Irish Open Hand

[peterswellman]

So this hand is from Day 2. It's very early on in the Day and i've just been moved table. To my left is Darren Rabinowitz and guy to his left seems some English guy in his 30's. Rabinowitz is an Americian pro who grinds live now. Not really following the table much and seems really busy on his Ipad. I had a bit of discussion with him and I would think he assumes i'm semi competent. I'm youngish, in a hoodie and wearing Beats.

Both guys have me comfortably covered in the hand with Rabinowitz has 40k and English guy has 60k+. I start the hand with 19k which is 19bb @ 500/1000 and this is the first orbit at new table. I had known who Rabinowitz was by goggling him after checking out the seat draw.

So it's folded round to me. I have A 2

What do we think our best line is here? I'm turn in between 3 things here. I could open folded and just wait to rip over a raise with a nice bit of fold equity. I could open for 2x and fold to any heat. Or I could just rip them in. This is a slow structure here and there is still a good bit of value in the field. e.g. My table for most of day 1, 5x was the standard open.

[peterswellman]

Folded round to me on the Button. Sorry guys. Key information.

[corkie123]

fold why waste 2 or 2,5 bb if you going to fold to push you dont have enough chips to be wasting at this stage i think but im old school .

[peterswellman]

fold why waste 2 or 2,5 bb if you going to fold to push you dont have enough chips to be wasting at this stage i think but im old school .

Nah, not old school and def an option here for sure. Cheers.

[GaryT]

So this hand is from Day 2. It's very early on in the Day and i've just been moved table. To my left is Darren Rabinowitz and guy to his left seems some English guy in his 30's. Rabinowitz is an Americian pro who grinds live now. Not really following the table much and seems really busy on his Ipad. I had a bit of discussion with him and I would think he assumes i'm semi competent. I'm youngish, in a hoodie and wearing Beats.

Both guys have me comfortably covered in the hand with Rabinowitz has 40k and English guy has 60k+. I start the hand with 19k which is 19bb @ 500/1000 and this is the first orbit at new table. I had known who Rabinowitz was by goggling him after checking out the seat draw.

So it's folded round to me. I have A 2

What do we think our best line is here? I'm turn in between 3 things here. I could open folded and just wait to rip over a raise with a nice bit of fold equity. I could open for 2x and fold to any heat. Or I could just rip them in. This is a slow structure here and there is still a good bit of value in the field. e.g. My table for most of day 1, 5x was the standard open.

Played with Darren Day 1. I would say he's very very solid. Didn't seem to get out of line at all and played TAG.

I would say he's decent but seemed a little bit lost in some deep post flop spots.

Probably a fold is optimal here. Although I say that and I'm certain I actually fold 0% of the time and just min obviously folding to any action. You will have to give up on quite a few textures without wasting a cbet also. Stuff like QT7, J96 etc etc.

Shoving is the worst option. Structure too good field too weak to make such a marginal shove.

[peterswellman]

Played with Darren Day 1. I would say he's very very solid. Didn't seem to get out of line at all and played TAG.

I would say he's decent but seemed a little bit lost in some deep post flop spots.

Probably a fold is optimal here. Although I say that and I'm certain I actually fold 0% of the time and just min obviously folding to any action. You will have to give up on quite a few textures without wasting a cbet also. Stuff like QT7, J96 etc etc.

Shoving is the worst option. Structure too good field too weak to make such a marginal shove.

I was basicially readless as to how he played at the time. I just knew who he was and he was a winning poker player.

Tbh, I don't expect to get flatted too much here. I assume i'll get ripped on quite a bit here so playing post will rarely occur.

Shoving is profitable is the only reason I mentioned it but i'd probably agree it's too much in this structure.

[GaryT]

I was basicially readless as to how he played at the time. I just knew who he was and he was a winning poker player.

Tbh, I don't expect to get flatted too much here. I assume i'll get ripped on quite a bit here so playing post will rarely occur.

Shoving is profitable is the only reason I mentioned it but i'd probably agree it's too much in this structure.

It was BB who I thought could be somebody who likes seeing flops more so than SB.

I wouldn't expect the random in the BB to know you have 19bbs. Even if he asks I still wouldn't expect him to know what difference it makes etc.

So yeah folding is perfectly fine and probably optimal. But I open and don't think it's bad at all.

[NicoSanty]

You have an M of basically 8 and A2o is a clear and profitable shove here so that's really your best option.

You could raise/call but we we're never in great shape vs a standard reshoving range and we can easily get it in vs better Ax's if we do so. With open shoving, we will often get those hands that dominate us to fold

[Daragh999]

So yeah folding is perfectly fine and probably optimal. But I open and don't think it's bad at all.

