QQ call or fold??

[Guest]

33$ MTT on Party and wondering if this is a call or fold??

Playing 9kish blinds 150-300 i open btn with QQ and sb calls,
flop comes 663 rainbow sb checks, i bet 600 sb calls
turn comes a 10 bringing a flush draw sb checks, i bet 1200 sb calls
river comes a 2 but flush misses sb checks, i bet 2700 with 4.2kish behind and sb shoves????
Is it ever a bluff here??
Player is an unknown with no profit

[Wesley Harms]

River check raise all in is never a bluff imo, even less so with the action.

Easy bet fold

[ghostface]

River check raise all in is never a bluff imo, even less so with the action.

Easy bet fold

I prob call here, can have hands with a 10 in them a lot, even JJ,99ish hands. Surely he 3 bets better pre and would value the 6 on the river??

[Guest]

I prob call here, can have hands with a 10 in them a lot, even JJ,99ish hands. Surely he 3 bets better pre and would value the 6 on the river??

Yeah exactly how I thought about the hand, I thought it would take quite a good player to check raise the river with a 6

[Caf]

How much did you make it pre? Is there antes?

[blaaaaaaah]

I prob call here, can have hands with a 10 in them a lot, even JJ,99ish hands. Surely he 3 bets better pre and would value the 6 on the river??

Don't agree with this. Imo Richie is right here in this spot. This sort of line is never a bluff or over vaule of a hand like a 10. He prob calls flop with AT here and even then I don't think he check shoves river, it's the only 10 he can have. He can have 64,65,67,68 combo's also he can have 33, TT or even stubborn with 22. Like I dont see jj check shoving a 3 barrel, from his point of view it's going to be hard to get called and still be ahead of a tripple barrel/call range.

Without history I can only see bet/fold river being fine.

[Guest]

How much did you make it pre? Is there antes?

yeah there was antes i just min raised as usual

[Guest]

Don't agree with this. Imo Richie is right here in this spot. This sort of line is never a bluff or over vaule of a hand like a 10. He prob calls flop with AT here and even then I don't think he check shoves river, it's the only 10 he can have. He can have 64,65,67,68 combo's also he can have 33, TT or even stubborn with 22. Like I dont see jj check shoving a 3 barrel, from his point of view it's going to be hard to get called and still be ahead of a tripple barrel/call range.

Without history I can only see bet/fold river being fine.

Yeah i can completely understand both arguments here, I just felt a losing player does not check this river out of fear of losing value, I dont see a call being profitable against a winning player

[ghostface]

Don't agree with this. Imo Richie is right here in this spot. This sort of line is never a bluff or over vaule of a hand like a 10. He prob calls flop with AT here and even then I don't think he check shoves river, it's the only 10 he can have. He can have 64,65,67,68 combo's also he can have 33, TT or even stubborn with 22. Like I dont see jj check shoving a 3 barrel, from his point of view it's going to be hard to get called and still be ahead of a tripple barrel/call range.

Without history I can only see bet/fold river being fine.

Would you not check behind on the river then? Prob losing value tho.

I think a lot depends on the perception of the player being good or not in this spot

[Guest]

Would you not check behind on the river then? Prob losing value tho.

I think a lot depends on the perception of the player being good or not in this spot

I dont think check behind on the river is ever an option

[blaaaaaaah]

Would you not check behind on the river then? Prob losing value tho.

I think a lot depends on the perception of the player being good or not in this spot

Yeah exactly. No bet/folding is the correct play because alot of the time you will be called down light enough as you are polarised. I throw random figure out there that roughly 85% of the time you will get called or folded to and the rest 15% being raised (even less). So this is what makes bet/folding the right option. Also, we say bet folding but most of the time we bet get called or bet folded to.

[Caf]

yeah there was antes i just min raised as usual

Why Cbet so small then? Not sure what the antes are but if 50 and 9 handed then you're Cbetting 1/3rd pot. I much prefer around 1/2 pot because we will get floated a lot less and on this type of flop we will cbet 100% of our opening range but we won't often have a hand as strong as QQ so we don't need to be trying to keep villain in the pot. Turn bet could be bigger too imo.

