FT Bubble

[Guest]

Playing a 11$ 3k on Stars when this hand arose table has been super aggro 5 handed as you can imagine been quite short sitting tight 1 stars pro, 1 fish, 1 ok guy and a total whale!!!

Table 671855323 25 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Seat 1: MAX911G ( $187533.00 USD )
Seat 5: Pessagno ( $82675.00 USD )
Seat 7: meatyfubu ( $113700.00 USD )
Seat 8: chall3nge ( $183766.00 USD )
Seat 9: mexal89 ( $268754.00 USD )
MAX911G posts ante of [$750.00 USD].
Pessagno posts ante of [$750.00 USD].
meatyfubu posts ante of [$750.00 USD].
chall3nge posts ante of [$750.00 USD].
mexal89 posts ante of [$750.00 USD].
mexal89 posts small blind [$3000.00 USD].
MAX911G posts big blind [$6000.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to meatyfubu [ 9s Ad ]
Pessagno folds
meatyfubu raises [$12000.00 USD]
chall3nge folds
mexal89 folds
MAX911G raises [$180783.00 USD]
meatyfubu???

He's playing 36/27/ 44% 3bet over 40 hands and shoved co everytime I have raised!!

[Caf]

Looks like an open fold to me, especially at an aggro table. With that in mind I'd be in shove/fold mode sub 20bb.

Calling now to get a stack FTW. I'd have planned who I'm calling off against if I'm min opening before opening.

[peterswellman]

I'd rip it in pre personally.

[Mellor]

Playing a 11$ 3k on Stars when this hand arose table has been super aggro 5 handed as you can imagine been quite short sitting tight 1 stars pro, 1 fish, 1 ok guy and a total whale!!!

It probably best if we know who is who in terms of positions tbh.
But either way I'm in push/fold mode here.

[Guest]

Giant whale is the guy who shoves.

Push/fold would defo have been my thinking up to about a week ago, but recently got some coaching and he said that open shoving more than 15bbs with your full range so it is merged AA-xx is actually a massive leak and I should be raising folding and raise calling more as well as folding out more small pairs and medium aces when in EP-MP so I've basically been trying my best to play to this!

[mdoug]

Giant whale is the guy who shoves.

Push/fold would defo have been my thinking up to about a week ago, but recently got some coaching and he said that open shoving more than 15bbs with your full range so it is merged AA-xx is actually a massive leak and I should be raising folding and raise calling more as well as folding out more small pairs and medium aces when in EP-MP so I've basically been trying my best to play to this!

I actually agree with that logic as its the logic I use, but 5 handed on a very aggro table you have to adapt to the sutuation and use a different strategy
As played and as he is the whale I call this off

in this spot I have to be in push shove mode - if you min raise and then get reraised to like 20k from guy in small blind - what's your move? you stack size is a push shove 5 handed against the players you described imo

[Guest]

I actually agree with that logic as its the logic I use, but 5 handed on a very aggro table you have to adapt to the sutuation and use a different strategy
As played and as he is the whale I call this off

in this spot I have to be in push shove mode - if you min raise and then get reraised to like 20k from guy in small blind - what's your move? you stack size is a push shove 5 handed against the players you described imo

I disagree if your playing against players you feel you have an edge on(for the most part) then 20 bbs is too much to be shoving in a marginal spot, my idea was raise fold to a 3bet from btn or sb and call the shove of the bb, heres an unreal piece on stack sizes deep in tourneys!!


As for 3bet sizing you need to specify it a bit before I can say anything meaningful since stacksizes and opponents are key here.

Often stacks are such in onlinetournies that squeezing easily gets very awkward postflop because stacks are shallow and bad players loves to hoodflat.

A tournament series like Scoop provided me with some good spots to squeeze though because of the deeper stacks

I did it a fair bit with marginal holdings against good players at stacksizes where I knew they would give me a ton of credit.

So even though they percieve my range as very strong they often gonna peel or c-f the majority of the time to either one or two barrels.

Although if you do decide to squeeze light you should make it smaller against good players and bigger against worse players since the better players understands the implication of calling the additional bet better.

one thing that really helped me was not having a hard rule like you often read about in pokerbooks like "when you have x bbs you should start pushing" or "when you have y bigblinds you cannot 3b-f anymore".

