Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - BabyforV

[ArmaniJeans]

Out of interest Tara where do you stand on horse racing and greyhound racing?

[Fiend]

This is a perfectionist fallacy. Just because it's not possible to be 100% successful, doesn't mean we shouldn't do what we can to try.

Agreed and meat-eaters can still try by supporting higher animal welfare standards it just becomes a case of how far you go in that direction. Presumably even vegans draw a line somewhere.

[careca]

Not at all, there's not enough idiot tests out there, things like this should be everywhere to keep people in check.

WW games is enough of a test imo

[Micknail]

We should all be eating goop made from insects like in Snowpiercer.
Or maybe some soylent green would covert people to a different foodtype...

[Bubbleking]

I just had my first attempt at baking protein bars. chocolate, peanut butter and blueberry. They taste really nice (I think, need some more people to test them). Pity I couldnt cut evenly or they would have turned out nicer looking

http://instagram.com/p/tXsuRdGcA2/?modal=true

[Strewelpeter]

The environmental and efficiency arguments are completely different from the Ethical treatment of sentient beings one and shouldn't really be confused.

The former is just a matter of available energy and technology as Fiend says we are already producing twice as much food as we really need. The latter is a much more interesting question.

A question based on some earlier answers. Given that people are going to continue to consume meat for the foreseeable future do you think that cattle chickens and fish should all be subject to the same ethical care standards?

[Emmet]

I just had my first attempt at baking protein bars. chocolate, peanut butter and blueberry. They taste really nice (I think, need some more people to test them). Pity I couldnt cut evenly or they would have turned out nicer looking

http://instagram.com/p/tXsuRdGcA2/?modal=true

Have you added sugar or is it honey & some blueberry content?

[Emmet]

Article by the bbc this month:

Just linking these for others as found them from that quote
- http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/c...climate-change

- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-29007758

A harrowing thought maybe, but perhaps we're just outgrowing this "host"? Cull a few billion people and the balance swings back...

[Bubbleking]

Have you added sugar or is it honey & some blueberry content?

nah recipe is pretty simple

1.5 cups of oats - roll these out or leave as normal up to you
1 cup almond milk
3 bananas (mash these until paste)
1/4 jar of organic peanut butter
4 scoops ON whey protein (choc flavour)
1/2 a tub of tesco blueberries

literally just mix it all together and throw in the oven for 15 mins. cut and let cool

[Tar.Aldarion]

Out of interest Tara where do you stand on horse racing and greyhound racing?

I know little about horse racing but AFAIK the horses are usually kept in great conditions, and are treated well, because they are a way of making money, and if your horses aren't fit and healthy you cannot compete, nor win. I don't support horse racing though, because ultimately I don't think an animal should be subject to something that could result in its death just for our pleasure. I am not a fan of "use" of animals nor do I like what could happen to injured horses and I'm told a lot get medical problems later on but I don't know anything about it. Also when thingslike a broken ankle get an animal killed, I'm not for that. Obviously this is far down the list of bad things that happens to animals currently.

Grehound racing is a crueler sport as the things done to the dogs are worse, they are valued way less than horses and are often mistreated at all points of their life, even before a race to make them do better. The fate of a retired greyhound is very bad.

Up to 40,000 greyhounds are bred every year in Ireland for racing, but many are destroyed after being injured or failing to make the grade.
The Greyhound Rescue Association of Ireland believes up to 10,000 greyhounds disappear every year. It has called for the owners to be held responsible.
Bronwen said: “They suffer horrific ends like being hanged, thrown in wells and burned alive.”
Many have their ears chopped off to remove identification tattoos before being thrown into rivers or hurled off cliffs. A grave with the bodies of seven greyhounds was found in Limerick in April.

In other countries they are treated even worse. Work held a night out at a greyhound race track, a lot of people didn't go due to opposing greyhound racing.

[Tar.Aldarion]

The environmental and efficiency arguments are completely different from the Ethical treatment of sentient beings one and shouldn't really be confused.

The former is just a matter of available energy and technology as Fiend says we are already producing twice as much food as we really need. The latter is a much more interesting question.

A question based on some earlier answers. Given that people are going to continue to consume meat for the foreseeable future do you think that cattle chickens and fish should all be subject to the same ethical care standards?