[Strewelpeter]

Why Cbet so small then? Not sure what the antes are but if 50 and 9 handed then you're Cbetting 1/3rd pot. I much prefer around 1/2 pot because we will get floated a lot less and on this type of flop we will cbet 100% of our opening range but we won't often have a hand as strong as QQ so we don't need to be trying to keep villain in the pot. Turn bet could be bigger too imo.

This.
The bet sizing up to now has made it a spot where many will station it to the river and check shove your full range including lots of air.

I've been the villain here a few times lately and will be check shoving anything that has any showdown value that I've brought this far knowing you should fold JJ+. So I'm inclined to call it off, his line is as FOS as mine

[blaaaaaaah]

Why Cbet so small then? Not sure what the antes are but if 50 and 9 handed then you're Cbetting 1/3rd pot. I much prefer around 1/2 pot because we will get floated a lot less and on this type of flop we will cbet 100% of our opening range but we won't often have a hand as strong as QQ so we don't need to be trying to keep villain in the pot. Turn bet could be bigger too imo.

I disagree. I rather like his small size c-bet compared with the board texture, obv as long as he bluffs this amount aswell. There's just no need to bet more on a paired board heads up. Turn bet I would bet slightly bigger also yeah.

[imidg]

Yeah exactly how I thought about the hand, I thought it would take quite a good player to check raise the river with a 6

A good player is never checking the river with a 6

[alanmc101]

A good player is never checking the river with a 6

Why not? The buttons gonna have so much air here checking river makes perfect sense, ESP without initiative in the hand. You think good players are goin to ch call twice then donk a 6 always??

[imidg]

Why not? The buttons gonna have so much air here checking river makes perfect sense, ESP without initiative in the hand. You think good players are goin to ch call twice then donk a 6 always??

I just think 3 barrel bluffs dont happen often enough to check a 6,unless you know the player,anyway i would always bet a 6 just think it would be checked back to often,alot of hands worst than QQ will call if you donk bet your 6,not many hands will call c/shove,just my opinion.

[alanmc101]

I just think 3 barrel bluffs dont happen often enough to check a 6,unless you know the player,anyway i would always bet a 6 just think it would be checked back to often,alot of hands worst than QQ will call if you donk bet your 6,not many hands will call c/shove,just my opinion.

Yea, I think villain will value own himself with a lot of those hands that call the donk bet, which we can shove over possibly getting crying calls. The 3 barrels will happen here too but you're right prob not a huge amount.

[imidg]

Don't agree with this. Imo Richie is right here in this spot. This sort of line is never a bluff or over vaule of a hand like a 10. He prob calls flop with AT here and even then I don't think he check shoves river, it's the only 10 he can have. He can have 64,65,67,68 combo's also he can have 33, TT or even stubborn with 22. Like I dont see jj check shoving a 3 barrel, from his point of view it's going to be hard to get called and still be ahead of a tripple barrel/call range.

Without history I can only see bet/fold river being fine.

Do you think 64 65 67 68 are in the sb range facing a button raise,seems more likely he has 33 TT maybe 22 A10 or even 66 A6S

[blaaaaaaah]

Do you think 64 65 67 68 are in the sb range facing a button raise,seems more likely he has 33 TT maybe 22 A10 or even 66 A6S

It's obv very player dependant so untill we know villains game we cant rule them out. Obv if he does have the 56etc he's a bad player, on info given he prob is bad anyway imo flatting a button raise from sb. Nearly all your range is a 3bet or fold from sb to button.

[alanmc101]

It's obv very player dependant so untill we know villains game we cant rule them out. Obv if he does have the 56etc he's a bad player, on info given he prob is bad anyway imo flatting a button raise from sb. Nearly all your range is a 3bet or fold from sb to button.

I'll 3 bet a lot of my range sb to button but I'll also flat a ton of hands that I'd hate get into a pre flop war with, only when stacks are relatively deep though. I'll even flat aj here when stacks are super deep.