I don't mind going down short if no spot I think is ev+ appears because I am pretty confident in my game at most stacksizes, il take pretty much any ev+ shove I can find though.

Please rank the following hands in order of value for 5-bet shoving light versus the typical high stakes MTT opponent: 22, KQo, T9s, A5s. What opponent and history based factors would need to be present for you to alter those rankings?

KQo
T9s
22
A5s

I personally feel like KQo is a pretty underrated hands in questions like this just because that in this day and age in hsmtts people are value 4betting way more pairs than they used to.

What's the biggest mistakes most players make deep in tournies - the final 2-3 tables?

Certainly the biggest mistakes are that people (in that order):

1) dont open enough
2) dont shove over opens enough
3) dont call it off marginally enough

you should never underestimate how badly a lot of people wanna make the ft even though there is no addtional value to it.

8.30 109 turbo

30~ people left, well into the $$$

stealthmunk on the BTN with 10.5bbs
im sb with 13bbs
BB (tight random losing player) has like 12 BBs

stealthmunk shoves and I iso with what range. im pretty sure of my answer but just want to double check, and didnt feel like it warranted it's own HSMTT thread???

quick guess around this 22+,A2s+,K6s+,Q9s+,JTs,A2o+,K8o+,QTo+

First of all I think I shoud clarify that I mainly use it when the antes have kicked in and very rarely before 50-100.

There is certainly one thing that is "better" than the other and to be honest I dont think it matters too much.

I have spent a ton of time railing players that I respect and one thing I have found is that there is a lot of different ways to get to the same result.

For an instance I see djk minraising but someone like moorman will pretty much 3x at all times in mtts no matter how shallow stack are (although it seems he has recently gone down to 2,5-2,6)

and no matter how shallow stacks are he just ends up with all the chips.

Now for me personally I just think minraising gives you more room to play both preflop and postflop

Its puts a lot of pressure on people for a very small price and it puts a lot of people in a spot they arent used to (which means that a lot of people will peel either too loose or too tight).

The common counteragument against minraising is that it gives people a better price and they will call you more, that is certainly true but I dont think it's as bad a thing as most people are making it out to be.

Having someone playing a weaker and wider range often oop is certainly not the end of the world.

tell me about betting, including bet sizes, against possible draws???

pretty tough to say something about this with this little information but if you think someone has a draw its for the most part correct to keep on betting

(and bet big, people online tend to call with draws even when they dont have the odds to). If his draw does not get there check the river oop and bet really small ip to try and get him to bluff the rest off

Yes 4-betting light should only be used in games where people are capable of 3-betting light to begin with

(and this rarely happens in ssmtts although it's certainly possible).

It is very villian dependant esp in the hsmtts where you play with the same guys often.

its important to pick good spots to 4-bet light but it's also important not to overdo and not to do it with a frequency where people start expecting you do it, but just enough to keep them guessing.

A good spot to 3-bet light would be one where stacks are such thats it's gonna be really awkward for a good player to proceed. An example would be 40bbs eff someone opens to 2,2x I make it 4,9x otb and they have a tough decision.

And as I said when I 4bet light I like to have a hand thats "pretty" if nothing else but helping me determine frequency, also something with alright equity if a shorty wakes up with a hand behind is always nice.

25-30bb deep readless against a random bvb in a soft 22$-55$. how wide/how big do you advocate to raise here?

tough to say depends a lot if there are antes or not and how deep into the tourney it is but a very quick look at pokerstove gave me this:
22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q7s+,J7s+,T7s+,97s+,85s+,75s+,65s,A2 o+,K7o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T8o+,98o,87o,76o,65o

Even with something like 14bbs from utg I would just raise it in and who knows against certain people I could def find a fold

(or if more than one person becomes involved). Again something like AK id usually shove with 12bbs but at some tables you might rather wanna induce.

The opposite can be true as well though in the sunday 500 a couple of weeks ago someone shoved 20bbs vs me bvsb with AQo (I snapped with something way worse) and I was impressed by him and immediately made a note.