I beleive all their care standards should increase, of course for the people against this they are often vying to stop the need for better care when they think no care should be necessary in the western world at all.

Fishing is a joke. Even people in charge of it say it's doomed atm. 3/4 of the world’s fisheries are exploited. For every 1 pound of fish caught, an average of 5 pounds of unintended marine species are caught and discarded as by-kill. As many as 40% (63 billion pounds) of fish caught globally every year are discarded. Basically fish are being wiped out faster than they are being born.

Just linking these for others as found them from that quote
- http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/c...climate-change

- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-29007758

A harrowing thought maybe, but perhaps we're just outgrowing this "host"? Cull a few billion people and the balance swings back...

I don't think we have yet, the problem is how we manage what we have. We are approaching saturation point for a population that eats meat. However 100-150 billion animals are also fed on our food each year, the maximum capacity would increase dramatically based on not having them around, that is why the article mentions it is our choice of food that is worrying,

[Fiend]

If a sponge was wonderfully delicious and nutritious would a vegan eat it? It's an animal but it has no brain and presumably is not sentient. So is it then equivalent to a vegetable?

Eggs... Vegans don't eat these even though they are not sentient and only contain a tiny embryo that is 'potentially' sentient but absolutely can feel no pain.

[AndyFatBastard]

In the event of a zombie apocalypse or nuclear fallout, would you eat a squirrel-on-a-stick?

[Strewelpeter]

I beleive all their care standards should increase...
,

So you do accept that there is, for want of a better phrase, a scale of sentience or not

[QUOTE=Tar.Aldarion;841656...of course for the people against this they are often vying to stop the need for better care when they think no care should be necessary in the western world at all.
,[/QUOTE]
Beyond a few deranged individuals who actually thinks that?

. I don't support horse racing though, because ultimately I don't think an animal should be subject to something that could result in its death just for our pleasure.

You see this is where for me all logic has disappeared.

So you travel in cars and do not have a moral anti car position, yea?
Every day we as a society consciously decide that approximately 1 in every 40,000 of us in Ireland will die on the roads this year because it is convenient and fun for us to drive cars.

People die for our pleasure, why not animals?

[Tar.Aldarion]

If a sponge was wonderfully delicious and nutritious would a vegan eat it? It's an animal but it has no brain and presumably is not sentient. So is it then equivalent to a vegetable?

Eggs... Vegans don't eat these even though they are not sentient and only contain a tiny embryo that is 'potentially' sentient but absolutely can feel no pain.

There are already bivalves which would fall into that category perhaps, I believe people err on the side of caution and some think it would be a slippery slope for them and some would eat them. Each thing would be discussed on it's merits I guess.

People do not eat eggs because billions of male chicks are thrown into a blender at birth to support the industry. Not to mention what happens to the laying chickens throughout their producing life and they are also killed after anyway. Same as milk.

[Emmet]

Does that mean If I kept my own chickens, and ate their eggs, it could fit into the vegan thesis?

Interesting stuff Tar, keep answering.

[Tar.Aldarion]

So you do accept that there is, for want of a better phrase, a scale of sentience or not


Beyond a few deranged individuals who actually thinks that?



You see this is where for me all logic has disappeared.

So you travel in cars and do not have a moral anti car position, yea?
Every day we as a society consciously decide that approximately 1 in every 40,000 of us in Ireland will die on the roads this year because it is convenient and fun for us to drive cars.

People die for our pleasure, why not animals?

I am not sure what you mean by scale of sentience? is an adult more sentient than a child? Is an animal more sentient than a human vegetable? Is a dog more sentient than x? Does it matter once they feel pain. The question is not can they reason? nor, can they talk? but, can they suffer? Pain is pain, what is feeling it should be irrelevant, especially since we cant fully know what another thing feels, we can easily er on the side of caution as much as possible though, yet people do not. They don't need to reason to feel pain and suffering. Do you start contemplating whats reasonable while your on fire? We are all the same when we are in pain - mindless. No pain is any less valid than another.

Your latter point is a point about facilitating society whilst minimizing harm, and quite a big other argument. (not just humans die from driving)

[newbie2]

[Tar.Aldarion]

Does that mean If I kept my own chickens, and ate their eggs, it could fit into the vegan thesis?

