2pair in deepstack

[Jam-Fly]

blinds 75-150 in European Deepstack. Most stacks around the ~50k mark.

Table has been playing big pots with mediocre hands semi-routinely.

MP raises pf to 450, button calls, I call SB with 89ss, BB also calls.

Flop (1800): 8h9hQc

Checked to pf raiser, he bets 1100. Button call. I call. BB folds.

Turn (5100): 2c

I check. PF raiser checks. Button bets 4k. I call. PF raiser calls.

River (17000): 10d

I check. PF raiser checks. Button bets 12k.


PF raiser seems straight forward enough. I'd be pretty confident his range here is AA or KK (I rule out QQ because he checks turn).

Button is an aggro Scandi player. He's won the bigger pots at the table so since building a stack over the 80k mark he's been playing a lot of hands and has been generally very aggressive.

Questions:

On turn, I think a fold is much too weak tbh, so don't consider that. Should I ch-raise. If I ch-raise to 11k say, button can only shove with JT imo (so do I plan to ch-raise-fold turn?). If he flats, do I ch-call all blank rivers? If he flats, what do I do on T, J, Q, heart, club rivers?

On river, any merit in leading? I think leading leaves me in exact same position tbh as he can raise if he thinks I missed/am bluffing anyway. Do you call river? He has been very aggro thus far and I'd think he is definitely capable of making a big bluff in this spot (he struck me as the type to put maximum pressure esp now that he had built a bit of a stack compared to others on the table). Is there too many Jx hands in his range? Does he value bet a better two pair or a set here?

[Guest]

I think you play the hand pretty much perfect, dont see anything that seems bad at all, on the.river it's.a horrible.card, u never seem.good here 3 handed I think I just sigh fold

[HiCloy]

Button is an aggro Scandi player. He's won the bigger pots at the table so since building a stack over the 80k mark he's been playing a lot of hands and has been generally very aggressive.

Questions:

On turn, I think a fold is much too weak tbh, so don't consider that. Should I ch-raise. If I ch-raise to 11k say, button can only shove with JT imo (so do I plan to ch-raise-fold turn?). If he flats, do I ch-call all blank rivers? If he flats, what do I do on T, J, Q, heart, club rivers?

He can really discount you have JT or a set after you overcall that wet a flop 3 way, and shove lots of worse hands (mostly big draws). Definitely don't CR/F. Based on description calling and c/c blank river seems best, this is obviously a tough one, I'd probably fold

[Jam-Fly]

any more opinions on this? would like to hear some more feedback before I reveal results

[GaryT]

blinds 75-150 in European Deepstack. Most stacks around the ~50k mark.

Table has been playing big pots with mediocre hands semi-routinely.

MP raises pf to 450, button calls, I call SB with 89ss, BB also calls.

Flop (1800): 8h9hQc

Checked to pf raiser, he bets 1100. Button call. I call. BB folds.

Turn (5100): 2c

I check. PF raiser checks. Button bets 4k. I call. PF raiser calls.

River (17000): 10d

I check. PF raiser checks. Button bets 12k.


PF raiser seems straight forward enough. I'd be pretty confident his range here is AA or KK (I rule out QQ because he checks turn).

Button is an aggro Scandi player. He's won the bigger pots at the table so since building a stack over the 80k mark he's been playing a lot of hands and has been generally very aggressive.

Questions:

On turn, I think a fold is much too weak tbh, so don't consider that. Should I ch-raise. If I ch-raise to 11k say, button can only shove with JT imo (so do I plan to ch-raise-fold turn?). If he flats, do I ch-call all blank rivers? If he flats, what do I do on T, J, Q, heart, club rivers?

On river, any merit in leading? I think leading leaves me in exact same position tbh as he can raise if he thinks I missed/am bluffing anyway. Do you call river? He has been very aggro thus far and I'd think he is definitely capable of making a big bluff in this spot (he struck me as the type to put maximum pressure esp now that he had built a bit of a stack compared to others on the table). Is there too many Jx hands in his range? Does he value bet a better two pair or a set here?

Flop is ok. Wouldn't mind a raise here. Would probably raise most of the time in game. We get value from quite a lot of hands. Overpairs from PF raiser etc. Would probably have to fold to a backraise from BTN though.

Why would we check raise turn instead of flop? People will spaz with draws despite being so deep lot more on the flop than turn. After we call flop we should call turn. C/R accomplishes nothing IMO. Don't think he folds better. Will probably still call with Q9 etc. We then hate the vast majority of rivers and have no idea what to do.