It folds to you in the CO with 20BBs in a $55-$129 MTT. There's antes and its not close to being ITM. BTN and blinds have reshove stacks. What hands would you recommend:
- raise/calling
- shoving
- raise/folding???

It's not that I dont mind answering and giving stuff away about my game but tbh I dont even know! Take a hand like 55 I will raise/call it against some, shove it sometimes and might even raise/fold it against certain people!

I just always look for what I think will be the most cev+ line against the people that are behind

You have 44 in the C/O deep in a tourney with 20bbs with standard antes. Your M is 10 etc.

I've been told this is a jam and not a raise/call or fold because this could allow hands like JTs to jam on us which we have bad equity against.

Is this too much of a high variance play though? So much that you'd pass it up or is it still standard?

Standard shove, in fact I would argue that shoving is less variance than the other options (obviously not less than folding but that would be craaaazy)

Okay, maybe a more specific question. You have position on a villain who has been pretty active (raising 2-3 times an orbit), both of you are 30+BB deep. Tourney is just before or after the bubble. With what hands would you 3 bet?

What hands would you call a four bet?

if we are 30bbs deep the majority of the time (though not always) the hands will be something for value

and if I 3bet something for value at this stackdepth it will not be with the intention of folding to a 4bet since I then might as well 4bet atc.

Id sometimes do it with 65s that il fold to a shove just to make sure im not too easy to play against. As for the valurange im getting it in with it depends a lot on the player and position,

it could be as bad as 66+A9s+,ATo+ or as tight as QQ+AKo+

On the button with a 40bb stack,cutoff(also playing 40bbs) opens for 2.5x , this is your 1st hand at the table,both blinds have 100bbs, what do you do with AJ offsuit? Why???

I call to keep in worse and because I dont know anything about him at all. Also it's really awkward if I 3b with no plan (also blinds are likely to peel with a lot of hands you dominate).

More likely to 3b/get it in if there are antes though

What is your general game plan when antes are in play with a 10bb stack? 25bb stack? 40bb stack? 60+bb stack???

10 bb- jam and hopefully get there

25 bb- some combination of slowly building and huge openshoves/reshoves, really depends on the situation

40-60 just try to constantly build my stack, preferably without risking too much if possible.

What is the maximum % of your stack you are willing to 4bet light preflop???

not sure but if you asked me to pick a number on the spot I would say 21-22%

Still dont like rules about minimum stacks to r/f but if I have to im gonna go ahead and say 12 and 13.

As for the other question again it depends, if people are jamming more on you expand your r/c range for value, openshove more with the bottom of your range and decrease the amount of r/f you are doing.

The thing is though that winning all-ins is something that you have ABSOLUTELY ZERO CONTROL OVER so worrying about it is really pointless.

Thats why instead of whining over running bad I have just always tried my absolute hardest to learn how to put myself in the best position to win those all-ins.

1) The moment you decide to play mtts you have to accept that no matter how good you are gonna run under expectation the majority of the time but it will be offset by the times you run WAY above expectation

(like binking the Sunday Million for an instance).

To put it another way it is very few people will actually run even close to expectation if they play tournies with big fields.

We are all doomed to either run way above or way below, all you can do is give yourself the best odds possible by constantly improving

2) Also this is the reason that I grind so many weekdays and tournies with both smaller buy-ins and fields.

At the start of the year I decided I would treat this as a real job and even if I bricked every single EPT, Scoop/Wcoop and FTOPS I still wanted to have a year where I porfited.

The only way I could possibly secure that was by grinding a ton of the tournies that arent as prestigious or sexy but will provide me with a steady income.

There is no general advice on 3-betting light but one thing I always think about is "if I 3bet this guy here at this stacksize will it put him in awkward spot or will he have an easy decision?".

An example would be say someone opens to 2,4x and you 3bet him to 5,6x and the effective stacks are 24bbs. Here he would have a pretty easy decision since it's either a shove or a fold for him.

Now say he had 44bbs instead you are putting him in a really tough spot where he has to risk a lot of chips to shove and flatcalling isn't very appealing either.

That would be an example of a good stackdepth to 3b a good player that is opening a lot

1) there is not point in trying to disguise a pattern if people can't recognize it.

What I mean by this is that 3betting to the same size with a strong and weak hand against a bad player is very often a mistake as they won't be able to notice the difference.