Interesting stuff Tar, keep answering.

That is a more dispensary opinion. Some would be for that and some against. One would say, this causes minimum harm and the chicken is happy enough. Another might say that we shouldn't use their eggs as this causes them to produce eggs more often and this can have medical complications for a chicken, including broken eggshells inside them. At the far end of this we have people who would say that it does not matter, something elses life is not ours to use as we wish anyway. So there would be a spectrum on that that individuals would have to think about. As with much of this, everybody thinks slightly;y differently. There are places in other countries where chickens have been rescued in awful states from slaughterhouses or from egg farms, are nursed back to health and people can visit them. Their eggs are collected and sold as an aid to keeping their care up. There are more than 50 shades of grey to think about.


Edit: Hitlers favourite food was pigeon , newb

[Strewelpeter]

I am not sure what you mean by scale of sentience? is an adult more sentient than a child? Is an animal more sentient than a human vegetable? Is a dog more sentient than x? Does it matter once they feel pain. The question is not can they reason? nor, can they talk? but, can they suffer? Pain is pain, what is feeling it should be irrelevant, especially since we cant fully know what another thing feels, we can easily er on the side of caution as much as possible though, yet people do not. They don't need to reason to feel pain and suffering. Do you start contemplating whats reasonable while your on fire? We are all the same when we are in pain - mindless. No pain is any less valid than another.

Good answer but I think perhaps the bolded bit is the point of anthropomorphism where we diverge fundamentally, I'd say that pain is just pain and is nothing more than a stimulus that forces the brain to recognise an error condition - but suffering is a far more profound thing altogether and is a function of (human) consciousness.

There is a fundamental difference between us and all other species and everything we do relating to the environment and other species should be in terms of how it betters our survival and prosperity as a species. So yea save the rain forest and treat chickens humanely but only because its better for us that we do things that way.

There endeth the lesson for today.

[Emmet]

Feeling pain can't be the base line of the belief surely? What if we could remove pain from an animal?

From a theoretical viewpoint, if we could 'switch off' pain (drugs, genes, lobotomies whatever) from an animal's feelings, would we then be entitled to eat them again?

[hotspur]

There is a fundamental difference between us and all other species and everything we do relating to the environment and other species should be in terms of how it betters our survival and prosperity as a species.

Us versus them. And yet I bet you get outraged when someone is xenophobic, racist, misogynistic, homophobic etc. It's all just a function of evolved in-group tendencies that are differentially activated by how wide your definition of "us" is. For Tar it is living beings. For some it's white people, Irish, Catholics, heterosexuals, Dubs.

Now let's kick some ass on those 9 iron wielding American sub-humans.

[Fiend]

Feeling pain can't be the base line of the belief surely? What if we could remove pain from an animal?

From a theoretical viewpoint, if we could 'switch off' pain (drugs, genes, lobotomies whatever) from an animal's feelings, would we then be entitled to eat them again?

This puts me in mind of the moral hypothetical conundrum where there is an alien that has evolved significantly further than us and finds us incredibly tasty. Is it morally ok for said alien to eat us? If he viewed us as we viewed a dairy cow, are they morally the same choice?

[DeadParrot]

I used to teach excel for beginners (absolute beginners) and what you have outlined is fine. Maybe include how to copy a formula down a list of cells and how to reference data on a second sheet. Plenty in that though.

autofill
Sum, autosum, absolute sum
conditional formatting
basic functions like Concatenate, average, len etc
Shiny coloury formatting
Pivot tables

I used to get about 6 weeks outta that teaching back to schools and lte's back in the day

Super advanced people got to use the excel flight simulator (RIP)

[Lord Sir Banter]

I am not sure what you mean by scale of sentience? is an adult more sentient than a child? Is an animal more sentient than a human vegetable? Is a dog more sentient than x? Does it matter once they feel pain. The question is not can they reason? nor, can they talk? but, can they suffer? Pain is pain, what is feeling it should be irrelevant, especially since we cant fully know what another thing feels, we can easily er on the side of caution as much as possible though, yet people do not. They don't need to reason to feel pain and suffering. Do you start contemplating whats reasonable while your on fire? We are all the same when we are in pain - mindless. No pain is any less valid than another.