All options are open here given we have such a difficult stack to play. Folding is not 'optimal' at all though, if you feel like your against weak opponents opening and folding to 3bets is OK, raise/calling isn't great IMO. Shoving is unexploitable, profitable and you get alot of better A's to fold when they may not if you had just opened, abit in this structure it might feel pretty crap to just lump it in, its a tough spot, i would personally jam if i know both blinds are good.

[Guest]

I personally think 19bbs is a little too much to open shove tbh, I would much prefer r/f as an option, if the players are good, then they will have the ability to make a marginal call. I'm not sure how many Aces a decent player folds here, maybe a2-a6??
In a spot like this I'm not sure I have a shoving range with 19bbs, I think its only r/c or r/f.
Agreed there are hands with massive equity that r/f makes you feel sick but I do think a r/f is slightly more optimal than an open shove.

Open shoving has got to work 89% of the time to be profitable and I we're only getting a call by 12% of their range 55+,A7s+,A8o+ so seems really close but fine imo
If he raise folds, its only got to work 45% of the time to be profitable, I also included a wider reshoving range by the blinds 22+,A2s+,KTs+,QJs,A2o+,KJo+ I figure they only reshove/ 3bet about 24% of their range so seems like the r/f is more optimal to me, along with the fact its an easy fold the times sb and bb may wake up with a hand.

[GaryT]

You have an M of basically 8 and A2o is a clear and profitable shove here so that's really your best option.

You could raise/call but we we're never in great shape vs a standard reshoving range and we can easily get it in vs better Ax's if we do so. With open shoving, we will often get those hands that dominate us to fold

Would you just be open shoving everything you are not folding here? Or do you raise/fold some while raise/calling others obviously. Does this not leave our shoving range really weak and generally hard to have any sort of balance?

For instance if I was sb or bb and a young guy jams btn with 19bbs. I know that this almost never a premium and majority of the time will be a weak Ax (less than A9 I'd say), small pair or sometype of weakish broadway.

All options are open here given we have such a difficult stack to play. Folding is not 'optimal' at all though, if you feel like your against weak opponents opening and folding to 3bets is OK, raise/calling isn't great IMO. Shoving is unexploitable, profitable and you get alot of better A's to fold when they may not if you had just opened, abit in this structure it might feel pretty crap to just lump it in, its a tough spot, i would personally jam if i know both blinds are good.

I was expecting the BB to be bad. 30s English guy I could instantly picture some of them from the weekeend. Didn't expect him to like folding pre much especially when he has heaps of chips.

Not trying to come across defensive to you and Nick if it sounds like that btw just genuinely curious.



Also to OP I don't know why you expect to get ripped on? Especially for the SB. Would personally hate to be shoving 40bbs from the SB with a BB that covers behind. Also majority of standard 30s English guys I'd presume aren't going to shove into a 20bb stack that wide. These are just my assumptions of randoms could be wrong obviously

[Winning!]

Having Rabinowitz on your direct left is def gonna restrict your late-pos stealing opportunities in future orbits so I take this spot pretty happily. High-var but w/e, r/anything feels dirty and I def don't like folding Ax OTB 20bb deep.

[Nuttkickker]

don't agree with some that this is a profitable shove all depends on the calling ranges but looks pretty marginal at best. It would be profitable if both blinds have a really tight calling range here and your image is solid but as its such a good structured tournament i'd say its best to fold. Raise folding is an option but again depend on how likely the blinds are to 3-bet.

[newbie2]

I like the 2X 2.25X open and fold to any heat option. It's still early days in day 2 and the table is still kinda fresh. I'm not sure anybody wants to get too fruity too soon, so they're not going to be 3 betting light. Take the opportunity to get a couple of chips.
Yeah you could shove, but if called - you're crushed.

[Daragh999]

don't agree with some that this is a profitable shove all depends on the calling ranges but looks pretty marginal at best. It would be profitable if both blinds have a really tight calling range here and your image is solid but as its such a good structured tournament i'd say its best to fold. Raise folding is an option but again depend on how likely the blinds are to 3-bet.

Its a nash shove meaning its profitable no matter what your opponents calling ranges are. The problem with this situation is that we have no idea whether opening/folding will show a profit because of the limited info on the blinds. As a result folding can be considered but I personally wouldn't as decent spots with this stack can be hard to come by, and on a tough table it can become a trivial spot to take your few % edge.

The most interesting opinion I heard about this hand was from doke who said he would consider limping, let the flood gates open

[peterswellman]

The most interesting opinion I heard about this hand was from doke who said he would consider limping, let the flood gates open

Hmmmm. Are we say Limp/Shoving? Limp/Calling? Limp/Folding?

I again can't decide what the hell i'd do in that case. Sure we probably have the best hand but our hand is very weak and what flops are we gonna like? Probably Ax where we should be good or boards where we flop a straight?

Love to hear Dokes thoughts on this spot.

Ran this by Johan Meyer also and a few other good players i'm friends with and I got 3 very different answers by almost everyone. Johan suggested r/f for blocker reasons.