2) but if you are playing against smart players who you often clash against you don't wanna be exploited by having two difference sizes for your bluffs and strong hands, here it makes sense to always use the same size.

3) The deeper you are the bigger your 3bets should be, the shallower the stacks are the smaller they should be.

[Flushdraw]

Congrats on the longest post in the history of IPB!

[Guest]

Congrats on the longest post in the history of IPB!

What's my prize??

[GaryT]

I personally don't like open shoving 19bbs. Just feels like a bit of a waste of a very playable stack. Especially with medium Ax hands just feels like you end up dominated a huge % of the time. Although that's possibly just variance from my own experience there.

My 1st thought was why is this a thread just snap if he's shoving that much. But then i checked pokerstove and it is a lot closer than I originally thought.

Like if he shoves. A2+,22-JJ,K8s+,KTo+,QTs,QJo+ Thats like 24%. I took out QQ+ as I presume he doesn't just shove them?

We have 43% against that. I expected to have 50+ tbh.

[Caf]

Congrats on the longest post in the history of IPB!

Cliffs plz

[Flushdraw]

What's my prize??

Cliffs plz

Ah i thought he wrote it himself. Disappointed to see it was a C+P job No prize for you so!

Haven't read it yet Caf

[Guest]

Ah i thought he wrote it himself. Disappointed to see it was a C+P job No prize for you so!

Haven't read it yet Caf

It was a guy I know, who gave the questions, kinda interview format, but a decent read! Yeah its way too well punctuated to be me

[peterswellman]

I'm actually very surprised to see people not actually have a shoving range here.

Do people raise/call 22-55 here? Sounds high variance against a guy whos gonna be ripping in on us a nice chunk here.

[bustamoves]

What the fuck was that? Was that a copy n paste job? Seriously man it hurt my eyes.
It took ages to get to the bottom of it scrolling down on my ifone.
Was it worth reading anyone?

As for the hand, it strikes me as a very simple raise/fold with your stack size and opponents.

[Mellor]

It was a guy I know, who gave the questions, kinda interview format, but a decent read! Yeah its way too well punctuated to be me

With nothing to highlight what a question and what's an answer it was hard to read. I gave up after a while, when the randomness was going off topic.

[KK82]

I don't like shoving hands like a9 with 20bbs.. I feel like you're always crushed when called, except b v b or button v bb or something. Even in those situations, I think raise to induce might be better.
I also think when playing a sub 20 bb stack if you're raising, you should really decide what you're gonna do if shoved on by a particular player before you raise.

That's more a general comment, than a comment on this hand really btw.

[Guest]

I got the piece off a forum, I copy and pasted it into word and it's easier to read.

Just to say on the hand, having a shoving range is fine but the leak is the shoving range is always waited towards marginal holdings opposed to nutted hands which makes the play exploitable.
Raise folding/calling is.simply, as I was told infinitely more efficient. The whale I gave stats on was playing super aggro pre, no small 3 bets just raising or 3 bet shoving and showed no propensity to call light, therefore raise/calling opposed to shoving is a much more profitable way of playing the hand, as you will induce action from a huge range which you have beat while you're only being called by a much smaller range which has u crushed!
I think any suggestion of open folding is very poor imo, 5 handed.

[Laois Hammer]

He's playing 36/27/ 44% 3bet over 40 hands and shoved co everytime I have raised!!

I think this makes it an easy call in this particular spot and your plan to r/c him r/f to others is fine, im guessing the 44% is 4 out of 9 oppurtunitys and hes hes jammed you in particular everytime so seems really reasonable to r/c him.
Not gonna open anything your not snapping vs such a crazy big blind and then it all changes if hes a nit so v spot dependant.

Btw i also stopped shoving 20 most of the time aswel but i think saying its exploitable is the wrong choice of word, they are just unnessassary most of the time vs a weak field

[Winning!]

Mickey Petersen ITT. I feel humbled.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showpost.php?p=19213467&postcount=16

[PokerDubKid]

Was it worth reading anyone?

Yes absolutely. Totally re-evaluated my thinking of push/folding in a MTT with ~15-20BB left.
Cheers OP.