200$ rebuy MTT, Whats my best move here?

[AceOfShamrocks]

Poker Stars, $200 Buy-in (250/500 blinds, 50 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 8 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #10757162

MP1: 22,562 (45.1 bb)
MP2: 82,468 (164.9 bb)
Hero (MP3): 29,676 (59.4 bb)
CO: 26,800 (53.6 bb)
BTN: 16,062 (32.1 bb)
SB: 18,950 (37.9 bb)
BB: 5,887 (11.8 bb)
UTG+2: 24,893 (49.8 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J J
2 folds, MP2 raises to 1,050, Hero raises to 3,000, CO raises to 6,543, 4 folds

MP2 opening range is wide, not enough information on CO as I have not seen many showdowns from him. Its an aggresive table. Rebuy period has finished, only read I have is that MP2 opening range is wide.

[peterswellman]

I'd flat pre this deep. I don't really think getting 60bb preflop is profitable. I know we are 3-betting for value BUT we must think ahead before we 3-bet how we're going to proceed. I'd just flat this and play a pot in position. I reckon QQ+ i three bet and try to get the loots in. 77-JJ, I'd just flat. I might throw in some random suited connectors to 3-bet fold a villain who seems to believe 3-bets maybe a little more than he should.

Given his sizing I fold now. I guess.

[TommyGunne]

I'd need reads strong enough to want to felt this before 3betting.

[Winning!]

Yeah I like a flat here pre with stacks unless you've been 3betting a lot, in which case 3b/c or 3b/5b/c are fine.

Fold as played.

[JWillo1]

we're out of position if we flat here, which is just terrible. why would u flat pre? if its because we think we're ahead then just get it in, folding isnt that bad but considering our 3 betting range can be quite wide im just gonna get it in here.

IMO shoving >folding>calling

[Emmet]

we're out of position if we flat here, which is just terrible. why would u flat pre? if its because we think we're ahead then just get it in, folding isnt that bad but considering our 3 betting range can be quite wide im just gonna get it in here.

IMO shoving >folding>calling

they mean don't 3 bet, and I agree

[peterswellman]

we're out of position if we flat here, which is just terrible. why would u flat pre? if its because we think we're ahead then just get it in, folding isnt that bad but considering our 3 betting range can be quite wide im just gonna get it in here.

IMO shoving >folding>calling

We're talking about flat calling the original open. Never, in a million years flatting the cold four bet.

I personally think, getting 60bb against a cold four-bet range from a random is pissing away money.

[JWillo1]

they mean don't 3 bet, and I agree

Ah i see, I think you'd have to 3bet the opener here tho right? If opener is very loose then I get it in vs the 4better but if he's tight then I fold to the 4bettor. now wud be a good time to have stats on the players

Edit: you tend to find very aggro players in these, but yea folding is grand

[JWillo1]

actually at the end of the day I prob FML , check if hes swedish or russian and if he is, shove.

[peterswellman]

Ah i see, I think you'd have to 3bet the opener here tho right?

Why? We're deep, in position and have a hand we're not 100% comfortable getting in pre because of how deep we are.. For me, it's not a case of, i've JJ must re-raise. Let's play some streets and evaluate. I only 3-bet if I know I want to 3b/get it in or 3b/f. Let's have a plan.

[JWillo1]

we're not 3betting to get it in but to build a pot in position, let him make the mistakes. If we flat and the flop comes q or k high are we calling him down? what if we get 3bet from the button, are we flatting that?, we cud be getting into some far tricker situations and on further streets IMO. Here we have control of the hand and it would be a lot easier to fold to this 4bet then to a single 3bet / have to play OOP

[peterswellman]

we're not 3betting to get it in but to build a pot in position, let him make the mistakes. If we flat and the flop comes q or k high are we calling him down? what if we get 3bet from the button, are we flatting that?, we cud be getting into some far tricker situations and on further streets IMO. Here we have control of the hand and it would be a lot easier to fold to this 4bet then to a single 3bet / have to play OOP

If the flop comes Q or K high i'll certainly be calling one street and maybe two and just evaluating. If we get 3 bet from the I may peel and I may not depending on the players.. Surely it's identicial to this hand. Why are you so afraid of playing streets in position? Let's assume we have an advantage and play well post flop, let's peel and see with what is more than likely the best hand. I don't really get why so tournament players are so afraid of going to flops. By building a pot, what hands are we going to really call a 3-bet with and barrell off lots. Let's assume the opener has 99 and the flop comes 2 5 8, are we not going to win a reasonable pot because our hand strength is disguised? I'm sure even AK, AQ and tons of broadway draws will barrell at least once at that flop.

By 3-betting, we fold alot of worse hands out. By just flatting those hands go nowhere.

