Hand from the Bruce game - flopped trips

[Arazi]

Ok, no history of note, it's the last level of day two and I've just come to the table. Smurf was there for a few hands before she busted unluckily and while welcoming me to the table said I was in the seat of death. There must have been plenty of action @ the table as the majority of players were above the average of 70k. I've been at table for a round and taken down one set of blinds and also played my BB in the Smurf hand, so quiet enough.
Villian is guy in his 50's who's just lost a hand where he raised X3 utg with 99 and called a shove for 20k and lost a race.
1200/2400 300 ante 8 handed
Folded to me in the cutoff and I open J2ss to 5100, BB calls. I'm playing a little over 80k and he just about covers.
Flop is QJJ with 2 diamonds
He checks, I c'bet 6300 and he raises to 16300. How do we play the hand from here?

[steve]

my first post so here it goes. all u know is that the guy played the last hand pretty standard. now checking such a draw heavy board seems unusual if he has Qx or Jx. If he has a made hand (QJ, as we should be able to rule out QQ) checking is also probably poor as it is a great board to hit heroes range in some kind of drawy way and so a smallish to medium size bet would be appropriate to keep hero in and hopefully let him hit his draw. Id be inclined to put villain on a flush draw, or (but less likely) a straight draw.its possible he checks for a free card, always with the intention of c/r if it comes to that, allowing him to represent a jack, and putting the hero in a very difficult spot if he holds Qx or an overpair. if villain does somehow hold Jx it is unlikely to be KJ or AJ as there was no preflop raise so there are quite substantial split pot possibilities.in hero's position i would reraise shove all in. you are surely getting villain to fold flush draws/ straight draws here which is good ( a crazy call by vilain at this stage of the hand with a FD or SD is even better, especially given the format of the 100's tournament). i dont think you are missing much value by shoving here as if he is holding Qx he should probably shut down if u call his raise unless he thinks u r bad enough to go chasing draws. if he has a straight flush draw the loot is going in the middle and ur flipping. if he has Jx, lets pray for the split or the miracle deuce, and if he has QJ, id go mental!!! Get it in I say. Thoughts??

[Guest]

i def dont shove all in here... just flat his raise and re-evaluate the turn and see what he does, if a scare card like a diamond or a straight card i think you can just fold the hand if he fires again... if a blank comes on the turn you just have to make a read on what you think he has but considering how standard he played the last hand it would be hard for him to have anything worse than your hand if he fires again on a blank turn!

[AndyFatBastard]

Just shove. He's not folding a Queen or a strong draw, and the chances of him having the other jack are miniscule.

[ikilldurrr1]

FOLD PRE. Now we're here, there's no folding. I think the best way to get the money is to call and get it in on turn and hope he's overplaying a Q or tilt bluffing. Old guys in general don't really play draws aggressively but I suppose it's a small part of his range.

[Flushdraw]

I just flat the flop and try to get it in on the turn. He probably folds out Qs and draws if you ship so give him 1 more street to get his chips in. I fold pre every day of the week btw. Even when we hit a flop we like, we don't know where we stand

[AndyFatBastard]

Pre is fine IMO, but only in this kind of game. People will call really wide in the blinds and fold to cbet a lot.

[Flushdraw]

Pre is fine IMO, but only in this kind of game. People will call really wide in the blinds and fold to cbet a lot.

Yeah, really wide is J8 which is why we could be in trouble. If the flop comes 962, we probably bet when get checked to and if he calls we need to fire a pretty big barrel on the turn. Would much prefer to play 42s than J2s pre. I just muck and wait for a better spot, but Arazi is a pretty good post flop player and not afraid to 3 barrel bluff so he has it in his arsenal anyway

[AndyFatBastard]

Yeah, really wide is J8 which is why we could be in trouble. If the flop comes 962, we probably bet when get checked to and if he calls we need to fire a pretty big barrel on the turn. Would much prefer to play 42s than J2s pre. I just muck and wait for a better spot, but Arazi is a pretty good post flop player and not afraid to 3 barrel bluff so he has it in his arsenal anyway

Yeah you need to be confident in your postflop play, reads, villian stupidity etc etc. In short, in this game it's good, assuming you have > 0.5 brains.

[Arazi]

Yeah you need to be confident in your postflop play, reads, villian stupidity etc etc. In short, in this game it's good, assuming you have > 0.5 brains.