Your latter point is a point about facilitating society whilst minimizing harm, and quite a big other argument. (not just humans die from driving)

[one ill cat]

Grehound racing is a crueler sport as the things done to the dogs are worse, they are valued way less than horses and are often mistreated at all points of their life, even before a race to make them do better. The fate of a retired greyhound is very bad.

In other countries they are treated even worse. Work held a night out at a greyhound race track, a lot of people didn't go due to opposing greyhound racing.

I think this is too much of a broad brush statement tbh, the treatment of any animal often comes down to the human involved rather than the animal in question.
I'm not saying that animals aren't mistreated, just that they're certainly not mistreated by everyone. Tbh greyhounds aren't typically a household pet kind of dog in many instances (there are exeptions obv) just like race horses are generally bred for racing specifically. There's a reason why greyhounds are to be muzzled when out in public, as with a lot of them they have an instinct in them to kill small dogs, cats, rabbits etc. Greyhounds, when kept well & looked after appropriately, are perfectly healthy & enjoy racing. They are competitive, make no mistake about it & they know they're in competition with the dog running beside them. They're also highly intelligent animals & some of them make awesome pets, but some of them are literally born to race/chase a hare (whether it be real or fake) & are not suitable for pretty much anything else.

Your statement "I know little about horse racing but AFAIK the horses are usually kept in great conditions, and are treated well, because they are a way of making money, and if your horses aren't fit and healthy you cannot compete, nor win" applies just as much to greyhounds as it does horses. Again unfortunately not everyone keeping an animal treats them appropriately, but I think it too much a broad brush to say that greyhound racing is a crueler sport & they are mistreated at all points of their life.

[Hectorjelly]

Us versus them. And yet I bet you get outraged when someone is xenophobic, racist, misogynistic, homophobic etc. It's all just a function of evolved in-group tendencies that are differentially activated by how wide your definition of "us" is. For Tar it is living beings. For some it's white people, Irish, Catholics, heterosexuals, Dubs.

Now let's kick some ass on those 9 iron wielding American sub-humans.

Yes this.

The crux of any argument on vegetarianism boils down to how far you feel empathy should gp. There are many practical arguments on either side but ethically I can't see how its anything other than entirely subjective.

I'd eat another human if necessary.

[MrsFlushdraw]

I was learning in big school that they expect in the culinary world to have a huge shortage of beef in the next 20 years and that they are looking at locusts as a form of protein. I think it was locusts and it sounded fucking disgusting.

They will be using this protein ground up and added to things to give us the nutritional value without the whole "I am eating an insect" thing.

They expect the price of steak to rocket for the good cuts in restaurants and that at home people will be using the other cuts of meat that are flavoursome when cooked over a longer period.

On another note, a poor cherry tomato was put on the hot plate. You should have heard it squeal. Those murdering vegetarians don't realise that plants are living creatures too

[Zod]

lol

http://www.donedeal.ie/phones-for-sale/iphone-6-plus-repair-kit/7743037

[Tar.Aldarion]

I think this is too much of a broad brush statement tbh, the treatment of any animal often comes down to the human involved rather than the animal in question.
I'm not saying that animals aren't mistreated, just that they're certainly not mistreated by everyone. Tbh greyhounds aren't typically a household pet kind of dog in many instances (there are exeptions obv) just like race horses are generally bred for racing specifically. There's a reason why greyhounds are to be muzzled when out in public, as with a lot of them they have an instinct in them to kill small dogs, cats, rabbits etc. Greyhounds, when kept well & looked after appropriately, are perfectly healthy & enjoy racing. They are competitive, make no mistake about it & they know they're in competition with the dog running beside them. They're also highly intelligent animals & some of them make awesome pets, but some of them are literally born to race/chase a hare (whether it be real or fake) & are not suitable for pretty much anything else.

Your statement "I know little about horse racing but AFAIK the horses are usually kept in great conditions, and are treated well, because they are a way of making money, and if your horses aren't fit and healthy you cannot compete, nor win" applies just as much to greyhounds as it does horses. Again unfortunately not everyone keeping an animal treats them appropriately, but I think it too much a broad brush to say that greyhound racing is a crueler sport & they are mistreated at all points of their life.

