I thought I liked this flop - UKIPT hand

[Arazi]

UKIPT 1500 event
8 handed - Blinds 75/150
Hero is UTG (playing 20K) with AKo and makes it 325 to go
UTG+1 is Max Silver (12K) who won UKIPT Dublin last year and seems VV competent
UTG+3 is George McKeever(22K) and BB is a young British supersat qualifer (15K).

Anyway Max calls as does UTG+2 and apart from the SB we go 7 handed to a flop (2350)
KKQ rainbow
Checked to me, I check, Max bets 1050, George calls as does BB.
There must be draws out there now plus almost definitely the case King.
I make it 3725, Max flats and George raises to 12K, BB folds, action is back on me...

[lowkicker]

UKIPT 1500 event
8 handed - Blinds 75/150
Hero is UTG (playing 20K) with AKo and makes it 325 to go
UTG+1 is Max Silver (12K) who won UKIPT Dublin last year and seems VV competent
UTG+3 is George McKeever(22K) and BB is a young British supersat qualifer (15K).

Anyway Max calls as does UTG+2 and apart from the SB we go 7 handed to a flop (2350)
KKQ rainbow
Checked to me, I check, Max bets 1050, George calls as does BB.
There must be draws out there now plus almost definitely the case King.
I make it 3725, Max flats and George raises to 12K, BB folds, action is back on me...

You're never getting away from this, it's very difficult to put anybody on QQ, so KQ does seem likely given the 4 bet, but even still I'd be more inclined to put George on a weaker K or less likely 10J

[bops]

firstly, i'd lead the flop

i suppose it's QQ, I don't think he would do that with KJ, with the structure of that game i guess i'd fold

lol i'm a nit

[nicnicnic]

bops is a nit,

given the action I doubt were ever good, I'm folding.

[Bubbleking]

Folding

[Gowl]

you could be ahead, but I think I fold. McKeever could conceivably have KJ, but with all the factors including Silver behind, I just fold and wait for a better spot.

[TommyGunne]

You need to make it more pf.

Checking flop is real bad.

Checkraising flop is worse.

[thechamp87]

Not betting the flop is pretty bad.

[Arazi]

You need to make it more pf.

Checking flop is real bad.

Checkraising flop is worse.

Pre is totally standard.

Why is checking the flop real bad? I can lead it but I'm pretty sure that checking this into 6 players is fine when we're almost 150 BB's deep.

I never intended to Check Raise it but when it came back to me with 3 players still in the pot I think CR'ing is correct - why would I now flat it OOP?
In this instance saying my CR is "worse than real bad" is LOL

[dannydiamond]

Ship the loots, fold me bollix.

[cardshark202]

Pre is totally standard.

Why is checking the flop real bad? I can lead it but I'm pretty sure that checking this into 6 players is fine when we're almost 150 BB's deep.

I never intended to Check Raise it but when it came back to me with 3 players still in the pot I think CR'ing is correct - why would I now flat it OOP?
In this instance saying my CR is "worse than real bad" is LOL

Your cr is pretty damn poor it has to be said.
I'm very confused as to why you would check the flop, when someone takes this line or check-calling as the pfr and then getting very interested in the hand its always superobvious they are nutted. You might as well show the table your hand.

Checking the flop was the massive error here.

Gross spot anyway and I guess you have to fold now as disgusting as it is to fold top trips.

[AKQJ10]

What Reggie said, and loling at the people telling you your mistakes in the hand is hardly the best way to learn how not to butcher AK on KKQ.

[TommyGunne]

Pre is totally standard.

Why is checking the flop real bad? I can lead it but I'm pretty sure that checking this into 6 players is fine when we're almost 150 BB's deep.

I never intended to Check Raise it but when it came back to me with 3 players still in the pot I think CR'ing is correct - why would I now flat it OOP?
In this instance saying my CR is "worse than real bad" is LOL

Pre is not totally standard. I'm usually the one arguing for smaller raise sizes, but here, with ave stack about 100bb, and you having 150bb eff in places, you need to make it bigger oop. Not just with this hand, but from UTG this deep.

