Out of interest Tara where do you stand on horse racing and greyhound racing?
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Originally posted by AndyFatBastard View PostThis is a perfectionist fallacy. Just because it's not possible to be 100% successful, doesn't mean we shouldn't do what we can to try.
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I just had my first attempt at baking protein bars. chocolate, peanut butter and blueberry. They taste really nice (I think, need some more people to test them). Pity I couldnt cut evenly or they would have turned out nicer looking
http://instagram.com/p/tXsuRdGcA2/?modal=true
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The environmental and efficiency arguments are completely different from the Ethical treatment of sentient beings one and shouldn't really be confused.
The former is just a matter of available energy and technology as Fiend says we are already producing twice as much food as we really need. The latter is a much more interesting question.
A question based on some earlier answers. Given that people are going to continue to consume meat for the foreseeable future do you think that cattle chickens and fish should all be subject to the same ethical care standards?Turning millions into thousands
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Originally posted by Bubbleking View PostI just had my first attempt at baking protein bars. chocolate, peanut butter and blueberry. They taste really nice (I think, need some more people to test them). Pity I couldnt cut evenly or they would have turned out nicer looking
http://instagram.com/p/tXsuRdGcA2/?modal=true
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Originally posted by Tar.Aldarion View PostArticle by the bbc this month:
- http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/c...climate-change
- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-29007758
A harrowing thought maybe, but perhaps we're just outgrowing this "host"? Cull a few billion people and the balance swings back...
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Originally posted by Emmet View PostHave you added sugar or is it honey & some blueberry content?
1.5 cups of oats - roll these out or leave as normal up to you
1 cup almond milk
3 bananas (mash these until paste)
1/4 jar of organic peanut butter
4 scoops ON whey protein (choc flavour)
1/2 a tub of tesco blueberries
literally just mix it all together and throw in the oven for 15 mins. cut and let cool
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Originally posted by ArmaniJeans View PostOut of interest Tara where do you stand on horse racing and greyhound racing?
Grehound racing is a crueler sport as the things done to the dogs are worse, they are valued way less than horses and are often mistreated at all points of their life, even before a race to make them do better. The fate of a retired greyhound is very bad.
Up to 40,000 greyhounds are bred every year in Ireland for racing, but many are destroyed after being injured or failing to make the grade.
The Greyhound Rescue Association of Ireland believes up to 10,000 greyhounds disappear every year. It has called for the owners to be held responsible.
Bronwen said: “They suffer horrific ends like being hanged, thrown in wells and burned alive.”
Many have their ears chopped off to remove identification tattoos before being thrown into rivers or hurled off cliffs. A grave with the bodies of seven greyhounds was found in Limerick in April.
In other countries they are treated even worse. Work held a night out at a greyhound race track, a lot of people didn't go due to opposing greyhound racing.
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Originally posted by Strewelpeter View PostThe environmental and efficiency arguments are completely different from the Ethical treatment of sentient beings one and shouldn't really be confused.
The former is just a matter of available energy and technology as Fiend says we are already producing twice as much food as we really need. The latter is a much more interesting question.
A question based on some earlier answers. Given that people are going to continue to consume meat for the foreseeable future do you think that cattle chickens and fish should all be subject to the same ethical care standards?
Fishing is a joke. Even people in charge of it say it's doomed atm. 3/4 of the world’s fisheries are exploited. For every 1 pound of fish caught, an average of 5 pounds of unintended marine species are caught and discarded as by-kill. As many as 40% (63 billion pounds) of fish caught globally every year are discarded. Basically fish are being wiped out faster than they are being born.
Originally posted by Emmet View PostJust linking these for others as found them from that quote
- http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/c...climate-change
- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-29007758
A harrowing thought maybe, but perhaps we're just outgrowing this "host"? Cull a few billion people and the balance swings back...
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If a sponge was wonderfully delicious and nutritious would a vegan eat it? It's an animal but it has no brain and presumably is not sentient. So is it then equivalent to a vegetable?
Eggs... Vegans don't eat these even though they are not sentient and only contain a tiny embryo that is 'potentially' sentient but absolutely can feel no pain.