[Guest]

Its a nash shove meaning its profitable no matter what your opponents calling ranges are. The problem with this situation is that we have no idea whether opening/folding will show a profit because of the limited info on the blinds. As a result folding can be considered but I personally wouldn't as decent spots with this stack can be hard to come by, and on a tough table it can become a trivial spot to take your few % edge.

The most interesting opinion I heard about this hand was from doke who said he would consider limping, let the flood gates open

I remember talking to Doke a few years ago in Galway we were both on the feature table and he limped EP off a shallow enough stack, someone raised and he folded. I remember asking him at the time, what did you have, I'm nearly sure it was with like Q10s, QJs or something like that.
I obviously asked why, he told me in detail why but I believe the general goal was to confuse his opponents basically into levelling themselves with a hand they'd standardly open with, play them post flop etc. Also a really good player said to me recently, when a good player does something totally strange and not "standard" they usually have it, so maybe there is merit.

Just to say, I still think r/f is best

[doke]

Ran this by Johan Meyer also and a few other good players i'm friends with and I got 3 very different answers by almost everyone. Johan suggested r/f for blocker reasons.

That's fine if Ax is a big part of the reshoving range, but if you have a loose cannon who will reshove all broadways and a range of suited conns the ace blocker doesn't add much to your steal equity (assuming you are raise folding).

To clarify my comment to Daragh, I would consider limping at this specific stack size (with a bit less I just shove always and a bit more I r/f, against very specific opponents. Some opponents will actually play back with a smaller range to a limp (fearing a monster). Others will raise fold to a reshove. If there is are (combination of) these types of opponents behind, then I think limping might be the most profitable option. Most of the time we get headsup in position against the bb who has random junk and is possibly suspicious we have limped a monster. We are only putting one big blind into a pot of more than 3 bigs so we only need to win 30% of the time. This is obviously a very profitable situation for us. Depending on the flop and our opponent(s) tendencies we can either try to get to a showdown cheap or exert some pressure with small bets into a small pot. Headsup with these stacks limping is the Nash equilibrium, so it will often be the most profitable play three handed.

I remember the hand Dave Brady mentioned from our UKIPT feature table. My reason for limping was there were predominantly two different types of players at the table
(1) "Traditional" players who would regard an early position limp from a player (they perceived to be) as tight as me as deeply suspicious (weighted towards monsters).
(2) More action players (of which Dave was one) who might try to isolate me but would find it hard to call a limp reshove.

I felt group (1) would play back with a range of hands no wider (possibly even less wide) than if I raised, so I could happily limp fold to them (and save myself the extra big blind over raise folding), while I had a lot of fold equity on the limp reshove against group (2). Another key factor was the two blinds in the hand were very straightforward post flop (so I felt they would check fold when they missed)

When you have twenty big blinds, every one of them is precious so you should always be looking for ways to get more value (in equity terms) for them.

[Arazi]

That's fine if Ax is a big part of the reshoving range, but if you have a loose cannon who will reshove all broadways and a range of suited conns the ace blocker doesn't add much to your steal equity (assuming you are raise folding).

To clarify my comment to Daragh, I would consider limping at this specific stack size (with a bit less I just shove always and a bit more I r/f, against very specific opponents. Some opponents will actually play back with a smaller range to a limp (fearing a monster). Others will raise fold to a reshove. If there is are (combination of) these types of opponents behind, then I think limping might be the most profitable option. Most of the time we get headsup in position against the bb who has random junk and is possibly suspicious we have limped a monster. We are only putting one big blind into a pot of more than 3 bigs so we only need to win 30% of the time. This is obviously a very profitable situation for us. Depending on the flop and our opponent(s) tendencies we can either try to get to a showdown cheap or exert some pressure with small bets into a small pot. Headsup with these stacks limping is the Nash equilibrium, so it will often be the most profitable play three handed.

I remember the hand Dave Brady mentioned from our UKIPT feature table. My reason for limping was there were predominantly two different types of players at the table
(1) "Traditional" players who would regard an early position limp from a player (they perceived to be) as tight as me as deeply suspicious (weighted towards monsters).
(2) More action players (of which Dave was one) who might try to isolate me but would find it hard to call a limp reshove.

I felt group (1) would play back with a range of hands no wider (possibly even less wide) than if I raised, so I could happily limp fold to them (and save myself the extra big blind over raise folding), while I had a lot of fold equity on the limp reshove against group (2). Another key factor was the two blinds in the hand were very straightforward post flop (so I felt they would check fold when they missed)

When you have twenty big blinds, every one of them is precious so you should always be looking for ways to get more value (in equity terms) for them.

I think we should open a thread on your UKIPT limping when this thread dies down. Didn't Phil Collins do quite a bit of it on the 2012 WSOP FT?