Checkraising is bad if you don't know what you are going to do to a ship/committing raise. What do you plan to get value from? Your hand looks real big after checkraising a pretty dry board 7 way after you open UTG. I would defo prefer to be more polarised than AK here. Like if you cr it here, and are not happy shipping it in over a 3b, then your c/r seems pretty bad. AK is surely the very very bottom of your value range here, and I'd argue that its too thin. I'd also argue that cr is bad as a line simply because c/raising AK here might be too thin. Not like you are going to stack KJ or anything.

So yes, craising is worse than checking cos, once you check, calling is better than c/raising. Thus the subset of c/raising is worse than the set of checking imo.

I think betting is better than c/c cos I think c/c reps a similar strength range of hands than betting (only slightly weaker.) Also, I think peoples betting ranges on this flop/most turns will be very similar to their calling/raising ranges (ie i think people bluff very very little at this 7 way). I think then that as betting allows you to keep the lead its generally a better line. Think it enables you to extract more value over 3 streets. I don't hate c/c too much tbh, but think betting is definitely better. C/c can be ok with a few stabby guys behind (but its live, people are stations, and its 7 handed), but a c/c line on this flop followed by any further action from you looks so strong imo.

Much more clearcut in my view is that c/raising is bad.

[Carl_Morrissey]

If villain here has KQ or QQ why 4 bet so big? Line doesn't really tell a consistent story to the nuts. KQ seems a little more likely as I don't see you being flatted all too often with QQ, possible though. I stick the loots in.

[Arazi]

What Reggie said, and loling at the people telling you your mistakes in the hand is hardly the best way to learn how not to butcher AK on KKQ.

LOLing @ worse than real bad which is BS to be perfectly honest

[Caf]

LOLing @ worse than real bad which is BS to be perfectly honest

Can you explain why you checked the flop and why it's a good idea to do it?

[Arazi]

Can you explain why you checked the flop and why it's a good idea to do it?

Betting here on this flop as the PFR with 6 players to act behind me is also very strong and will fold out most hands especially those directly after me without K's as there are players to act behind and those closer to the BB are most probably only calling PF for value. Plus there has to be a 30% plus chance that case King was out there. My line in that instance was going to be CC, CR turn and lead most rivers.
Obviously betting here is perfectly fine but my line is more risky but also OK imo and has a better chance of extracting more value off a worse King plus it can win a big pot from 10 J which might otherise fold to a lead.

[Fuzzy Logic]

Plus there has to be a 30% plus chance that case King was out there.

nope

[Arazi]

nope

Yep although probably higher, 12/47 is 25%+ and seeing as they called pre I think we can make that into 30%+ at least, we just dont want it to be with a Q

[Mellor]

You're never getting away from this, it's very difficult to put anybody on QQ, so KQ does seem likely given the 4 bet, but even still I'd be more inclined to put George on a weaker K or less likely 10J

I don't think he ever has JT.
Look st his action, he flat calls a bet, Hero raises after two caller, OR flats and George raises. That's one of the the strongest looking 3bets I can imagine.

If villain here has KQ or QQ why 4 bet so big? Line doesn't really tell a consistent story to the nuts. KQ seems a little more likely as I don't see you being flatted all too often with QQ, possible though. I stick the loots in.

It wasn't really that big of a 3bet to be honest. 7 players to the flop, two calls to the bet and a caller to the raise means the pot is pretty big. 12k is c.2/3 of a pot sized bet

KQ imo

LOLing @ worse than real bad which is BS to be perfectly honest

I thought Tommy's follow up post did a pretty god job of explaining how it was bad.

It's pretty funny you are arguing the min-raise type open with TG of all people.
This isn't a shallow stack STT, the table is 100-150 BBs deep, with a decent structure. Does the fact that your UTG open (the strongest position) got 7 players to the flop of suggest that maybe you should of bet more?