[TommyGunne]

I'll 3 bet a lot of my range sb to button but I'll also flat a ton of hands that I'd hate get into a pre flop war with, only when stacks are relatively deep though. I'll even flat aj here when stacks are super deep.

I've had this debate before w/ people. I think most people 3bet hands that they should really be flatting from the sb. Obv stack dependent, but I think people take 3betting every hand they play from the sb too far. Doesnt make sense to me to have 0 calling range.

[Hectorjelly]

A good player is never checking the river with a 6

I hate this type of logic, it's also incorrect. For one thing "good" players will take their opponent and what range they think he has into account, rendering such simplistic analysis redundant.

[Hectorjelly]

I just think 3 barrel bluffs dont happen often enough to check a 6,unless you know the player,anyway i would always bet a 6 just think it would be checked back to often,alot of hands worst than QQ will call if you donk bet your 6,not many hands will call c/shove,just my opinion.

Yeah, when you say a good player will never check the river with a six, you actually mean YOU wouldn't check a six.

A big mistake a lot of people make in their thinking is being unable to see that other players play very differently than they do.

[imidg]

Yeah, when you say a good player will never check the river with a six, you actually mean YOU wouldn't check a six.

A big mistake a lot of people make in their thinking is being unable to see that other players play very differently than they do.

Your dead right, now that i read the post "Never checking a 6 on the river" is abit silly,its very "opponent" "situation" depentant, as are most decisions i make.
With the tone in your replys, you seem pretty annoyed at my opinions and thats all they are,im sure i make tons of mistakes and butcher loads of hands unlike YOU,but i still luckbox my way to be a winning player on all sites i play on.

[alanmc101]

Your dead right, now that i read the post "Never checking a 6 on the river" is abit silly,its very "opponent" "situation" depentant, as are most decisions i make.
With the tone in your replys, you seem pretty annoyed at my opinions and thats all they are,im sure i make tons of mistakes and butcher loads of hands unlike YOU,but i still luckbox my way to be a winning player on all sites i play on.

Touchy! He made valid points to be fair, accusatory tone aside

[Guest]

Im gonna keep making threads they always seem to lead to conflict, im starting to see a trend developing :-)

[alanmc101]

Keyboard warriors ftw!

[blaaaaaaah]

I've had this debate before w/ people. I think most people 3bet hands that they should really be flatting from the sb. Obv stack dependent, but I think people take 3betting every hand they play from the sb too far. Doesnt make sense to me to have 0 calling range.

@alanmc also. Yeah if we move from general guideline to specifics on how many bbs effective we are etc, obv changes how we should view/play hands differently.

Good point Tommygunne makes there about 0 calling range. What are the benefits of having a 5% calling range for example, in the long run? Actually, once you even answer that Q i'd have several more to bring up with points too. I'd have discussion about this cause it would be pretty insightful, would prob require new thread tho, so maybe in the near future if someone remembers.

[Winning!]

Shouldn't a sb calling range should generally be dynamic (villain/stacks dependent) rather than some fixed %? A fixed 0% calling range makes very little sense to me, but I guess it was the result of people trying to be as unexploitable as possible in a bad position, and thinking that a capped calling range would give them headaches OOP when villain continually barreled them off their semi-weak range. This simply wont be the case though if the range is constructed and balanced correctly. A decent calling range will just contain hands which flops well and will have villain dominated enough (assuming he's opening BTN a lot) to compensate for our positional disadvantage, mixing in stronger hands from time to time.

At stack depths where we expect BTN to shove or fold to our 3b we should be 3betting a polarised range anyway, so with hands like broadways/pps/semi-strong Ax hands flatting might be preferable, unless villain is just getting it in super-light in which case a ton of these semi-strong hands can just become 3b/c.

The deeper we get though, the tighter our SB play gets, and the more inclined we should be to 3b these semi-strong hands as part of a merged range with which to disguise our strong value range and also combat villain flatting a wider merged range himself. In this way I guess a SB flatting range could tend asymptotically toward 0% as stacks get deeper and deeper