Winamax 6 max hand vs Max Silver

[ghostface]

Sticking this hand up now as it's relatively fresh in my mind. Villain is Max Silver, very good aggro English pro (i'm sure most will know him). There has been a bit of 3 and 4 betting between us and has been good bit of banter at the table.

Hand that happened 3 or 4 hands previously may be relevant he raised, I called as did sb and on a flop of K92 we went to war a bit and he folded after I 5 bet the flop. Onto hand (bet sizes close to correct as I recall)... Stacks - me c. 25k Max Siver c. 15k

Blinds 50/100
Max raises to 300 and I 3 bet to 800 on button with 77

Flop 552

Action goes check check. I could bet here but have played a few hands weirdly vs him already like checking top pair on turn to induce a bet on next street which he will fire frequently at...

Turn 4

Max checked, I bet 900. After short dwell Max makes it 2350. I'm not sure what my line should be from here tbh. I ended up flatting the raise with the overpair.

River 8

Max bombs the river for over the pot c. 6850....

What's my play here?? No live reads to go on

[Midnitekowby]

dont agree with ur pre flop raise but thats another discussion, think ur biggest mistake in this pot is checking the flop tbh, because of this youve created this headache for yourself.

betting the flop defines his hand/narrows his range whilst also protecting your overpair.

becuase u havent c bet flop, now ur basically in a guessing game and thinking bout levels and metagame against as you say a very good aggro player. make ur life easier and cbet there.

think once you dwell up and call ur range is fairly face up, so now ur left thinking is he potting river to get me off the overpair?? does he know id nearly always bet the flushdraw on the flop and is punishing this?? is he goin turn over bluff and own the table?? but he can easily have a house/be value betting a flush here??

uve painted urself in this horrible spot when as you know theres much much more easier fish to fry out there in this particular field

as played id prob fold river unless i gave him the balor of the evil eye and got a very firm live read and save those chippes for the french donks to multiply for you

[Winning!]

He knows you wont have a house or flush here much having 3bet pre then checked back the flop, even if you've played some hands weirdly, so c/raising the turn as a bluff/semibluff becomes a good tricky play since he can rep so many hands you cant.

I know it's a 3b pot but with the aggro history I'd say our hand is slightly under-repped here having checked back. The river overbet is suspicious since he knows the 8 is a brick and anything you called with on the turn cant be super-strong, but you will call with again on the river for a decent price, so I dont think an overbet with his value hands would be the best line. I tend to pay this off.

[ghostface]

Yes I dont like my check on the flop in retrospect at all. What's the problem with the raise pre? Having said that I had flatted a bigger pair on the button to him earlier on when he raised so was just trying to mix things up a little (and had 3 bet him with garbage but was 4 bet from a different spot so had to fold which he enjoyed )

[danutpeddler]

What a weird one.

Not a fan of 3betting pre with the 77 at 50/100. Would like to know your reasoning for this?
I much prefer flatting, having position and setmining of course.

The fact that it's now a 3 bet pot I defo bet flop with my over pair. Not a fan of trapping with 77 here (it'll just get too manky).

On the turn essentially your trap has payed off, still feeling manky.

When you checked back the flop with top pair did he just bet fold in the past?

If i'm calling turn I'm puking on this river, it is super polerized, overbet bluffs are common enough these days but after being caught in a big bluff and knowing that you trap is he potting the river??.

All a bit manky for me in general.

What I did notice about him last year is that he liked to play lots of small pots and then suddenly massive ones for value but his 4bet bluff on flop (you sure this was 4bet?) and a few hands from the UKIPT that I read makes me think he has changed this strat.

[Midnitekowby]

Yes I dont like my check on the flop in retrospect at all. What's the problem with the raise pre? Having said that I had flatted a bigger pair on the button to him earlier on when he raised so was just trying to mix things up a little (and had 3 bet him with garbage but was 4 bet from a different spot so had to fold which he enjoyed )

just prefer a straight up set mine here, specially if uve 3bet him recently as you said ur in danger of been 4bet and losing ur implied odds to set mine. prefer to 3bet premiums/funky hands that ur willing to let go to a 4bet but if flat can bust him up.

nice analysis Winning

[Arazi]

It's pretty important to the final decision to know stack sizes (assuming 20k?).
I don't think you've played the hand very well but as played I'd be snap calling getting 2/1. Our hand is under repped and looks to much like AQ/AK with a big diamond.
Max can literally have anything here including a big PP, suited connectors with a 5, flush and all types of air.
The way he's played flop and turn he'll know that ur calling lots with AK type hands so if he's going to bluff with Air he must bet big. I'm snap calling.

I think you should really bet the flop here as said previously.

Ps when I call on the turn that's just the type of river I want to see, right?