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Originally posted by Tar.Aldarion View PostI beleive all their care standards should increase...
,
[QUOTE=Tar.Aldarion;841656...of course for the people against this they are often vying to stop the need for better care when they think no care should be necessary in the western world at all.
,[/QUOTE]
Beyond a few deranged individuals who actually thinks that?
Originally posted by Tar.Aldarion View Post. I don't support horse racing though, because ultimately I don't think an animal should be subject to something that could result in its death just for our pleasure.
So you travel in cars and do not have a moral anti car position, yea?
Every day we as a society consciously decide that approximately 1 in every 40,000 of us in Ireland will die on the roads this year because it is convenient and fun for us to drive cars.
People die for our pleasure, why not animals?Turning millions into thousands
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Originally posted by Fiend View PostIf a sponge was wonderfully delicious and nutritious would a vegan eat it? It's an animal but it has no brain and presumably is not sentient. So is it then equivalent to a vegetable?
Eggs... Vegans don't eat these even though they are not sentient and only contain a tiny embryo that is 'potentially' sentient but absolutely can feel no pain.
People do not eat eggs because billions of male chicks are thrown into a blender at birth to support the industry. Not to mention what happens to the laying chickens throughout their producing life and they are also killed after anyway. Same as milk.
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Originally posted by Strewelpeter View PostSo you do accept that there is, for want of a better phrase, a scale of sentience or not
Beyond a few deranged individuals who actually thinks that?
You see this is where for me all logic has disappeared.
So you travel in cars and do not have a moral anti car position, yea?
Every day we as a society consciously decide that approximately 1 in every 40,000 of us in Ireland will die on the roads this year because it is convenient and fun for us to drive cars.
People die for our pleasure, why not animals?
Your latter point is a point about facilitating society whilst minimizing harm, and quite a big other argument. (not just humans die from driving)
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Originally posted by Emmet View PostDoes that mean If I kept my own chickens, and ate their eggs, it could fit into the vegan thesis?
Interesting stuff Tar, keep answering.
Edit: Hitlers favourite food was pigeon , newb
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Originally posted by Tar.Aldarion View PostI am not sure what you mean by scale of sentience? is an adult more sentient than a child? Is an animal more sentient than a human vegetable? Is a dog more sentient than x? Does it matter once they feel pain. The question is not can they reason? nor, can they talk? but, can they suffer? Pain is pain, what is feeling it should be irrelevant, especially since we cant fully know what another thing feels, we can easily er on the side of caution as much as possible though, yet people do not. They don't need to reason to feel pain and suffering. Do you start contemplating whats reasonable while your on fire? We are all the same when we are in pain - mindless. No pain is any less valid than another.
There is a fundamental difference between us and all other species and everything we do relating to the environment and other species should be in terms of how it betters our survival and prosperity as a species. So yea save the rain forest and treat chickens humanely but only because its better for us that we do things that way.
There endeth the lesson for today.Turning millions into thousands
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Originally posted by Strewelpeter View PostThere is a fundamental difference between us and all other species and everything we do relating to the environment and other species should be in terms of how it betters our survival and prosperity as a species.
Now let's kick some ass on those 9 iron wielding American sub-humans.
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Originally posted by Emmet View PostFeeling pain can't be the base line of the belief surely? What if we could remove pain from an animal?
From a theoretical viewpoint, if we could 'switch off' pain (drugs, genes, lobotomies whatever) from an animal's feelings, would we then be entitled to eat them again?
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Originally posted by careca View PostI used to teach excel for beginners (absolute beginners) and what you have outlined is fine. Maybe include how to copy a formula down a list of cells and how to reference data on a second sheet. Plenty in that though.