Of course i mean no disrespect to those that care for their animals but it is a sport more riddled with bad welfare, do you not agree? Even those that are well looked after during their racing years, what is done with them after? And what about blooding that happens?

There is a reason these animals are prevalent in animal shelters and shallow graves. Taking horse racing and greyhound racing, the point I made about being against horse racing is the same for greyhounds, i don't think one is worse than the other in general. I just think that there are more cases rife throughout the greyhound community. I mean 10 thousand "missing" per year? That's a huge percentage of their population.

I often see greyhounds in animal shelters that have been horrible abused. Maybe I'm wrong and it happens with horses as much, as I said I've less experience dealing with horses. I may be biased by what I've seen. And am happy to be corrected on any of it.

This puts me in mind of the moral hypothetical conundrum where there is an alien that has evolved significantly further than us and finds us incredibly tasty. Is it morally ok for said alien to eat us? If he viewed us as we viewed a dairy cow, are they morally the same choice?

This is a classic question often asked in these debates. What if we are the lesser species? What if they are like pff, these simple creatures dont experience suffering as we do? That is something only Martians experience, they just experience simple pain with their simple mind.

Us versus them. And yet I bet you get outraged when someone is xenophobic, racist, misogynistic, homophobic etc. It's all just a function of evolved in-group tendencies that are differentially activated by how wide your definition of "us" is. For Tar it is living beings. For some it's white people, Irish, Catholics, heterosexuals, Dubs.

Now let's kick some ass on those 9 iron wielding American sub-humans.

Essentially this, and throughout time what is happening slowly, more and more things are being added to "us". All humans aren't even in there yet, so we have a long way to go even looking after ourselves. I want to think we can be better than that, that we should want to cause less suffering to "them" and bring them into "us".

What are your views on it?
Ryding those golfers is wrong imo.

Feeling pain can't be the base line of the belief surely? What if we could remove pain from an animal?

From a theoretical viewpoint, if we could 'switch off' pain (drugs, genes, lobotomies whatever) from an animal's feelings, would we then be entitled to eat them again?

It is much more complex than pain but most of the discussion is based on that, for instance take data on star trek (artificially intelligent android), I would afford him rights the same way they did.

Animals think, they reason, extent varies from a fly to a primate to us. they breathe like us they eat like us, they feel pain and happiness, they even do things for fun, play games etc. They feel badly when separated from their children (depression observed in primates). Some are seen as being as smart as a human child. What value life has and what measure we can mandate upon is a very tough question. I do not anthropomorphise animals but I have grown up around farms, I have had animals, I have see how they behave and noted individual personalities. I have thought about this and extended it to species that are unlike us and harder to empathize with. I could no longer stand by what was being done by me to these creatures unnecessarily. What I did was wrong to me, and if people think about it and realise they don't agree that is their right, but mainly I'd like people to think about it in the first place and not dismiss them.

[eamonhonda]

I have an excel training course from my time at state st. If it would be handy I could scan it for you. I would not be able to do this until next Monday if that was any good.

Thanks for the offer, gonna finish it up tonight think I am good. Cheers

[Fiend]

This is a classic question often asked in these debates. What if we are the lesser species? What if they are like pff, these simple creatures dont experience suffering as we do? That is something only Martians experience, they just experience simple pain with their simple mind.

Yes I would argue that it's not the same ethical decision but being a human I am probably biased... Once the food can give a cogent argument why it should not be eaten then it's next level shit. That's where my line is

[Tar.Aldarion]

Yes I would argue that it's not the same ethical decision but being a human I am probably biased... Once the food can give a cogent argument why it should not be eaten then it's next level shit. That's where my line is

Haha. I suppose if an alien race was so advanced that it traveled here, then our cogent arguments may not be cogent arguments to them at all? What if they said, "you do the same thing to animals that feel, why should we care that you feel?" Or that we say, "oh but we are smarter", and they say, "oh but we are smarter than you", "how exactly are you persuading us to not eat you here?" that's if they evev reconfigured our speech as anything more than balling of simple animals like their ancient unevolved ancestors heh

[DeadParrot]

Plants have no nervous system. It's physiologically not possible for them to experience a sensation close to what we call pain. Animals from more complex classes, including fish and insects, all have a nervous system no matter how rudimentary. Therefore it is very likely (essentially guaranteed by evolution) that they experience a sensation equivalent to pain. I don't believe that foxes or birds or fish ever ponder the meaning of life or the concept of death but if something experiences pain, I don't believe they should be made to experience pain unnecessarily.