[Closed_Account]

I dont mind pre BUT if you have a lot of history you feasibly lose the chance to play a sweet hand in position v an aggro punter if he decides to put in another bet.

Flop I would certainly bet-Id be betting close to all my my hands here. I guess your trying to keep the pot small and disguise your hand a little but can make things fairly tricky.

I like the turn.

I would defo fold the river to the overbet unless I thought for whatever reason he looked ridiculous.

[ghostface]

What a weird one.

Not a fan of 3betting pre with the 77 at 50/100. Would like to know your reasoning for this?
I much prefer flatting, having position and setmining of course.

The fact that it's now a 3 bet pot I defo bet flop with my over pair. Not a fan of trapping with 77 here (it'll just get too manky).

On the turn essentially your trap has payed off, still feeling manky.

When you checked back the flop with top pair did he just bet fold in the past?

If i'm calling turn I'm puking on this river, it is super polerized, overbet bluffs are common enough these days but after being caught in a big bluff and knowing that you trap is he potting the river??.

All a bit manky for me in general.

What I did notice about him last year is that he liked to play lots of small pots and then suddenly massive ones for value but his 4bet bluff on flop (you sure this was 4bet?) and a few hands from the UKIPT that I read makes me think he has changed this strat.

just prefer a straight up set mine here, specially if uve 3bet him recently as you said ur in danger of been 4bet and losing ur implied odds to set mine. prefer to 3bet premiums/funky hands that ur willing to let go to a 4bet but if flat can bust him up.

nice analysis Winning

Yeah see your point Fergal, Tom tbh hadnt really thought the 3 bet through pre at the time. He was opening a good few pots immediately to my right and I had flatted a few times and 3 bet twice I think at that stage. It was prob more so make him I aware I would 3 bet him but I see the value of doing it with a hand like 7s is prob not there.

When I checked back top pair on the turn prior to this in a pretty small pot he fired big on the river (about 1.4 times pot) which was odd and I just called to be immediately told I was good. He also folded pretty quick in a similar spot where he led small on the turn and I raised.

That hand he defo 4bet and I 5bet trying to get him to hang himself but he folded. FWIW I dont think it was a total bluff on his part in that hand due to a few things he said during/after the hand.

@ Winning, nice post as always. You've added a lot to the strat section in here.

[ghostface]

It's pretty important to the final decision to know stack sizes (assuming 20k?).
I don't think you've played the hand very well but as played I'd be snap calling getting 2/1. Our hand is under repped and looks to much like AQ/AK with a big diamond.
Max can literally have anything here including a big PP, suited connectors with a 5, flush and all types of air.
The way he's played flop and river he'll know that ur calling lots with AK type hands so if he's going to bluff with Air he must bet big. I'm snap calling.

I think you should really bet the flop here as said previously.

Ps when I call on the turn that's just the type of river I want to see, right?

Stacks in now, me playing 25k and cover. The river I don't think changes anything in the hand

[Mellor]

Stacks in now, me playing 25k and cover. The river I don't think changes anything in the hand

I don't think it does either.
I don't like your flop check, but it does make you look weak. His check raise on the turn could be a bluff (or semi bluff with AdXs) knowing you fire air here a lot. But it could also be a genuine hand for the same reason.

his river bets matchs these, firing the seconf barrell or max value.
I think his range is either crushing you or complete air. A house isn't out of the question, or maybe turned a flush. But given description I call hoping that he has missed enough to make it +EV. You only need to be good one time in three

[TheImprover]

The 3bet pre is fine imo, i defo bet the flop, i know what you are saying about trying to induce a bet from him on the turn, but if the turn brings a picture card or a diamond you dont know where you are, so you have to cbet.

Him having a 5 here must be in his range, 5,6/5,4 even 5,8s, me personally would prob give up on the turn but after making the call with the odds given( i'm a big odds man) i prob make a crying call on the river, the big bet on the river is either a monster or air.

Dont think you played it that well tbh, after all, all you have is 77 on a draw heavy board and at the early levels there is no real need to be getting involved like this, save it for the heavier levels and plays like this will stand better to you, but it worked out this time

[Wesley Harms]

The 3bet pre is fine imo

Don't like it at all tbh, your inflating 'the pot against a very good aggressive player with a hand that you will not know where you are on most flops. And probably obliged to fire a decent sized c-bet

[Hectorjelly]

Hate the 3 bet pre, I really don't understand the point of it. I'd much rather call with 77 and then 3 bet a unpaired hand.

If you check the flop you really have to call the river.

[TheImprover]

For me i would be only flatting pre, but how often would you see an aggresive player 3bet with this hand or even air? a lot i'd say, but been up against a very agg player a flat is always best, my motto is to keep pots small in the early stages and rake in as many as you can

[TheImprover]

If you check the flop you really have to call the river.