I'm not sure why you are failing to beven consider that checking is bad. You are the pfr, what do you think they precieve your range as? Given that there were 7 players, its almost certain that somebody holds a king. Do you not see how checking and calling, and then trying to get the loot in on later streets makes you hand a little transparent.
Making a standard c-bet is much less obvious.
That is why checking is bad.

Once you feint weakness by checking, it's the sensible thing to contine the illusion. Flat call and take a turn.
By raising, in the face of such strength, your are pretty much announcing what you were doing by checking. This is why the CR is worse than the check to begin with.

The fact that you should fold to a 3 bet now proves raising was bad. It's pretty much turning top trips into a bluff. Like, if your raise was call, did you think you could win at showdown unimproved?

[Fuzzy Logic]

Yep although probably higher, 12/47 is 25%+ and seeing as they called pre I think we can make that into 30%+ at least, we just dont want it to be with a Q

The odds of a K being dealt are 12/47. But what combos of K is he calling with? Say average it at 5 for arguments sake (as UTG +1 will likely call less combos than BTN). so he folds all other Kx combos therefore its actually 20/47*12/47 = approx 11% chance.

[nicnicnic]

cardshark202 post on your line is succinct and should be taken on board. What hands do you think your opponents see you c/r or c/c with as the pfr

[Carl_Morrissey]

It wasn't really that big of a 3bet to be honest. 7 players to the flop, two calls to the bet and a caller to the raise means the pot is pretty big. 12k is c.2/3 of a pot sized bet

KQ imo

I realise his raise is 2/3 pot but after bet of c.1k a raise of c.3k, a bet as big as this does not feel like he has the nuts to me. FWIW I believe OP should be betting this flop pretty much 100% of the time in this spot and if for whatever reason he decided to check, I'm certainly not check raising. As played my loots go in though.

[Mellor]

The odds of a K being dealt are 12/47. But what combos of K is he calling with? Say average it at 5 for arguments sake (as UTG +1 will likely call less combos than BTN). so he folds all other Kx combos therefore its actually 20/47*12/47 = approx 11% chance.

But that's a pointless way of looking at it. I'm not even sure if its right (there were 14 cards dealt for a start), but we'll run with it.
10% is an average figure. But now that the fact that 7 players had called changes the chances of good hands being dealt.

It's not about odds anymore, its about ranges

[Arazi]

I'm not sure why you are failing to beven consider that checking is bad. You are the pfr, what do you think they precieve your range as? Given that there were 7 players, its almost certain that somebody holds a king. Do you not see how checking and calling, and then trying to get the loot in on later streets makes you hand a little transparent.
Making a standard c-bet is much less obvious.
That is why checking is bad.

Hi Mellor,
Betting here is fine obviously. Ok so I bet 1.1 on the flop and get called by the case K and/or perhaps some PP's, 10J hands (or get 6 folds which is also quite likely).
Lead for 2.4 on the turn, assuming they dont fill up on turn or river can we valuetown him again on the river? mayb but @ this level perhaps not.

Plan was to CC on flop, CR on turn (and I dont think the case K folds here) and valuetown the river into a much bigger pot. Thats why Checking is not bad. It maynot by standard but its not bad imo.
The CR wasn't planned but rather was a function of the way the hand played out.

[Arazi]

cardshark202 post on your line is succinct and should be taken on board. What hands do you think your opponents see you c/r or c/c with as the pfr

Hi nicnic/cardshark,

OK here's how the scenario most likely plays out if we bet:
We lead for 1K, Max Flats, George makes it 4K and its folded back to us.
What do we do now? Because I'd find it very hard to fold here.

[Mellor]

Hi Mellor,
Betting here is fine obviously. Ok so I bet 1.1 on the flop and get called by the case K and/or perhaps some PP's, 10J hands (or get 6 folds which is also quite likely).
Lead for 2.4 on the turn, assuming they dont fill up on turn or river can we valuetown him again on the river? mayb but @ this level perhaps not.

Plan was to CC on flop, CR on turn (and I dont think the case K folds here) and valuetown the river into a much bigger pot. Thats why Checking is not bad. It maynot by standard but its not bad imo.
The CR wasn't planned but rather was a function of the way the hand played out.