Sum, autosum, absolute sum
conditional formatting
basic functions like Concatenate, average, len etc
Shiny coloury formatting
Pivot tables
I used to get about 6 weeks outta that teaching back to schools and lte's back in the day
Super advanced people got to use the excel flight simulator (RIP)People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
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Originally posted by Tar.Aldarion View PostI am not sure what you mean by scale of sentience? is an adult more sentient than a child? Is an animal more sentient than a human vegetable? Is a dog more sentient than x? Does it matter once they feel pain. The question is not can they reason? nor, can they talk? but, can they suffer? Pain is pain, what is feeling it should be irrelevant, especially since we cant fully know what another thing feels, we can easily er on the side of caution as much as possible though, yet people do not. They don't need to reason to feel pain and suffering. Do you start contemplating whats reasonable while your on fire? We are all the same when we are in pain - mindless. No pain is any less valid than another.
Your latter point is a point about facilitating society whilst minimizing harm, and quite a big other argument. (not just humans die from driving)X can be anything, any number, that is what’s CRAZY about X.
Because X doesn’t roll like that, because X can’t be pinned down!
$ Free Travel Credit with Airbnb $
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Originally posted by Tar.Aldarion View PostGrehound racing is a crueler sport as the things done to the dogs are worse, they are valued way less than horses and are often mistreated at all points of their life, even before a race to make them do better. The fate of a retired greyhound is very bad.
In other countries they are treated even worse. Work held a night out at a greyhound race track, a lot of people didn't go due to opposing greyhound racing.
I'm not saying that animals aren't mistreated, just that they're certainly not mistreated by everyone. Tbh greyhounds aren't typically a household pet kind of dog in many instances (there are exeptions obv) just like race horses are generally bred for racing specifically. There's a reason why greyhounds are to be muzzled when out in public, as with a lot of them they have an instinct in them to kill small dogs, cats, rabbits etc. Greyhounds, when kept well & looked after appropriately, are perfectly healthy & enjoy racing. They are competitive, make no mistake about it & they know they're in competition with the dog running beside them. They're also highly intelligent animals & some of them make awesome pets, but some of them are literally born to race/chase a hare (whether it be real or fake) & are not suitable for pretty much anything else.
Your statement "I know little about horse racing but AFAIK the horses are usually kept in great conditions, and are treated well, because they are a way of making money, and if your horses aren't fit and healthy you cannot compete, nor win" applies just as much to greyhounds as it does horses. Again unfortunately not everyone keeping an animal treats them appropriately, but I think it too much a broad brush to say that greyhound racing is a crueler sport & they are mistreated at all points of their life.
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Originally posted by hotspur View PostUs versus them. And yet I bet you get outraged when someone is xenophobic, racist, misogynistic, homophobic etc. It's all just a function of evolved in-group tendencies that are differentially activated by how wide your definition of "us" is. For Tar it is living beings. For some it's white people, Irish, Catholics, heterosexuals, Dubs.
Now let's kick some ass on those 9 iron wielding American sub-humans.
The crux of any argument on vegetarianism boils down to how far you feel empathy should gp. There are many practical arguments on either side but ethically I can't see how its anything other than entirely subjective.
I'd eat another human if necessary.
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I was learning in big school that they expect in the culinary world to have a huge shortage of beef in the next 20 years and that they are looking at locusts as a form of protein. I think it was locusts and it sounded fucking disgusting.
They will be using this protein ground up and added to things to give us the nutritional value without the whole "I am eating an insect" thing.
They expect the price of steak to rocket for the good cuts in restaurants and that at home people will be using the other cuts of meat that are flavoursome when cooked over a longer period.
On another note, a poor cherry tomato was put on the hot plate. You should have heard it squeal. Those murdering vegetarians don't realise that plants are living creatures too
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Originally posted by one ill cat View PostI think this is too much of a broad brush statement tbh, the treatment of any animal often comes down to the human involved rather than the animal in question.
I'm not saying that animals aren't mistreated, just that they're certainly not mistreated by everyone. Tbh greyhounds aren't typically a household pet kind of dog in many instances (there are exeptions obv) just like race horses are generally bred for racing specifically. There's a reason why greyhounds are to be muzzled when out in public, as with a lot of them they have an instinct in them to kill small dogs, cats, rabbits etc. Greyhounds, when kept well & looked after appropriately, are perfectly healthy & enjoy racing. They are competitive, make no mistake about it & they know they're in competition with the dog running beside them. They're also highly intelligent animals & some of them make awesome pets, but some of them are literally born to race/chase a hare (whether it be real or fake) & are not suitable for pretty much anything else.