Do you not mean if you call the turn you have to call the river?

[poorbarman]

Do you not mean if you call the turn you have to call the river?

No i think he means as he says Keith

[smoothcall]

Very good aggressive player repping a relatively small range while your near the top of your perceived range = hard to fold for me.

[TheImprover]

No i think he means as he says Keith

Jaysus you are still around, ya i know he means what he is saying, just would like HJ to expand a little.

[Daragh999]

Your hand is so under-repped i don't see really how you can fold, hate your pre and flop line.

[ghostface]

I think his range is either crushing you or complete air. A house isn't out of the question, or maybe turned a flush. But given description I call hoping that he has missed enough to make it +EV. You only need to be good one time in three

This was my thoughts, I'm either crushed or ahead. I tank folded after the clock was called for. I erred a bit on the side of caution while doing this as I prob should call given the line taken and the player in question.

FWIW he let me know on Twitter there that I was absolutely crushed as he housed up on the turn. I like the way he played it

[AndyFatBastard]

He knows you wont have a house or flush here much having 3bet pre then checked back the flop, even if you've played some hands weirdly, so c/raising the turn as a bluff/semibluff becomes a good tricky play since he can rep so many hands you cant.

I know it's a 3b pot but with the aggro history I'd say our hand is slightly under-repped here having checked back. The river overbet is suspicious since he knows the 8 is a brick and anything you called with on the turn cant be super-strong, but you will call with again on the river for a decent price, so I dont think an overbet with his value hands would be the best line. I tend to pay this off.

I like your posts, sir.

[pgodkin]

He knows you wont have a house or flush here much having 3bet pre then checked back the flop, even if you've played some hands weirdly, so c/raising the turn as a bluff/semibluff becomes a good tricky play since he can rep so many hands you cant.

I know it's a 3b pot but with the aggro history I'd say our hand is slightly under-repped here having checked back. The river overbet is suspicious since he knows the 8 is a brick and anything you called with on the turn cant be super-strong, but you will call with again on the river for a decent price, so I dont think an overbet with his value hands would be the best line. I tend to pay this off.

Very good aggressive player repping a relatively small range while your near the top of your perceived range = hard to fold for me.

sexy posts! nothing to add as i am a fish

[blaaaaaaah]

You are playing the raising war but 77 is a flat all day here, you only open doors for max by raising pre, I'm surprised you were not 4bet tbh so I do believe he has a real hand like your own pp or suited connector that flops well, I don't see him having any other hands. He would 4bet all other trash and Ax hands.

I do not mind your check back on the flop at all, I think some ppl are missing the point of the check back here, 77 is not a hand for value on all 3 streets nor is it a hand that can stand a raise on the flop followed by a double barrel, your check back is fine imo you pretty much gave yourself a chance of seeing a river/getting vaule for your hand/ been able to bluff catch. On the flop if you bet your gonna loose the hand and be in alot worse pain.

Like I said at start once you bet turn his hands will only consist of bluffs that's missed or semi bluffs and the small pp which could be a set here, I doubt he raises any sooted connector that is one pair.

It is a tough spot and v such an aggro play I would also check the turn and only go for one street of vaule cause again your forgetting how good your opponent is and the pain he can bring. Again I must say I would not be in this spot alot early.

As played, I just don't know tbh it's sooooo tight, I'd prob just give it to him on the river and save chips for the frenchies.

[Arazi]

I find myself disagreeing with your flop analysis. I see your point but the pot has been 3 bet preflop and really checking behind gives up the lead in a pot that we're probably ahead.
Also Max is a lot tighter than he's being portrayed in this thread especially in Level 2 of an MTT imo

[Arazi]

I did notice from playing with him before that he tweets away about big hands he's been in as tournament progresses which I thought was a little strange and specifically remember him disclosing one of his holdings in a hand he played which I couldn't see him having had.
I'm not saying he didn't have 44, it's quite possible but verses an aggressive opponent I'd have played it rather different.

[Winning!]

Scarlet! lol

[ghostface]

I did notice from playing with him before that he tweets away about big hands he's been in as tournament progresses which I thought was a little strange and specifically remember him disclosing one of his holdings in a hand he played which I couldn't see him having had.
I'm not saying he didn't have 44, it's quite possible but verses an aggressive opponent I'd have played it rather different.

Just to be clear, he let me know about the hand after the tourn was over and he was knocked out so wasnt tweeted (i believe is how one says it ) during tourn

[Arazi]

Just to be clear, he let me know about the hand after the tourn was over and he was knocked out so wasnt tweeted (i believe is how one says it ) during tourn

Sure. I've been thinking about it from his point of view and assuming he had 4s there's a couple of pretty cool ways of playing the hand from the turn and I'm not sure which one I like best.