Yeah basically I'd chipped up to 80k from 35k by raising and c'betting on my 2 earlier tables but reading people and assigning hands in this game was really difficult as the standard was so mixed. I'd just been chatting to Westlife about this at the previous table.
I dont have a problem as such with preflop as basically I was stealing and am ok with my postflop play but as Tony said the problem is I've now flopped what looks to be a monster but I have no idea where I was in the hand and have no history with the villian.

I flatted, basically to try to get it in on the turn.
An offsuit 6 came down on the turn and Villian bet 25K, I really didnt feel good about it but shoved and was relieved that I didnt get snapped but rather villian started shaking his head before calling me with KJ :-)

I guess its kinda easy to say that once that flop came down that I had to get it in and thats what I was consoling myself with immediately afterwards but he played the hand exactly like a better J would play it so maybe I could have folded the Turn. He showed maximum strenght and I gave him no respect at all.

[ghostface]

Super slow roll by him

[Arazi]

Super slow roll by him

Ye haha he said something about being afraid that I might have Queens before calling, ah he wasn't too long really.

On another point this was a brilliantly novel tournament, hugely enjoyable and very well ran for the buy-in(s) involved.

[smurph]

Ok, no history of note, it's the last level of day two and I've just come to the table. Smurf was there for a few hands before she busted unluckily and while welcoming me to the table said I was in the seat of death. There must have been plenty of action @ the table as the majority of players were above the average of 70k. I've been at table for a round and taken down one set of blinds and also played my BB in the Smurf hand, so quiet enough.
Villian is guy in his 50's who's just lost a hand where he raised X3 utg with 99 and called a shove for 20k and lost a race.
1200/2400 300 ante 8 handed
Folded to me in the cutoff and I open J2ss to 5100, BB calls. I'm playing a little over 80k and he just about covers.
Flop is QJJ with 2 diamonds
He checks, I c'bet 6300 and he raises to 16300. How do we play the hand from here?

Hi
Actually i didn't say that to you. I welcomed you to the table and said that you were going to enjoy your seat. The guy to your left, was pretty much a lunatic player, and started the day off with 90K+ down to 20K back up, and as you saw by my hand with him he was not afraid of getting his chips into the pot. I reckoned that you would have gotten his chips... you actually said to me "why is this the seat of death"...

[Arazi]

lost in translation Smurf, my mistake
I could have had yours and his in your KO hand as I would have turned the nuts if I'd still been there for the turn.

[AndyFatBastard]

I guess its kinda easy to say that once that flop came down that I had to get it in and thats what I was consoling myself with immediately afterwards but he played the hand exactly like a better J would play it so maybe I could have folded the Turn. He showed maximum strenght and I gave him no respect at all.

I'll happily admit that you need to make hero folds in tournament poker, but I don't think this was the right spot for one.

[Ziggin&Zaggin]

I like the postplay, it shows ambition to say the least. But if you raise with this and get this flop. Like what do you want from J2 on jj flop. You rasied with it now you get a great connection. get em in. Just ul I guess he has a kj

[Daragh999]

Think you played it fine, open is fine as well but it is usally better to know how the blinds play before doing it this wide.

[Closed_Account]

Yeah pre is fine, nice to soooted at least saying that would prob be struggling to muck the j2o here, calling flop and getting in on turn or raising flop is fine, once you never try and muck your hand.

[Hectorjelly]

You played it fine, you would need to know the player really well to weight his range strongly enough to fold. Pre, in this sort of situation your image & opponents are more important than your exact bluffing range.

[Caf]

If I take villain's line, I've got you crushed 100% of the time, you would literally never be in front...just saying is all.

[siucra1]

Ye haha he said something about being afraid that I might have Queens before calling, ah he wasn't too long really.

On another point this was a brilliantly novel tournament, hugely enjoyable and very well ran for the buy-in(s) involved.

That was me in the hand, i thought you were raising very light,i was going to reraise you pre,but did not want to lose you,also i dont like playing to many pots out of pos. mabey i played the hand very wrong thats ok,still learning at 50. [i have played with you twice before]must get more lessons off my son stephen mclean.

[Arazi]

Hey,
Not at all you played the hand perfectly IMO, well done, I just wasn't 100% sure if I did.
Smurf told me this evening that it was Stephens Dad who I lost the hand to.
I see you're still in there too. Best of luck to you tomorrow.

[Winning!]