By that definition Oysters are ok

[Raoul Duke III]

What do you pinko hippie girly-men think of bullfighting?

[Raoul Duke III]

By that definition Oysters are ok

Interesting fact about oysters: they have both male and female reproductive organs.

So they can GFYO.

[Tar.Aldarion]

By that definition Oysters are ok

I already mentioned bivalves and what people think about them ethically.
Quite a wealth of information and debate about it

http://sentientist.org/2013/05/20/the-ethical-case-for-eating-oysters-and-mussels/

Peter stringer has changes his views a few times even.



Why buy an iphone when you can get this imo

http://tinyurl.com/mq2snyk

[hotspur]

What are your views on it?

I experience some cognitive dissonance with the issue. Now if you were to see me hoovering the carpeted stairs and how careful I am to ensure I don't kill any small moths who snuggle up at the back of the stairs, or at how I stop anyone who is attempting to swat an insect then you would assume I should be a vegetarian or vegan. But I'm not.

I like meat. I don't eat animals, I eat meat. I get it from shops and restaurants. Zero chance I would ever kill an animal to eat it, I would eat something else. I also, broadly speaking, don't like vegetables. Becoming vegetarian or vegan would be a major hassle. So I just eat meat and try not to think about it.

I can ethically defend either perspective, but my behaviour results from being brought up in a society where it is the norm, it is sanitised (I can't eat a shellfish because it looks like something), and I like meat in what is already a restricted diet.

It is possible I could become a vegetarian or even a vegan in the future, but I'm not sure I would enjoy the whole sucking dick aspect of it. Also a ridiculously high percentage of such people are annoying. But I am certainly not comfortable with the reality that living beings are killed for me to eat.

The biggest problem I have with all of this is, for me, the biggest ethical problem of all - the value of life. Aside from emotional reactions and social ethical norms I am genuinely unsure if a life (any life) has value. This is a problem for me. If you ask me is it wrong to walk up behind a homeless guy in an alley who nobody cares about or loves anymore and painlessly shoot him dead in the back of the head then I have a problem justifying why that's wrong due to an overly weighted negative utilitarian perspective on ethics.

And when we go deeper into metaethics and our fundamental meanings of the ethics terms we use and meaningfulness of arguments we make in this arena then this tends to prove anything but enlightening and helpful.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to have "causes" and get riled up by social injustices, but I can't. It's all too complicated for me. I just end up shrugging in the mire of these complexities. I also believe that the real reason people choose causes is to give their lives meaning and feel a purpose. But you have to kind of believe it for it to work, it's Wizard of Oz type stuff.

This ramble may not make much sense to those reading, but I believe the broad position I am articulating is where humanity in our society has found itself from a certain point the 20th century. I tried pointing to something of it in my anti-modernity rant recently and the disappointment of our enlightenment project.

If anyone (doubtful) has the slightest interest in getting a sense of what the hell I'm on about and failing to articulate, I am watching an enjoyable 8 lecture video series on Youtube atm by a very entertaining philosopher (no really he's very enjoyable, very down to earth, Texan) that will point to what I'm talking about in some way (pasting playlist url):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wetwETy4u0&list=PLA34681B9BE88F5AA

[Guest]

Pretty much nailed it there Hotspur. A life of science has made me into a Reductionist. Most of our 'ethics' and societal norms just stem from the development of a GTO strategy for the propagation of our genes. Our species is going to get wiped out like all of the others in history. We're just a bunch of organic blobs whizzing around on a ball of iron that's eventually going to get enveloped by the local ball of burning hydrogen.
So hop in the gas guzzler with a big mac and ride the Darwin train to extinction imo.

