Give up or fire?

[Moneymaker]

Hand from the the 40JP game last night which is bugging me.

Ghostface Ste is the villain.

Blinds 400/800, i've got around 24k, Ste covers comfortably.

It's early in the final table, still 9 handed. We've been on seperate tables all night but we've played before in bits and pieces. No major history that I can recall.

Ste makes it 2k in LP, I 3bet from the CO with ATo to 6.2k.

Ste tanks for a good minute, looks like he's dwelling between shoving or folding then calls, which surprised me. He says 'This is really bad by the way.' to which I reply 'I didn't expect that to be honest.'

Flop comes J97r. I've got about 16-17k and the pot is around 14k. Ste checks.

Do we give up or bet and if so how much?

What do we think of the pre-flop play?

[NuckChorris]

Shove, he's a donkey with 56 sooted or similar.

SPOILER

Joking, but I shove or check and re-evaluate on turn. If you check then I:
- Fold to a bet on a blank turn.
- Call if A or 8 obv and maybe call if a 10 or pairs the board.

This is a tricky spot so shoving gives us a very decent chance at taking it down (and outs if behind) and puts the pressure onto him. Don't like betting as he'll shove so many hands and we can't really call.

[blaaaaaaah]

Make your 3bet smaller to like 5,200. As played I'd shove the flop. If he told you while you are in the hand 'this is bad call' he prob has medium strength hand and I'd probably believe he is telling the truth when saying it. Unless he flopped bottom set your not in too bad shape v anything he tank calls with like 89sooted for example. I could go into ranges and more detail but it's enough info to shove the flop!

[Zod]

Shove, he's calling pre with A6.

[Moneymaker]

Make your 3bet smaller to like 5,200. As played I'd shove the flop. If he told you while you are in the hand 'this is bad call' he prob has medium strength hand and I'd probably believe he is telling the truth when saying it. Unless he flopped bottom set your not in too bad shape v anything he tank calls with like 89sooted for example. I could go into ranges and more detail but it's enough info to shove the flop!

Yeah his comment seemed pretty genuine. As was my surprise when he called.

[Wombatman]

Make it 8k. Looks stronger than a shove just in case he wants to be a hero with A7 or 44.

[Solskjaer]

Shove pre

[Winning!]

3b/fold much smaller pre. Would shove with around 20BBs or less, 30BB is too much.

As played b/f flop ~6k is probably your best line. After his speech I would estimate there are a LOT of mid-PP's in his range here (maybe AJ/AQ too), as it's hard to have a shove/fold decision preflop with much else.

The problem is you didn't think this through in advance. Before you make your decision preflop you should always ask yourself "if I 3bet to X size, roughly what will the pot size be on the flop, and how much will I have left?" i.e. "can I b/f or will any bet be pot commiting..?" These are very important considerations for late tournament play where stacks are usually quite shallow, allowing less margin for error on future streets.

[ghostface]

lol I play bad/good

[Winning!]

Wug ste..? 77?

[peterswellman]

Why are we three-betting? Bluff or for value? What are we doing if he four bets?

The problem here is the 3-bet sizing and not being very stack aware imo.

[Winning!]

Why are we three-betting?. Bluff or for value?

We don't know whether we are ahead or behind, but we have a strong hand, and want control of the pot. Depending how he reacts to our 3bet we can find out a lot more about the strength of his hand.

What are we doing if he four bets?

Folding. He never 4bets worse hands unless it's a complete bluff. And with these stacks, it never will be.

[IPB Champ]

Shove he calls 3bets OOP with 5 high nearly all the time

[sligoboi]

Shove he calls 3bets OOP with 5 high nearly all the time

So you're saying we're ahead of his range?

[Moneymaker]

The problem is you didn't think this through in advance. Before you make your decision preflop you should always ask yourself "if I 3bet to X size, roughly what will the pot size be on the flop, and how much will I have left?" i.e. "can I b/f or will any bet be pot commiting..?" These are very important considerations for late tournament play where stacks are usually quite shallow, allowing less margin for error on future streets.

I did think it through. My 3bet was too large though, definitely.

Guys opens and has a very wide opening range, 3bet with a A blocker and expect to win a large amount of the time. Fold if he 4bets, apply max pressure on the flop as its clear he doesn't have a monster and will be peeling with a reasonably wide range.

Aren't we committed if I bet 8k and he jams? 30k in there, I have less then 10 back with an over and gutshot?

[IPB Champ]

So you're saying we're ahead of his range?

He'd need binoculars to see us

[Wombatman]

I did think it through. My 3bet was too large though, definitely.

Guys opens and has a very wide opening range, 3bet with a A blocker and expect to win a large amount of the time. Fold if he 4bets, apply max pressure on the flop as its clear he doesn't have a monster and will be peeling with a reasonably wide range.

Aren't we committed if I bet 8k and he jams? 30k in there, I have less then 10 back with an over and gutshot?

Once we bet 8k we never going away.

[IPB Champ]

I did think it through. My 3bet was too large though, definitely.

Guys opens and has a very wide opening range, 3bet with a A blocker and expect to win a large amount of the time. Fold if he 4bets, apply max pressure on the flop as its clear he doesn't have a monster and will be peeling with a reasonably wide range.

Aren't we committed if I bet 8k and he jams? 30k in there, I have less then 10 back with an over and gutshot?

Any hand I'm repopping I'm making it 4.5k-5.5k max. If he flats I'm shoving all flops if checked to be honest even if i hit it hard. Put him to the decision yo.