Without good reads on the players behind having been at the table only one orbit I might dump it pre. Would want to be somewhat confident in the passive nature of players behind before I start opening this light.

As played I'm never folding postflop so calling down > shoving.

Thoughts??

Solid first post.

[Wombatman]

Im with Winning on his first point.

Post play is grand. Pre is questionable?
What was your thought process when you raised? You stole the blinds already and defended. Obviously active.
So you look down at j2ss.
What hands do you dump here?
What types of players were on the button and in the blinds? Hard to know being at the table one orbit.
What about the stacks? It was stated already that people are more likely to splash around with bigger stacks. Combine this with you being obv agro and your steal is more likely to fail. Maybe you plan is set up to exploit weak post flop players but hard to know this with no history of note.

If you look down a see suited cards and raise every time in this spot, combined with legit raising hands, you will be raising about 40% of hands. I assume you will be doing similar on the button. Not too soon before you are pinned. Unless you decision to raise is based on a lot more than just your holding (dont know you so not suggesting it is or isnt).

I have no problem with raising here with ATC as long as other factors support the argument to steal, like your image, stacks, table dynamics etc, or the opportunity to exploit weakness post flop.
The closer we get to ATC, and j2s is pretty close, the more the other factors have to be in clearly your favour.

[Arazi]

Im with Winning on his first point.

Post play is grand. Pre is questionable?
What was your thought process when you raised? You stole the blinds already and defended. Obviously active.
So you look down at j2ss.
What hands do you dump here?
What types of players were on the button and in the blinds? Hard to know being at the table one orbit.
What about the stacks? It was stated already that people are more likely to splash around with bigger stacks. Combine this with you being obv agro and your steal is more likely to fail. Maybe you plan is set up to exploit weak post flop players but hard to know this with no history of note.

If you look down a see suited cards and raise every time in this spot, combined with legit raising hands, you will be raising about 40% of hands. I assume you will be doing similar on the button. Not too soon before you are pinned. Unless you decision to raise is based on a lot more than just your holding (dont know you so not suggesting it is or isnt).

I have no problem with raising here with ATC as long as other factors support the argument to steal, like your image, stacks, table dynamics etc, or the opportunity to exploit weakness post flop.
The closer we get to ATC, and j2s is pretty close, the more the other factors have to be in clearly your favour.

Hi,

I understand all that but good points all well made nonetheless.
I'd disagree that I'd been active at this table and I'd got rid of some of my lower denomination chips before I moved table too as this can be a bit of a giveaway.
The 3 stacks behind were all above average (I had 35 BB's, Button about 70 and both blinds about the same as me). Button had folded his BB to a shove 2 hands earlier without looking at them (I kid you not), SB had yet to play a hand and BB to the best of my knowledge had played just one. So basically I was raising here with a very wide range and J2ss was close to the bottom of that but wide all the same, not quite any two but on limited info it was a spot ripe for picking (especially from the CO, I'd be tighter from the button than the CO).
So to answer your question my thought process was basically "There's 6300 in the middle, I'll have that ty very much".
TBH and this only came back to me when the villian posted in this thread I remember thinking when the action was on him that he looked weak and was considering to make a loose call or not (as it turns out he was probably considering if he'd raise or not) - if he raised me here I could well have shoved based purely on this read.

[Arazi]

As played I'm never folding postflop so calling down > shoving.
.

I think that given the draws on that board shoving > calling down, just about.


I'm not convinced about never folding the hand thou. I guess against an unknown in this tournament I probably have to never fold but CAF's post holds true for most good players.

[Winning!]

I think that given the draws on that board shoving > calling down, just about.


I'm not convinced about never folding the hand thou. I guess against an unknown in this tournament I probably have to never fold but CAF's post holds true for most good players.

Thing is BB may not be good, and readless in a game like this I would be inclined to make that a tentative first assumption. He also just lost 20k last hand, and according to your read he called out of the blinds pretty light, which can point to some small degree of tilt, and a higher likelihood of being played back at postflop. This coupled with the fact that it's pretty tough to have the case Jack means I mostly just call down, allowing him to bluff or spazz with worse.

Also what I meant was I'd never fold vs a random here, but you seem to have a read on villain so taking the passive route and observing his reactions on every street may make call/fold decisions on future streets easier when you will be better able to gauge his hand strength. Shoving now only serves to force out draws and get called by better really.