[hotspur]

Pretty much nailed it there Hotspur. A life of science has made me into a Reductionist. Most of our 'ethics' and societal norms just stem from the development of a GTO strategy for the propagation of our genes. Our species is going to get wiped out like all of the others in history. We're just a bunch of organic blobs whizzing around on a ball of iron that's eventually going to get enveloped by the local ball of burning hydrogen.
So hop in the gas guzzler with a big mac and ride the Darwin train to extinction imo.

I listened to a good interview with Brian Cox on The Life Scientific on BBC radio 4 a couple of days ago. I normally dislike him when I see him on TV because I don't like his head, but enjoyed listening to him talking about quantum mechanics, physics in general, and science in general.

[Jam-Fly]

Sheep is up and running peeps - https://www.irishpokerboards.com/for...735#post841735

[Guest]

I can't really stand him tbh. He could be talking sense but his voice, and as you said, head are really tilting. Someone bought me one of his books for Christmas and I don't think I finished it.

[Tar.Aldarion]

What do you pinko hippie girly-men think of bullfighting?

I thik the fact that they injure the bulls before the fight and still lose sometimes makes them the girly men.

I experience some cognitive dissonance with the issue. Now if you were to see me hoovering the carpeted stairs and how careful I am to ensure I don't kill any small moths who snuggle up at the back of the stairs, or at how I stop anyone who is attempting to swat an insect then you would assume I should be a vegetarian or vegan. But I'm not.

I like meat. I don't eat animals, I eat meat. I get it from shops and restaurants. Zero chance I would ever kill an animal to eat it, I would eat something else. I also, broadly speaking, don't like vegetables. Becoming vegetarian or vegan would be a major hassle. So I just eat meat and try not to think about it.

I can ethically defend either perspective, but my behaviour results from being brought up in a society where it is the norm, it is sanitised (I can't eat a shellfish because it looks like something), and I like meat in what is already a restricted diet.

A lot of veg*ns start like this. I like meat, I love meat, I made GAB look like a vegan. I ate 0 vegetables, I only ate meat essentially... This is easy to do when society condones it, like any injustice that has been borne of society. Veganism isn't my only goal, betterment of "us" is. I'd be the same campaigning against a society where slavery was the norm, the same for homosexuality being outlawed and the same for any cause.

A lot of meat eaters profess this cognitive dissonance to me if they ask me about veganism. "Please don't discuss it more or I will have to be a vegan attitude". I say to myself, why run from what we feel? Is it not worth it to be a stronger and better realised version of ourselves? At least I when people think it is ok to kill them they are standing true to what they believe. However, I fully realise the difficulty in thinking outside the box in situations where something is ingrained in culture and society.

It is possible I could become a vegetarian or even a vegan in the future, but I'm not sure I would enjoy the whole sucking dick aspect of it. Also a ridiculously high percentage of such people are annoying. But I am certainly not comfortable with the reality that living beings are killed for me to eat.

It did suck dick at the start, but I find it pretty awesome now (it's not about limiting food for me, it's about finding new delicious foods now), most annoying ones are from media and don't really exist. Some do, majority just like the craic. /rememebrs running around mountains naked, bottle of russian standard vodka in hand.

The biggest problem I have with all of this is, for me, the biggest ethical problem of all - the value of life. Aside from emotional reactions and social ethical norms I am genuinely unsure if a life (any life) has value. This is a problem for me. If you ask me is it wrong to walk up behind a homeless guy in an alley who nobody cares about or loves anymore and painlessly shoot him dead in the back of the head then I have a problem justifying why that's wrong due to an overly weighted negative utilitarian perspective on ethics.

I think that is something a lot of people struggle with, I certainly have, I would go so far as to say what is the point/value of anything? Arbitrary. For an ethical vegan I am the opposite of you, have very little issue being able to kill anything myself due to this. It's kind of an all or nothing for me. My view is I may as well not exist and kill myself if I am going to half-ass life. I suppose I came to the conclusion is this is what we make of it, nothing more. There is no meaning but what does that matter to me even? What value we have on anything is what we feel and what we think. If I'm going to live then I'm going to live. You seem to have a disconnect from this, a depressionistic state of loss.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to have "causes" and get riled up by social injustices, but I can't. It's all too complicated for me. I just end up shrugging in the mire of these complexities. I also believe that the real reason people choose causes is to give their lives meaning and feel a purpose. But you have to kind of believe it for it to work, it's Wizard of Oz type stuff.