Your statement "I know little about horse racing but AFAIK the horses are usually kept in great conditions, and are treated well, because they are a way of making money, and if your horses aren't fit and healthy you cannot compete, nor win" applies just as much to greyhounds as it does horses. Again unfortunately not everyone keeping an animal treats them appropriately, but I think it too much a broad brush to say that greyhound racing is a crueler sport & they are mistreated at all points of their life.
There is a reason these animals are prevalent in animal shelters and shallow graves. Taking horse racing and greyhound racing, the point I made about being against horse racing is the same for greyhounds, i don't think one is worse than the other in general. I just think that there are more cases rife throughout the greyhound community. I mean 10 thousand "missing" per year? That's a huge percentage of their population.
I often see greyhounds in animal shelters that have been horrible abused. Maybe I'm wrong and it happens with horses as much, as I said I've less experience dealing with horses. I may be biased by what I've seen. And am happy to be corrected on any of it.
Originally posted by Fiend View PostThis puts me in mind of the moral hypothetical conundrum where there is an alien that has evolved significantly further than us and finds us incredibly tasty. Is it morally ok for said alien to eat us? If he viewed us as we viewed a dairy cow, are they morally the same choice?
Originally posted by hotspur View PostUs versus them. And yet I bet you get outraged when someone is xenophobic, racist, misogynistic, homophobic etc. It's all just a function of evolved in-group tendencies that are differentially activated by how wide your definition of "us" is. For Tar it is living beings. For some it's white people, Irish, Catholics, heterosexuals, Dubs.
Now let's kick some ass on those 9 iron wielding American sub-humans.
What are your views on it?
Ryding those golfers is wrong imo.
Originally posted by Emmet View PostFeeling pain can't be the base line of the belief surely? What if we could remove pain from an animal?
From a theoretical viewpoint, if we could 'switch off' pain (drugs, genes, lobotomies whatever) from an animal's feelings, would we then be entitled to eat them again?
Animals think, they reason, extent varies from a fly to a primate to us. they breathe like us they eat like us, they feel pain and happiness, they even do things for fun, play games etc. They feel badly when separated from their children (depression observed in primates). Some are seen as being as smart as a human child. What value life has and what measure we can mandate upon is a very tough question. I do not anthropomorphise animals but I have grown up around farms, I have had animals, I have see how they behave and noted individual personalities. I have thought about this and extended it to species that are unlike us and harder to empathize with. I could no longer stand by what was being done by me to these creatures unnecessarily. What I did was wrong to me, and if people think about it and realise they don't agree that is their right, but mainly I'd like people to think about it in the first place and not dismiss them.Last edited by Tar.Aldarion; 25-09-14, 16:04.
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Originally posted by tipp86 View PostI have an excel training course from my time at state st. If it would be handy I could scan it for you. I would not be able to do this until next Monday if that was any good.airport, lol
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Originally posted by Tar.Aldarion View PostThis is a classic question often asked in these debates. What if we are the lesser species? What if they are like pff, these simple creatures dont experience suffering as we do? That is something only Martians experience, they just experience simple pain with their simple mind.
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Originally posted by Fiend View PostYes I would argue that it's not the same ethical decision but being a human I am probably biased... Once the food can give a cogent argument why it should not be eaten then it's next level shit. That's where my line is
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Originally posted by Tar.Aldarion View Post
Plants have no nervous system. It's physiologically not possible for them to experience a sensation close to what we call pain. Animals from more complex classes, including fish and insects, all have a nervous system no matter how rudimentary. Therefore it is very likely (essentially guaranteed by evolution) that they experience a sensation equivalent to pain. I don't believe that foxes or birds or fish ever ponder the meaning of life or the concept of death but if something experiences pain, I don't believe they should be made to experience pain unnecessarily.People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
Get a shiny metal Revolut card! And a free tenner!
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Originally posted by DeadParrot View PostBy that definition Oysters are ok
Quite a wealth of information and debate about it
DANA69 ialah situs slot gacor gampang menang maxwin terbaru hari ini dengan seluruh pilihan game berbagai varian.