I've a question for you, when you 3-bet the original opener, and let's assume the four bet never happens and the action comes back to him and he makes it 6666 for example. What's your plan? Folding, yeah? We have a very strong hand, why get blown off it by possibly worse. What's to say he won't turn a hand like 88 into a bluff by four betting tiny? When if we go to a flop there is a good chance we can allow him to think he has the best hand a barrell a few streets.

I dunno, that's my line of thinking behind it anyway. Guess we'll have to disagree.

[JWillo1]

Why are you so afraid of playing streets in position? Let's assume we have an advantage and play well post flop, let's peel and see with what is more than likely the best hand. I don't really get why so tournament players are so afraid of going to flops.


I dunno, that's my line of thinking behind it anyway. Guess we'll have to disagree.

We're 3betting to isolate the original raiser,I agree to play in position.We will have position on the big stack. I dont know why u think I'm afraid of playing in position? I was saying not to flat because then we could be playing OOP .if we dont 3bet we cud get a bunch of callers behind us and we could be out of position and out on a limb.

Also I mean if ur not 3betting JJ what are u 3betting? AK AA QQ KK? got to balance your range man. if the big stack comes ott I wud be more inclined to get it in vs him then the cold 4bettor for obvious reasons.

[AKQJ10]

We're 3betting to isolate the original raiser,I agree to play in position.We will have position on the big stack. I dont know why u think I'm afraid of playing in position? I was saying not to flat because then we could be playing OOP .if we dont 3bet we cud get a bunch of callers behind us and we could be out of position and out on a limb.

Also I mean if ur not 3betting JJ what are u 3betting? AK AA QQ KK? got to balance your range man. if the big stack comes ott I wud be more inclined to get it in vs him then the cold 4bettor for obvious reasons.

Flatting will disguise our hand and avoid ugh spots like this. If i had history vs the opener i might 3bet pre to get it in vs him but in general flatting here is best. Its a 200r, you dont have to worry so much about a 6way flop or anything. Fold now as played. Your sizing looks strong and unless youve been 3betting every 2nd hand cant see him thinking its a good spot.

As for balancing ranges. Just because im flatting JJ doesn't mean im not 3betting 56d. No need to get hung up on balancing ranges in MTTs as once theyve seen you spazz once they'll never believe you anyway

[peterswellman]

We're 3betting to isolate the original raiser,I agree to play in position.We will have position on the big stack. I dont know why u think I'm afraid of playing in position? I was saying not to flat because then we could be playing OOP .if we dont 3bet we cud get a bunch of callers behind us and we could be out of position and out on a limb.

Also I mean if ur not 3betting JJ what are u 3betting? AK AA QQ KK? got to balance your range man. if the big stack comes ott I wud be more inclined to get it in vs him then the cold 4bettor for obvious reasons.

At the expense of folding alot worse out you're going to 3-bet to iso? There is no guarantee he is going to proceed with much worse when we 3-bet and we're going to always fold, if he then goes ahead and 4-bets, seems pretty flawed to me. The only reason I'll 3-bet here is if I'm happy getting in versus a complete spazztard. Other than that, I'll always flat here.

Balancing my range is easy, 3-bet suited connectors etc, that I'm snap folding to 4-bets but can easily flop well. That's how I balance my range.

[JWillo1]

right so say we do flat and disguise our hand and the co 3bets IP, How do we proceed?? we're presumably ahead of a lot of his 3betting range?

[peterswellman]

right so say we do flat and disguise our hand and the co 3bets IP, How do we proceed?? we're presumably ahead of a lot of his 3betting range?

Depends on sizing, stats and sometimes location.

[Winning!]

right so say we do flat and disguise our hand and the co 3bets IP, How do we proceed?? we're presumably ahead of a lot of his 3betting range?

We can start by calling.. Our hand is under-repped and villains range is much wider so we can induce mistakes by allowing him to bluff of chips assuming we have a marginal holding or other such things. Granted we may get bluffed off the pot a small amount when the board comes down a nasty AKx or something, but if that's what you're afraid of then you can go ahead and 4b/call pre hoping to induce a move from villains much wider range by taking an unusual line.

There's many ways to play a hand, and tbh 3betting pre wasn't terrible (although the sizing was), it's just easier to play big but vulnerable hands in smaller pots when we wont know how to react if we find ourselves in this kind of situation.

[AceOfShamrocks]

Ok so from the feedback I am getting most people feel that the 3bet was not the best play, the 3bet was too much and flat calling would have been better.

What size 3 bet would have been better? Min raise? 2.5k?

If I flat and CO raises what am I doing with JJ then? I know its dependent on what MP2 does but I am still interested on what people think I should do in this spot.

Thanks for feedback.

[UlDuffer]

JJ is a flat pre but as played i fold to the cold 4b his range is way too nutty without history to get this amount in. His range is QQ+ imo maybe AK also but even AK isn't in a lot of people's range here esp with his sizing. I fold now