This ramble may not make much sense to those reading, but I believe the broad position I am articulating is where humanity in our society has found itself from a certain point the 20th century. I tried pointing to something of it in my anti-modernity rant recently and the disappointment of our enlightenment project.

If anyone (doubtful) has the slightest interest in getting a sense of what the hell I'm on about and failing to articulate, I am watching an enjoyable 8 lecture video series on Youtube atm by a very entertaining philosopher (no really he's very enjoyable, very down to earth, Texan) that will point to what I'm talking about in some way (pasting playlist url):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wet...4681B9BE88F5AA

It's certainly a ridiculous amount of causes somebody could have, and easy to see why anybody would despair or get mired in thinking about it all. I don't think life has a meaning or purpose, or that mine will ever have one. I don't honestly know why I have a drive to do what I feel is right but it is there. I don't know, or pretend to understand your disconnect, even if I often share the thoughts, if you will but I'd quite like to understand more so i'll happily watch some philosophy in a southern drawl.

On phone so not sure if post coherent or good but I tried

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[Tar.Aldarion]

IllI'll saysay sometsomething aboutabout postingposting herehere anywayanyway. EvenEven withwith vastlyvastly differeingdiffering viewsviews atat leastleast youyou getget thoughtthought andand debatedebate herehere unlikeunlike mostmost ofof thethe boardsboards fools

[Raoul Duke III]

I thik the fact that they injure the bulls before the fight and still lose sometimes makes them the girly men.

I agree, it is a bit soft. The exception being if the matador does it himself instead of relying on his picadors. Horn-shaving is also ethically dubious.

Six bulls is also too many, four is the optimum number imo

Never mind, it will all be golf tomorrow.

[6starpool]

IllI'll saysay sometsomething aboutabout postingposting herehere anywayanyway. EvenEven withwith vastlyvastly differeingdiffering viewsviews atat leastleast youyou getget thoughtthought andand debatedebate herehere unlikeunlike mostmost ofof thethe boardsboards fools

[Raoul Duke III]

Going to be interesting fitting in an extra 2 million people here in the next three decades. Although in fairness if the Dutch ran Ireland they'd be trying to ram in an extra 20 million and would probably do it better than us.

sure the place is mostly empty

although your wan could have said 5464611674461631756461 for all the equal validity it would have to her article

[Raoul Duke III]

I'd say this is already well underway. As we know, once countries reach a certain level of wealth their childbirth rates go rapidly down to non-sustainable levels (Irish being the odd exception). We're wiping ourselves out slowly.

dubious, surely all that's needed it some resource redistribution. Asia and Africa have too many children, we have too much money. Do the maths.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

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[davepoke/her]

After all tars work today we should all pick a date and go vegan for the day. Might be good bants reporting back results.

[DeadParrot]

After all tars work today we should all pick a date and go vegan for the day. Might be good bants reporting back results.

I give it a few hours before someone cracks and/or the 1st argument about mayo or butter on a sambo

[davepoke/her]

Wait, what? So I wouldn't be able to put butter on my cheesy beans on toasts? I'm out.

[6starpool]

Wait, what? So I wouldn't be able to put butter on my cheesy beans on toasts? I'm out.

Cheese is out too.

[Raoul Duke III]

I'll do up a plan good sir, but it may involve you giving up Asador.

now, now let's not be too hasty.....

In any case, I've done my bit for future population statistics and the continuation of our noble civilisation. You Sir, need to look inward and contemplate whether you have given your all.

[NiceandcoolTrig]

Anyone know the best proxy to use to give you an English IP address?

Tried chrispc but doesn't seem to be working.

[eamonhonda]

Anyone know the best proxy to use to give you an English IP address?

Tried chrispc but doesn't seem to be working.

Hola unblocker app

[AndyFatBastard]

Anyone know the best proxy to use to give you an English IP address?

Tried chrispc but doesn't seem to be working.

Hola Unblocker?

[NiceandcoolTrig]

Thanks lads, I'll give that a go.