Peter stringer has changes his views a few times even.
Why buy an iphone when you can get this imo
Last edited by Tar.Aldarion; 25-09-14, 16:56.
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Originally posted by Tar.Aldarion View PostWhat are your views on it?
I like meat. I don't eat animals, I eat meat. I get it from shops and restaurants. Zero chance I would ever kill an animal to eat it, I would eat something else. I also, broadly speaking, don't like vegetables. Becoming vegetarian or vegan would be a major hassle. So I just eat meat and try not to think about it.
I can ethically defend either perspective, but my behaviour results from being brought up in a society where it is the norm, it is sanitised (I can't eat a shellfish because it looks like something), and I like meat in what is already a restricted diet.
It is possible I could become a vegetarian or even a vegan in the future, but I'm not sure I would enjoy the whole sucking dick aspect of it. Also a ridiculously high percentage of such people are annoying. But I am certainly not comfortable with the reality that living beings are killed for me to eat.
The biggest problem I have with all of this is, for me, the biggest ethical problem of all - the value of life. Aside from emotional reactions and social ethical norms I am genuinely unsure if a life (any life) has value. This is a problem for me. If you ask me is it wrong to walk up behind a homeless guy in an alley who nobody cares about or loves anymore and painlessly shoot him dead in the back of the head then I have a problem justifying why that's wrong due to an overly weighted negative utilitarian perspective on ethics.
And when we go deeper into metaethics and our fundamental meanings of the ethics terms we use and meaningfulness of arguments we make in this arena then this tends to prove anything but enlightening and helpful.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to have "causes" and get riled up by social injustices, but I can't. It's all too complicated for me. I just end up shrugging in the mire of these complexities. I also believe that the real reason people choose causes is to give their lives meaning and feel a purpose. But you have to kind of believe it for it to work, it's Wizard of Oz type stuff.
This ramble may not make much sense to those reading, but I believe the broad position I am articulating is where humanity in our society has found itself from a certain point the 20th century. I tried pointing to something of it in my anti-modernity rant recently and the disappointment of our enlightenment project.
If anyone (doubtful) has the slightest interest in getting a sense of what the hell I'm on about and failing to articulate, I am watching an enjoyable 8 lecture video series on Youtube atm by a very entertaining philosopher (no really he's very enjoyable, very down to earth, Texan) that will point to what I'm talking about in some way (pasting playlist url):
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Guest
Pretty much nailed it there Hotspur. A life of science has made me into a Reductionist. Most of our 'ethics' and societal norms just stem from the development of a GTO strategy for the propagation of our genes. Our species is going to get wiped out like all of the others in history. We're just a bunch of organic blobs whizzing around on a ball of iron that's eventually going to get enveloped by the local ball of burning hydrogen.
So hop in the gas guzzler with a big mac and ride the Darwin train to extinction imo.
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Originally posted by zuutroy View PostPretty much nailed it there Hotspur. A life of science has made me into a Reductionist. Most of our 'ethics' and societal norms just stem from the development of a GTO strategy for the propagation of our genes. Our species is going to get wiped out like all of the others in history. We're just a bunch of organic blobs whizzing around on a ball of iron that's eventually going to get enveloped by the local ball of burning hydrogen.
So hop in the gas guzzler with a big mac and ride the Darwin train to extinction imo.
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Guest
I can't really stand him tbh. He could be talking sense but his voice, and as you said, head are really tilting. Someone bought me one of his books for Christmas and I don't think I finished it.
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Originally posted by Raoul Duke III View PostWhat do you pinko hippie girly-men think of bullfighting?
Originally posted by hotspur View PostI experience some cognitive dissonance with the issue. Now if you were to see me hoovering the carpeted stairs and how careful I am to ensure I don't kill any small moths who snuggle up at the back of the stairs, or at how I stop anyone who is attempting to swat an insect then you would assume I should be a vegetarian or vegan. But I'm not.