What rivers were you planning on calling btw?

River has to be a fold I think. I really hate folding in general but I'd say it's a fold. I suppose he can bluff here as we appear to have so few combos of straights here like QJhh,KJhh,AJhh. But even most aggro scandi's aren't that crazy and when that flop/turn gets 2 callers he's not going to bluff a massive % of the time.

If he's decent he's value betting a lot of 2pairs. Both of you seem pretty capped and he would be feeling pretty good about 2 pair/sets here. It would be a bad river to try c/r for value as it will be checked through quite a lot.

Why do you want to lead river? Seems like a bet there would get called by better and fold out worse. I can't see the PF raiser being bad enough to call with AA/KK here with aggro scandi behind.

So yeah just hate life and fold.

Looking at replies basically what Brady said just in a lot more words!

[Downtown]

On turn, I think a fold is much too weak tbh, so don't consider that. Should I ch-raise. If I ch-raise to 11k say, button can only shove with JT imo (so do I plan to ch-raise-fold turn?). If he flats, do I ch-call all blank rivers? If he flats, what do I do on T, J, Q, heart, club rivers?

I wouldnt check raise turn here. If anything chk/raise flop, although I think the line you took on flop is best.

On river, any merit in leading? I think leading leaves me in exact same position tbh as he can raise if he thinks I missed/am bluffing anyway. Do you call river? He has been very aggro thus far and I'd think he is definitely capable of making a big bluff in this spot (he struck me as the type to put maximum pressure esp now that he had built a bit of a stack compared to others on the table). Is there too many Jx hands in his range? Does he value bet a better two pair or a set here?

No point in leading here. A lead here will get through most of the time if you are best, called 100% if you are beat. Its also worse than a chk/call because it leaves some room for him to bluff you off with a raise.

I play it as you did but fold river.

[mugsy]

[/B]
I wouldnt check raise turn here. If anything chk/raise flop, although I think the line you took on flop is best.

[B]

i think the check on the flop is where your dilemma lies. By checking u obviously expected a bet ? But by taking your passive line u had no idea where u are in the hand. 50k deep u have room to figure out. And if the raiser 3-bets...im thinking its the a good spot to 4 bet. limp call im putting u on a possibly j10 and dont want the hardship when that deep early.

[Nuttkickker]

looks like he has a big draw some sort of combo pair + draw or flush + str8. bet on the river is hard to tell either he's hit the srt8 or completely missed. think id fold here though

[Jam-Fly]

ty for responses everyone.

I'm happy with my action up until river. Check raising turn for example is possible but I just don't like it.

On the river, I ended up paying off and being shown AhJx.

The card is such a scary one to bluff at but naturally that means it's also a great card to bluff at. My hand was under rep'd the whole way and it very much looks like a busted draw. The pf raiser looks like KK or AA. I felt the scandi would bluff if he felt he could get the pf raiser to fold AA/KK. I suppose he does have to be concerned with how often I have jacks in my range, but given that I checked river, that seriously lowers the probability of me having a jack.

So basically, I'd established if definitely was a legit spot for scandi to bluff here. Now I had to establish how many Jx are in his range and does he bet any better hands than mine that aren't a straight. I don't think he bets a set or two pair here, so that leaves how many Jx combos versus how many air/turning hand into bluff combos. Based on my feeling at the time, I honestly thought calling was the best move here.

[UlDuffer]

I think there is a lot of merit to donking this flop jamie and i think leading flops in general will become more popular in years to come. It is tough to balance a leading range but i wouldnt worry too much about balance in mtts esp live.

It's a good spot to lead imo because there are a lot of turns that kill our action and make our hand tough to play esp multi way and we can get value from a lot worse and it puts the PFR in a squeeze (tough decision with the BTN left to act).

[Jam-Fly]

I think there is a lot of merit to donking this flop jamie and i think leading flops in general will become more popular in years to come. It is tough to balance a leading range but i wouldnt worry too much about balance in mtts esp live.

It's a good spot to lead imo because there are a lot of turns that kill our action and make our hand tough to play esp multi way and we can get value from a lot worse and it puts the PFR in a squeeze (tough decision with the BTN left to act).

the whole problem with donking this flop was I didn't know what to do if raised. If I check and face a bet, I still don't know what to do either, but at least the pot is smaller. We do get value from AA for example, but depending on the player, AA could well raise a lead for protection here. JT, AA, AQ, AJs may all raise if I lead, and it makes it really tough to make a correct decision against that kind of range