Raise or check this flop

[markc]

Villain is a serial limp caller pre flop. He limps, 3 other limp and I raise approx 5bb from the BB with KQo. Villain calls and other limpers fold. Flop comes K T 4 rainbow. Do you bet for value, check with the intention of raising a bet or check with the intention of calling a bet. Assume stacks are approx 30bb. What would be the deciding factors for you? thx!

[shano_88]

bet for value nearly always. He can have a huge range of hands that he can call a bet with and he isnt always going to bet them when checked to.

[8611]

as described villain is passive so bet

[Winning!]

Cbetting 100% of my range on that board. You don't make money in these spots by hoping a passive player will hang himself.

[Flushdraw]

I prefer a shove pf. You've 30bb and there's 5 out there so adding 16% to my stack when there seems to be literally 0% chance you'll get called is the way forward. As played, i'm cbetting/calling a shove against the described player

[Flushdraw]

Oh and it's 'bet or check this flop' not 'raise'

Had a dealer in Killarney that constantly said 'raise' when someone led out on the flop. Tilts the bejasus out of me!

[TrollDonkFish]

wouldn't be putting in that 5bb raise in the first place but definitely CBetting that flop. It's the situation you were hoping for with this hand. Problem with this situation the way I see it is you decision is made if he comes back at you after your CBet and a loose passive could easily be sitting there with a KT. Would try to avoid these spots as much as possible or else make them as cheap as possible on yourself.

[AndyFatBastard]

I prefer a shove pf. You've 30bb and there's 5 out there so adding 16% to my stack when there seems to be literally 0% chance you'll get called is the way forward. As played, i'm cbetting/calling a shove against the described player

Yeah I'd probably raise more pre or just shove. OOP + army of limpers means we need plenty of FE for this to be good. They will fold a huge amount of the time, decide to stack off with a small pocket pair or some bullshit hand some of the time, and have the rare slowplayed monster. Overall I think just shoving is the best play.

[UlDuffer]

Given villain's limptard image shove pre seems the best play but as played c bet 100% of range as winning said and don't fold to further action this shallow.

I hate raising oop on your stack size. I'd prefer checking to making the 5bb raise. If you miss c bet and get flatted you're giving up on the turn too often and now you have about 20bbs which handcuffs what you can do. Basically you're aiting for a reshove spot now and that's never cool : (

Shove > Check > Raise imo

[markc]

Thx all. Interesting and differing perspectives here. I think tonys point about adding a nice chunk to stack without much chance of being called is a good one. I was playing pretty tight which makes that even more likely. The more I think the more I like the shove. I think at the time I figured I can raise 15% of my stack with a chance of getting it through, an option to fold to a shove depending on the player and a decent enough hand to see a flop with if called.

As played I checked the flop with the intention of shoving to any bet. I did not cbet as I figured I had a slim chance of being called and would lose value from what is now a pretty good hand. I thin shano was right though, plenty of hands tha can call a bet here and I should have done so.

The turn brought a queen now have two pair and decide to go for value and I bet. Villain shoved and I called. Really thought I was good there and I can be a lot of the time AQ, QT very possible but as it happened he had AJ for broadway. I felt QT most likely holding given the action. I rarely limp pre anyway but limp calling with a hand like AJ - oh well. Felt a little coolered but no big deal. I still had enough to rebuild which I did. Just one of those spots
where i took the chance to trap and got nailed. Maybe I'll just take the
guesswork out of it next time and shove pre

[Laois Hammer]

Does no one like checking pre? Whys this bad?

Maybe raising gets it HU but Your likely gonna be OOP in a bloated pot where you need to fire a cbet everytime and the pot will now be apx your stack size. Seems unnecessary?

[Winning!]

Does no one like checking pre? Whys this bad?

Maybe raising gets it HU but Your likely gonna be OOP in a bloated pot where you need to fire a cbet everytime and the pot will now be apx your stack size. Seems unnecessary?

Just reread OP, is definitely a check or shove prev assuming a 30BB stack and 4 limpers. With ante I shove, pre ante I check. Raising any amount other than all in leaves us in a tough spots quite often

[anymorejokes]

Does no one like checking pre? Whys this bad?

Maybe raising gets it HU but Your likely gonna be OOP in a bloated pot where you need to fire a cbet everytime and the pot will now be apx your stack size. Seems unnecessary?

i'm checking this a lot pre. disguises our hand when we hit as well. Like you said mainly so we don't have to play a bloated pot OOP.

I hate the raise pre its just bad. Shove or check for sure pre.

[BrianN]

I agree with Laois Hammer and anymorejokes. I'm never raising pre here. My range for raising out of the bb would be very very tight. We're putting ourselves in tough post flop spots by just raising imo. If i do choose to raise it would be a lot bigger also. In a live tournament you won't get many folds once one person calls the raise they all will.

[TrollDonkFish]

i'm checking this a lot pre. disguises our hand when we hit as well. Like you said mainly so we don't have to play a bloated pot OOP.

I hate the raise pre its just bad. Shove or check for sure pre.

I'm pretty much checking that preflop 100% of the time. I don't see why anyone would want to play KQo OOP in an inflated pot and assuming the stacks are 30BB it's just too much for me to shove, I understand the logic behind it but really don't see the point in taking the risk....