I like meat. I don't eat animals, I eat meat. I get it from shops and restaurants. Zero chance I would ever kill an animal to eat it, I would eat something else. I also, broadly speaking, don't like vegetables. Becoming vegetarian or vegan would be a major hassle. So I just eat meat and try not to think about it.
I can ethically defend either perspective, but my behaviour results from being brought up in a society where it is the norm, it is sanitised (I can't eat a shellfish because it looks like something), and I like meat in what is already a restricted diet.
A lot of meat eaters profess this cognitive dissonance to me if they ask me about veganism. "Please don't discuss it more or I will have to be a vegan attitude". I say to myself, why run from what we feel? Is it not worth it to be a stronger and better realised version of ourselves? At least I when people think it is ok to kill them they are standing true to what they believe. However, I fully realise the difficulty in thinking outside the box in situations where something is ingrained in culture and society.
It is possible I could become a vegetarian or even a vegan in the future, but I'm not sure I would enjoy the whole sucking dick aspect of it. Also a ridiculously high percentage of such people are annoying. But I am certainly not comfortable with the reality that living beings are killed for me to eat.
The biggest problem I have with all of this is, for me, the biggest ethical problem of all - the value of life. Aside from emotional reactions and social ethical norms I am genuinely unsure if a life (any life) has value. This is a problem for me. If you ask me is it wrong to walk up behind a homeless guy in an alley who nobody cares about or loves anymore and painlessly shoot him dead in the back of the head then I have a problem justifying why that's wrong due to an overly weighted negative utilitarian perspective on ethics.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to have "causes" and get riled up by social injustices, but I can't. It's all too complicated for me. I just end up shrugging in the mire of these complexities. I also believe that the real reason people choose causes is to give their lives meaning and feel a purpose. But you have to kind of believe it for it to work, it's Wizard of Oz type stuff.
This ramble may not make much sense to those reading, but I believe the broad position I am articulating is where humanity in our society has found itself from a certain point the 20th century. I tried pointing to something of it in my anti-modernity rant recently and the disappointment of our enlightenment project.
If anyone (doubtful) has the slightest interest in getting a sense of what the hell I'm on about and failing to articulate, I am watching an enjoyable 8 lecture video series on Youtube atm by a very entertaining philosopher (no really he's very enjoyable, very down to earth, Texan) that will point to what I'm talking about in some way (pasting playlist url):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wet...4681B9BE88F5AA
On phone so not sure if post coherent or good but I triedLast edited by Tar.Aldarion; 25-09-14, 17:56.
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Originally posted by Tar.Aldarion View PostI thik the fact that they injure the bulls before the fight and still lose sometimes makes them the girly men.
Six bulls is also too many, four is the optimum number imo
Never mind, it will all be golf tomorrow."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by Tar.Aldarion View PostIllI'll saysay sometsomething aboutabout postingposting herehere anywayanyway. EvenEven withwith vastlyvastly differeingdiffering viewsviews atat leastleast youyou getget thoughtthought andand debatedebate herehere unlikeunlike mostmost ofof thethe boardsboards fools
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Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View PostGoing to be interesting fitting in an extra 2 million people here in the next three decades. Although in fairness if the Dutch ran Ireland they'd be trying to ram in an extra 20 million and would probably do it better than us.
although your wan could have said 5464611674461631756461 for all the equal validity it would have to her article"We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View PostI'd say this is already well underway. As we know, once countries reach a certain level of wealth their childbirth rates go rapidly down to non-sustainable levels (Irish being the odd exception). We're wiping ourselves out slowly."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by davepoke/her View PostAfter all tars work today we should all pick a date and go vegan for the day. Might be good bants reporting back results.People say I should be more humble I hope they understand, they don't listen when you mumble
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Originally posted by Hitchhiker's Guide To... View PostI'll do up a plan good sir, but it may involve you giving up Asador.
In any case, I've done my bit for future population statistics and the continuation of our noble civilisation. You Sir, need to look inward and contemplate whether you have given your all."We are not Europeans. Those people on the continent are freaks."
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Originally posted by NiceandcoolTrig View PostAnyone know the best proxy to use to give you an English IP address?
Tried chrispc but doesn't seem to be working."I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson
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