No. In addition to our separation of powers, we have seen organized resistance concerning efforts of the new administration. Last weekend’s marches demonstrated peaceful vigilance against authoritarian policies and xenophobic rhetoric. But must we continue to learn from the past and read the warning signs as we see them? Yes. Jawohl.

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[Raoul Duke III]

What sort of numbers do we need RD? In order to classify it as wanton genocide. Does it have to be millions before our moral compass is stretched?

Nobody is talking about murder, including those who have examined the remains.

Except you. Tone down the emotion and start in on some rational analysis.

[Raoul Duke III]

Natural causes lol.

Evidence?

[Raoul Duke III]

I'll hand over to Richie at this point.

Excellently expressed.

[MrsFlushdraw]

My youngest is doing her first communion in a couple of months. I am looking forward to it as I get to see my daughter all dressed up like a girl for a change. At no point have we been to church and her religion is taught outside the school twice a month for an hour each time.

[Guest]

Evidence?

Statistical child death rates vs what they have turned up sets off massive alarms. While it may not have been murder it was almost certainly huge neglect with many of the deaths caused as a direct result of diseases acquired due to the horrendous conditions.

[Raoul Duke III]

Statistical child death rates vs what they have turned up sets off massive alarms. While it may not have been murder it was almost certainly huge neglect with many of the deaths caused as a direct result of diseases acquired due to the horrendous conditions.

So.

Appalling - yes. Mistreatment - yes. Ignorance - yes.

Deliberate murder - no.

Not a holocaust. Not by any stretch of the imagination.

Language is a marvellous thing and we should be careful how we use it. Throwing around words like 'holocaust' is inimical to actual understanding and analysis. And, as I said, insulting to victims of actual holocausts - Jews, Armenians, Tutsis, Ukranians etc.

[bohsman]

So not natural causes either then.

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[MrsFlushdraw]

Huh? Why can't she be dressed up as a girl normally? It's not fancy dress day.

If you knew her you would know why. It's the only dress she will agree to wear !

She loves brides and that is why she likes it. Rest of the time she is dressed as batman or Spiderman

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[MrsFlushdraw]

Ha I remember her well. Sitting on a poker table with the MrFD when we had that poker night? Such a lovely girl. I refer you to my previous post by way of excuse!

Those were the days when she wore pretty tops etc lol. And don't worry. I know you are drunk.
Is your daughter a girly girl?

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[CHDad]

The major problem with religion is people believing in it. Lol at thinking there is a heaven or a God. Why would people believe in stories from thousands of years ago? They thought bad weather was a punishment from God. Jesus was probably the first really good magician and all this shite spiralled into killing humans and raping kids.

Humans are absolute fucking idiots.

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[Mellor]

As I said, a true christian, true to the accepted teachings of Christ would not wander into mass this morning.

The catholic church are not christian, in fact, ironically it seems the only people acting truly 'christian' are atheists. Especially with regard to the horror of Tuam.

What are the true teachings of Christ? I find that part a bit of an oxymoron.

Definitely agree that the church have behaved horribly in the past. But not sure if that's should be an unshakable lifetime label. should the german's be black marked forever due to the Nazis etc.

[pokerhand]

The major problem with religion is people believing in it. Lol at thinking there is a heaven or a God. Why would people believe in stories from thousands of years ago? They thought bad weather was a punishment from God. Jesus was probably the first really good magician and all this shite spiralled into killing humans and raping kids.

Humans are absolute fucking idiots.

I hate this kind of post as find it patronising and offensive. My family believe in god and are decent people. For you to make a generalisation that believing in god is lol worthly is insulting. The whole believing in god is an act of faith and is central to the core of being christian. whether you believe or dont believe is totally your own business and fine one way or another, but it doesnt give you the right to mock those who does.

I have absolutely no issue with those who despise it because of the regilious leaders and the horrible shit in the name of religion that went on in the institutions etc, but that is a corruption of power and exist in all type of bodies, regilious/legal/political etc...

I am not articulate enough to express my point properly but hope you get the gist.

[shano1888]

So not natural causes either then.

This. Fucking hell.

Duke, you are an intelligent man; you cannot actually think those children all died of natural causes.

[6starpool]

Religion is a man made thing built and used for control and exploitation of the masses which is just an expanded set of rules and beliefs built from ancient ignorance and superstition.

[CHDad]

I hate this kind of post as find it patronising and offensive. My family believe in god and are decent people. For you to make a generalisation that believing in god is lol worthly is insulting. The whole believing in god is an act of faith and is central to the core of being christian. whether you believe or dont believe is totally your own business and fine one way or another, but it doesnt give you the right to mock those who does.

I have absolutely no issue with those who despise it because of the regilious leaders and the horrible shit in the name of religion that went on in the institutions etc, but that is a corruption of power and exist in all type of bodies, regilious/legal/political etc...

I am not articulate enough to express my point properly but hope you get the gist.

I got the gist, you didn't think for yourselves and blindly followed a handed down lol belief.

I'm C H Fucking D m8, I'll do what I want. Much love to you though.

[Denny Crane]

The major problem with religion is people believing in it. Lol at thinking there is a heaven or a God. Why would people believe in stories from thousands of years ago? They thought bad weather was a punishment from God. Jesus was probably the first really good magician and all this shite spiralled into killing humans and raping kids.

Humans are absolute fucking idiots.

Anyone that hasn't realised this is a simulation needs their head examined.

[shano1888]

And even if they did, which they clearly fucking didn't, their remains were then chucked in a sewer.

I wouldn't equate it to the Holocaust myself but this shit happened in our county and it happend recently. People are way less put out by this than they should be.

Whenever we drive past one my young fella calls them castles. It's one of the few words I'm not going to teach him. When he is an adult they will be relics anyway.

The church can fuck off.

[shano1888]

What are the true teachings of Christ? I find that part a bit of an oxymoron.

Definitely agree that the church have behaved horribly in the past. But not sure if that's should be an unshakable lifetime label. should the german's be black marked forever due to the Nazis etc.

Again, the Nazi comparison doesn't work. It would if Germans still supported the Nazi party. Nazi revisionists ARE black marked. Holocaust denial is a crime in Germany.