[Flushdraw]

Does no one like checking pre? Whys this bad?

Maybe raising gets it HU but Your likely gonna be OOP in a bloated pot where you need to fire a cbet everytime and the pot will now be apx your stack size. Seems unnecessary?

Checking isn't bad, but..

Shove > Check > Raise imo

The only difference i would have made in the above post is Shove > Check >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Raise

If we've 9k and blinds are 150/300 and there's 1500 in the pot (assuming no antes) when it gets to me, i'd find it pretty difficult not to shove here with KQ and a lot of worse hands tbh.

[markc]

Checking isn't bad, but..



The only difference i would have made in the above post is Shove > Check >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Raise

If we've 9k and blinds are 150/300 and there's 1500 in the pot (assuming no antes) when it gets to me, i'd find it pretty difficult not to shove here with KQ and a lot of worse hands tbh.

I think the hand is an odd one because of the stack sizes. 20bb deep and it's a no brainer shove. 30bb deep and it becomes a bit tougher and that's the main reason I posted in the first place. From reading all the above I can see why the shove is better than the raise but I am not so sure about the calling option. ok I'm only in for the BB but KQ is a pretty decent hand versus a serial limper and a few others calling for pot odds. Do we really wantto see a multi way pot with KQ out of position. At least the raise would fold out many hands that are actually ahead of us at this point. Next time I shove!

[anymorejokes]

I think the hand is an odd one because of the stack sizes. 20bb deep and it's a no brainer shove. 30bb deep and it becomes a bit tougher and that's the main reason I posted in the first place. From reading all the above I can see why the shove is better than the raise but I am not so sure about the calling option. ok I'm only in for the BB but KQ is a pretty decent hand versus a serial limper and a few others calling for pot odds. Do we really wantto see a multi way pot with KQ out of position. At least the raise would fold out many hands that are actually ahead of us at this point. Next time I shove!

does the calling option mean checking your option in the big blind?
checking is much better than raising unless its a shove.

That last line, Do u mean your 5x raise? If so your not getting many hands that are better than yours to fold. and seeing the flop multiway out of position by checking is better than raising to 5x and getting called, as your now playing a large pot out of position and makes it hard for you when you miss and don't hit the flop so hard like this time.

[luckylucky]

30bb deep and it becomes a bit tougher and that's the main reason I posted in the first place.

30 BB deep and it becomes that bit trickier alright - I think a shove is still fine but as it gets to 40 or 50 bbs you wouldn't be doing a shove in a hurry in this spot. Your raise I don't think is as horrible as others suggest - it might... just might get some small pairs to fold - especially if the first limper folds.

That last line, Do u mean your 5x raise? If so your not getting many hands that are better than yours to fold. and seeing the flop multiway out of position by checking is better than raising to 5x and getting called, as your now playing a large pot out of position and makes it hard for you when you miss and don't hit the flop so hard like this time.

That's one way of looking at it and I'm not saying it's the wrong way, however if the pot is multiway and he misses then he's done with the hand and loses 5xBB , not the end of the world, however if he hits he might very well get 1 caller and will probably be ahead. So a reasonable chance of doubling up, if it goes awry well that's poker.

If he only gets 1 caller preflop - there is still the option to continue bet, board depending even if he misses.

This to me is quite a grey area situation. Personally I don't really like checking preflop as it lets limp donks off the hook. Post flop as it stands much more clear of course to just go ahead and value bet.

Saying all that I'd probably side with the shove in the end as it removes post flop headaches.

[markc]

30 BB deep and it becomes that bit trickier alright - I think a shove is still fine but as it gets to 40 or 50 bbs you wouldn't be doing a shove in a hurry in this spot. Your raise I don't think is as horrible as others suggest - it might... just might get some small pairs to fold - especially if the first limper folds.



That's one way of looking at it and I'm not saying it's the wrong way, however if the pot is multiway and he misses then he's done with the hand and loses 5xBB , not the end of the world, however if he hits he might very well get 1 caller and will probably be ahead. So a reasonable chance of doubling up, if it goes awry well that's poker.

If he only gets 1 caller preflop - there is still the option to continue bet, board depending even if he misses.

This to me is quite a grey area situation. Personally I don't really like checking preflop as it lets limp donks off the hook. Post flop as it stands much more clear of course to just go ahead and value bet.

Saying all that I'd probably side with the shove in the end as it removes post flop headaches.

Yeah - that pretty much sums it up for me. At 30BB deep I'm just about in the stage where I am interested in seeing a flop with this kind of hand, just not a multi way pot OOP. I prefer the raise to the check tbh but agree with the rationale for shoving. I think I played the hand wrong because I overvalued my stack size. At 50BB deep + would anyone still check the option in the BB to a bunch of limpers like that?

With my raise any ace smaller than a 9 probably folds, mid pairs down probably fold (or shove but calling is unlikely). The key was to get past the first limper and that did not work so there you go.

With my raise I also have a better chance of a cbet bluff getting through post flop and I have started to build a bigger pot if I do hit so advantages also there.

Overall I think the shove is best but don't agree that the check option is that much better than my 5x raise but really appreciate the perspectives offered and the reasons behind them.

Thx all..