Ste is a very good player and well capable of tarping with hands, he knows his image and how to use it. Once i make my mind up to 3bet I'm going to war and as Tony G says "you're qualified" .

[ghostface]

Just to add other reasons as to why I flat that might have an influence on the hand.

I have 65k+ and easily 2nd in chips at the table, I dont particularly want to flip/race (if that was the case) with one of the only decent players at the table. Standard in this game is awful and I dont want to 4 bet bluff and lose a pretty big pot when there are uberfish around.

There were only 3 good players on table IMO Seat 1 - Mickste, Seat 2 - Me () and Seat 3 Moneymaker and to do a chunk of change to him would be pretty bad here to give him a stack

[poprock]

Villain has jj

[peterswellman]

We don't know whether we are ahead or behind, but we have a strong hand, and want control of the pot. Depending how he reacts to our 3bet we can find out a lot more about the strength of his hand.



Folding. He never 4bets worse hands unless it's a complete bluff. And with these stacks, it never will be.

I knew we we're folding but I just wanted the Hero to say it.

We have position, we can flat and play a pot in position against a laggy villian. That controls the size of the pot imo and it saves us having to three-bet fold a 1/4 of our stack if we get four bet. We have a pretty decent hand. I really don't know if we're awful deep to go three bet folding. 30 bb's is the actual limit I will three-bet fold because if we have any less we're getting such a good price to call if we get four-bet shoved on.

With the sizing, we are just left with just over a PSB and are without a pair. I personally don't like it.

[Winning!]

We have position, we can flat and play a pot in position against a laggy villian. That controls the size of the pot imo and it saves us having to three-bet fold a 1/4 of our stack if we get four bet. We have a pretty decent hand. I really don't know if we're awful deep to go three bet folding. 30 bb's is the actual limit I will three-bet fold because if we have any less we're getting such a good price to call if we get four-bet shoved on.

With the sizing, we are just left with just over a PSB and are without a pair. I personally don't like it.

I much prefer 3betting to flatting. We very well may have the best hand right now, but w/o initiative it's much easier for us to be taken off it postflop. If we have the worst of it we can still win being the aggressor, or get away cheap pre if we're behind and villain turns his hand face up by 4betting.

As for the 3bet, the pot will only be 10k OTF if we 3bet smaller, as mentioned previously hero's 3bet was far too big. If we make it ~4.5k it leaves us ~20k behind and a bit of room, having only invested like 16% of our stack.

[cardshark202]

calling a 3b with anything that's going to fold any flop is pretty terrible to be honest. (given stack sizes obv)

[ghostface]

calling a 3b with anything that's going to fold any flop is pretty terrible to be honest. (given stack sizes obv)

This I think sums it up and I knew it at the time but still did it

[peterswellman]

I much prefer 3betting to flatting. We very well may have the best hand right now, but w/o initiative it's much easier for us to be taken off it postflop. If we have the worst of it we can still win being the aggressor, or get away cheap pre if we're behind and villain turns his hand face up by 4betting.

As for the 3bet, the pot will only be 10k OTF if we 3bet smaller, as mentioned previously hero's 3bet was far too big. If we make it ~4.5k it leaves us ~20k behind and a bit of room, having only invested like 16% of our stack.

Given that we have only 30bb I don't but maybe it's just me. We have position, the pot is smaller, we have a reasonably strong hand. We have an ace blocker is really the only positive for three betting especially if we know he's going to flat our three bets wide.

[Wesley Harms]

This I think sums it up and I knew it at the time but still did it

But you knew Moneymaker was a weak tight fish who would give up if he didn't smash the flop. Wp imo

[Moneymaker]

But you knew Moneymaker was a weak tight fish who would give up if he didn't smash the flop. Wp imo

Only I didn't.

I'd played too passively in spots too often before, felt I had to grow a pair and put the pressure on, and if called '8 please dealer!'.

I shoved, Ste tank called with AJ and held. Wp gg.

My 3bet size was terrible(knew this fairly quickly) but I think shoving is the only option on the flop once we get there. Obv a smaller 3bet would open up more options. Fwiw I think 3betting is better then calling here.

Live and learn, thanks folks.

And lol @ calling me a good player. I'm fucking dreadful.

[Wesley Harms]

So after angleshooting you pre with the AJ he slowrollled you on the flop. Dirty

[peterswellman]

So he never folds anything better than we have when we three-bet this is purely as a bluff. Would we not be better 3-betting suited connectors or hands like 97 suited and stuff. At least they flop with a reasonable equity against his flatting range?

[Winning!]

Yeah having been called by AJ you should adjust your future 3betting range slightly but it would still be fairly well merged to include AT. If your 3bets start getting even less respect you could then polarise to nuts/small-connectors and flat with some strong/medium hands.

Even if villain never folds better, he won't connect very often so it doesn't matter too much that we got caught w AT here.

[ghostface]

I didnt really tank call. I was never folding on that flop just wanted to talk bollox for a while

[Moneymaker]

I didnt really tank call. I was never folding on that flop just wanted to talk bollox for a while

Yeah I was surprised you took that long. Can't fold there ever.

Wd on scooping it btw.

fish.

[ghostface]

Yeah I was surprised you took that long. Can't fold there ever.

Wd on scooping it btw.

fish.

I busted 5th, my top 2 no good vs a riveted set all in pre. I assume mickste or the chap with the massive tank at other end of table won

[Moneymaker]

I busted 5th, my top 2 no good vs a riveted set all in pre. I assume mickste or the chap with the massive tank at other end of table won

Oh, I saw on the JP results 'Ste' was listed as 1st. Guess that was MickSte.