3rd Pair in 3bet pot semi interesting river spot

[GaryT]

This was a live €125 FO. Around 13 left playing 7 handed. I've just been moved to the table less than 2 orbits ago. I had played 2 hands since being moved here. I showed down K9o after opening UTG and flopping a straight.

The other hand I opened from MP got 3 bet by the same villan as the hand below which I folded to. I briefly considered 4 betting. When I folded he asked me did I not fancy 4 betting my 2 rags. So I can presume he expects me to be aggressive because I'm quite young.

This villan seemed to be quite good. He had been playing a lot of hands and winning most pots he played without showdown.

Blinds 500/1000 100ante.

I've around 65k and tourney chip leader. He has around 50k. He opens from mid position to around 2600.

I'm on the button with J 6

I 3 bet to 7300 and he calls.

My reason for 3 betting here is that he's obviously opening very wide judging by the amount of hands he's played in the short time I've been at the table. I figured that's how he got his big stack just through running over the table as everybody else seemed to be a bit weak tight.

Also as I felt he was a decent player I didn't think he would be calling the 3 bet really light OOP.

Flop comes T95 rainbow. He checks, I bet 7800 and he calls again. I feel he could be calling this flop really light as from his point of view it's very unlikely I hit anything on this board. So i was thinking he could easily have a gutter and 2 overs. So something like KJ+ maybe QJs or AJ. Also I don't think I can rule out 77, 88, 99, TT, KK and AA. I feel he would have 4 just tried to get it in pre JJ, QQ and AQ+. I don't think he has many 9s or 10s in his range.

Turn then is a 6 bringing a flush draw onto the board. Again he checks and I check back. This check back is pretty standard I think as we now have showdown value.

The river then is an off suit 5. He leads out to around 16,800. Hero????

I mainly want to see if I'm on the right track though process wise.

[alanmc101]

bet/fold turn. there's lots of hands he can have for thin value otr when the turn goes ch ch, he can bet any pair here so prob have to fold river as played.

[ghostface]

bet/fold turn. there's lots of hands he can have for thin value otr when the turn goes ch ch, he can bet any pair here so prob have to fold river as played.

This. Can't see myself ever calling the river. I'd prob be making it less pre if 3betting there, 5.8-6.1

[8611]

Fold pre. Given what you know he thinks about you this is not a good spot to 3 bet him, much more profitable to actually wait for a hand. Villain is also competent so there's no need to get involved against him, there must be easier spots at the table.

As played 3 bet slightly less pre. Your bet sizing looks too obvious that you want him to fold imo.

If I found myself in this situation I pretty much shut down on the turn. I can't see what you can do on the river. You're repping nothing at all and villain is competent enough to know youre at it and call you with any pair. He has also shown a lot of strength and is pot committed.

Very occasionally I would consider open shoving turn and get him to fold the pocket pair he's prob called you with. I was also in a similar spot recently where I wanted to shove over a similar raise with similar stack sizes and it turns out I woudl have been right. But neither are good ideas in the long run.

[Bubbleking]

. When I folded he asked me did I not fancy 4 betting my 2 rags.

Its a €125 game so either he wants to sound impressive or more likely he is badly trying to establish himself as the table captain. We've all seen this type of player before - tries to talk a good game but takes poor lines and bluffs in bad spots

The river then is an off suit 5. He leads out to around 16,800. Hero????

I mainly want to see if I'm on the right track though process wise.

Firstly I would probably fold pre - he is the type of player who will give you his stack anyway. Granted you will have to widen your range against him but I think the J6 sooty is a bit of a stretch.

On the river im happy enough to call it off. his bet sizing is indicative of a bluff considering you have shown absolutely no strength in the hand after the turn check back. A good player will note this and make the river bet something you can actually call with a marginal hand.

Im an uber fan of shoving rivers but I think you are good enough of the time here to make it unnecessary.

[Denny Crane]

Not much point in betting the flop if you think he's going to peel really light.

[Winning!]

Not much point in betting the flop if you think he's going to peel really light.

We can't profitably 3b trash pre if we are going to check back unimproved flops, even if we assume villain will peel with any piece. This is a manditory cbet, as we would with our entire range of value hands, if called we can continue barreling and get a fold at some point or perhaps pick up showdown value, but we have to be aggressive. Giving up the initiative on the flop will almost certainly mean giving up the pot later without a very favourable runout.