You are up against a different range of cards when you lead compared to when you CR. You are basically playing a bigger pot where you have less equity when you CR, you can't see why that might be bad?

You didn't answer my question, what range do you think they put you on when you CR, also what is there range do you think they continue with?

[smoothcall]

If you check you have to continue your passive plan, check raising is terrible. It basically shows such strength and folds out all hands you can get value from, provided there competent. and thats probably why you checked, because your terrified of everyone folding.

ok onto your specific master plan of check call, check raise and value river. what hands are going to play like this when you check call the flop? most people aren't going to bluff into this many players, so his range is probably strong enough. But when you check call it shows strength, so with a Q he's going to check back the turn most of the time as your hand is rarely a draw. With a K he might bet for value but when you raise your hand looks so strong, so he'll prob only call and maybe fold river.

Basically as strong as your hand is ir's not easy to win a big pot with, I much prefer betting the flop though.

[Arazi]

You are up against a different range of cards when you lead compared to when you CR. You are basically playing a bigger pot where you have less equity when you CR, you can't see why that might be bad?

You didn't answer my question, what range do you think they put you on when you CR, also what is there range do you think they continue with?

Sorry didnt intentionally not answer you.

Obviously I've got a King (most prob AK) or am repping one once only or have QQ - but the case King usually wont fold. As I said it wasn't the original plan to CR it was a function of how the pot played out - however if the case King now calls me and we go to a turn we've already swelled the pot to a size that leading on the flop and turn would most probably have achieved.

[Mellor]

So they put you on AK, KQ or QQ, (KJ isn't in your UTG open range)
How can you expect them to continue with worse hands???

You can't just say "sure the case king won't fold"

[Arazi]

So they put you on AK, KQ or QQ, (KJ isn't in your UTG open range)
How can you expect them to continue with worse hands???

You can't just say "sure the case king won't fold"

I said usually wont fold and they usually wont unless its with complete shit so I would actually expect them to continue with worse hands and dependent on which of the villians it was I'd expect to have a good chance to valuetown at least once more. Honestly, I dont think checking into 6 hands is anywhere as bad as you're saying here.

[Carl_Morrissey]

Outcome anyway?

[Arazi]

OK I wanted to fold it so bad. I didnt think George would effectively shove here with KQ and didnt think he'd flat such a small raise pre behind 2 callers with QQ so thought he actually could have a KJ type hand. I was really worried about Max having 1/3 of his stack in but if George had the King then Max had to have QQ or worse and if he had QQ I could effectively have a similar stack by winning a sidepot with George as I'd have by folding plus I could spike an Ace to take the lot.
I still should be folding but someone called time and on the countdown I just stuck it in.
Max QQ
George AK

Down to 8K.

[Mellor]

You expected them to put you on AK, KQ or QQ but continue with worse hands anyway? I don't understand why you think this. These are competant players right.
Either they put you on a wider range and continue with worse, or they nail your range and fold.

[Theresa]

Yeah I agree with Mellor. You said yourself when you play it this way "I have a K obviously (prob AK)".

If its that obvious, and they are competent players do you honestly think you can play that line profitably?

[Arazi]

I think with 3 callers and therefore the pot now at 9k if one of them has a weaker King than me they are probably going to call here.
I think my line is superstrong Yes but KJ K10 hands are probably calling for 2.7 and I'm gonna try value them on latter streets. It'd be a v tough fold by them, so with 3 others in the pot I'd much rather CR now than take a turn card and rely on either Max or George to do the betting for me on the turn while also at least doubling the chances of going behind in the hand (assuming we're not already behind).

[smoothcall]

sigh

[Arazi]

Anyway thanks for your comments TG, Mellor etc etc I enjoyed them and found them interesting.

[Winning!]

Sick hand, I expect Silver to turn up with KQ/QQ a bunch here after the smooth-call. McKeever may have something like KJ, but more often one of them has you crushed and drawing to an Ace. Fold