5.5-5.8k pre. 6k/f flop as played, 11750/f turn as played. Fold river, calling is fairly bad when we block a lot of combos that might peel flop and bluff us off now (KJ/QJ/J8s), and he's committed too much of his stack for us to try and raise him off his weaker 2P value range.

[Bozzer]

We can't profitably 3b trash pre if we are going to check back unimproved flops, even if we assume villain will peel with any piece.

This isn’t true if you expect villain is folding enough preflop and/or the flop smacks his calling range.

I think pre is likely a mistake if we’re putting a lot of QJ/KJ/KQ hands in his range. He would have to be opening extremely light from MP to show a profit if he’s continuing with these sort of hands.

I don’t mind giving up on this flop. Betting once (and planning to ck blank turns) would be bad. As played I agree with turn ck and I’m calling river for sure getting around 3:1.

[GaryT]

Its a €125 game so either he wants to sound impressive or more likely he is badly trying to establish himself as the table captain. We've all seen this type of player before - tries to talk a good game but takes poor lines and bluffs in bad spots



Firstly I would probably fold pre - he is the type of player who will give you his stack anyway. Granted you will have to widen your range against him but I think the J6 sooty is a bit of a stretch.

On the river im happy enough to call it off. his bet sizing is indicative of a bluff considering you have shown absolutely no strength in the hand after the turn check back. A good player will note this and make the river bet something you can actually call with a marginal hand.

Im an uber fan of shoving rivers but I think you are good enough of the time here to make it unnecessary.

You pretty much summed up my thinking on the hand. I think he was a pretty solid player though. The 3 bet was just because he was obviously wide so I thought we'd take it down pre or with a cbet enough of the time for it to be profitable. I was planning on shutting down if my cbet was called. I also ended up calling the river here. Wont give away the results just yet.

We can't profitably 3b trash pre if we are going to check back unimproved flops, even if we assume villain will peel with any piece. This is a manditory cbet, as we would with our entire range of value hands, if called we can continue barreling and get a fold at some point or perhaps pick up showdown value, but we have to be aggressive. Giving up the initiative on the flop will almost certainly mean giving up the pot later without a very favourable runout.

5.5-5.8k pre. 6k/f flop as played, 11750/f turn as played. Fold river, calling is fairly bad when we block a lot of combos that might peel flop and bluff us off now (KJ/QJ/J8s), and he's committed too much of his stack for us to try and raise him off his weaker 2P value range.

I might have the sizing slightly wrong. Just doing it from memory. I know I was 3 betting slightly over 2.5x. It's something I've started doing in live games where people just don't fold to 2-2.3x 3 bets. Around what you suggested would be my normal size I'd say.

I don't think he had many 9s or 10s apart from 99 TT in his range here. I expected him to try get JJ+ in pre unless he decided to just flat with AA KK to try get me to spaz. So I was thinking all that's beating us here are pocket pairs. Which could be 77, 88, then houses with 99s and TTs and AA, KK which he could flat pre.

bet/fold turn. there's lots of hands he can have for thin value otr when the turn goes ch ch, he can bet any pair here so prob have to fold river as played.

But does betting the turn not give him the chance to take us off what could easily be the best hand? I can't really see him folding any better hands. Except maybe 77 or 88. Even with them he could easily think I'm just barreling air here as it's unlikely he has anything to call on this type of board.

I couldn't see him betting 77 or 88 on the river. Surely he would bluff catch with that as it's very unlikely for me to call with worse. I didn't think there was many 9x or Tx he could have peeled with pre. So I felt his value range was pretty much AA KK. Compared to the amount of KJ KQ JQ combos he could easily have.

Is the general thought process of the hand right do you think? I've been trying to work on actually thinking about hands a bit more while in them especially because he seemed to be at least half a thinking player.

Thanks

[GaryT]

Anyway I ended up calling here and he had K high. Just posted this because I was trying to check if my thought process was right or if I just being a station

[ianmc38]

Can't see a reason to fold river. Live players aren't looking for thin value here with 77 and there are a ton of hands we beat that can peel the flop. I prefer checking turn too. He's never folding better, but we might induce some bluffs on the river.