Shove OTR?

[Caf]

HH is from the $109 Saturday 40k on ipoker. Level 40/80. No reads on villain but has opened a few pots to 3x from UTG in the last couple of levels. I haven't played a pot with him.

UTG(10.5k) opens to 240,

Hero(5.2k) makes it 600 OTB with A, A, UTG calls.

Flop(1,320): 4, 2, 4

Check and hero bets 660, UTG calls

Turn(2,640): 8

Check and hero bets 1,120, UTG calls

River(4880): 3

UTG checks and hero????


Hero has 2,860 behind and villain covers with 8,130.

1) Is it standard to shove or check back here?

2) If villain shoves the river do we call/fold?

[ghostface]

I shove the river, does he really call turn with fd and then check. Seems a weird line

[alanmc101]

If he open jams river i prolly fold, i think when he checks not shoving rivers missing value, from all those pps he can have he a lot.

[Angry-Ball]

what kinda hands are we hoping he will call with if we shove?

[BobSloane]

what kinda hands are we hoping he will call with if we shove?

pocket pairs.

They make up a lot more of his range than fds. Shoving seems pretty standard here imo

[Angry-Ball]

what pp's would he have played this passively

[DaKlowen]

bet 1000 on flop, get it in on turn.

as played i check behind.

[Flushdraw]

As played, i think i shove the river. The only hand beating you is a really slow played house of 8s. If he's a flush, i'd have expected him to CRAI on the turn considering you've less than a PSB left, or shove the river rather than check back.

I've seen this line a lot with 88-JJ where an early position raiser will play passively with the overpair when played back at so i think there's value in shoving. I shove AA/KK and think about it with QQ/JJ. I think your bet sizing and stack make this a little tricky. I've make it 680 pre and about 880 on the flop so i'm setup with a PSB to shove the turn

[alanmc101]

bet 1000 on flop, get it in on turn.

as played i check behind.

lol

[Caf]

Ty all, yeah I figured there was value in shoving and that PPs make up more of his range after his turn flat but I'm not great in 3b pots tbh.

Also, I don't think his line is passive really btw, if he has an overpair. He's giving me a chance to bluff off my stack. If he c/r at any point he loses value from the times I'll barrel with two overs. I mean if he c/r the flop, he gets it in ahead v FDs only really and he could still be behind some of those. Surely c/c is standard there or do I play like a fish?

bet 1000 on flop, get it in on turn.

as played i check behind.

Are you serious when you post in this section? Do you play poker at all? Genuine Qs, always curious as to whether you're taking the piss when you post in a HH thread. Maybe get some coaching, all the cool kids are doing it.




Would be interested in hearing more thoughts if villains shoves because I have come across similar spots before.

If he open jams river i prolly fold, i think when he checks not shoving rivers missing value, from all those pps he can have he a lot.

While the action was on him I was considering what I'd do if he shoves, tbh I think I would have called for pretty much the same reasons that we value shove if checked, I mean he shouldn't have a FD but could easily turn a PP into a bluff or am I being a bit hopeful there?


Pretty tired so not sure if I'm even making sense, back after grind.

[Moneymaker]

I'd probably swear and fold if he shoves.

He really shouldn't be shoving worse for value(maybe a weirdly played KK or something). I'd need some kind of read that he can turn 66/77 type hands into bluffs to call a river shove. We don't have the Ad either so no reason he can't show up with Axd, KQd type hands.

As played i'd shove. I like your bet sizing too.

[Degenerate88]

Shove the river imo. tbh I think it would be a sick check back considering stack sizes.You have just over a half pot bet left and I think it is difficult for his check calling range on the river to be weighted towards hands that beat you. I.e he will show up with PP's a lot more than 88 for a house or Akdd AQdd for a flush ect imo. If he shoves river it is a lot closer to folding. I probably sigh call though thinking that some or enough of his range may be a stubborn smaller PP (55 -77) being turned into a bluff or maybe a somewhat merged value bet/ bluff with 99 - QQ. A tad optimistic though i know.

[Kie Diddy]

[QUOTE=Caf;491475]Ty all, yeah I figured there was value in shoving and that PPs make up more of his range after his turn flat but I'm not great in 3b pots tbh.

Also, I don't think his line is passive really btw, if he has an overpair. He's giving me a chance to bluff off my stack. If he c/r at any point he loses value from the times I'll barrel with two overs. I mean if he c/r the flop, he gets it in ahead v FDs only really and he could still be behind some of those. Surely c/c is standard there or do I play like a fish?

I agree with you here, it is passive but is a standard line with 66-1010 imo, it allows him to pot control/get away (sometimes) & trap aggro player who barrell AK/AQ s
obv he can hav fd but I'dbe surprsied @ this line.
I dunno bout d standard in a109 buy -in but at the lower-stakes im shoving here nearly always and expecting to get called buy 77/(88-grr)/99/TT a lot

[Winning!]

wp, now shove. Lots of PP's that aren't folding and I wouldn't expect flushes to be a huge part of his range after this line when he doesn't c/r flop or shove river. If he had shoved river I prob rage fold

[Caf]

Ty all. I'm obv a bit too much of a station to be calling if he shoves there. TBH I posted a HH in the BBV a while and got feedback that made me realise I was missing value in a few of spots. I probably would have been checking back before then but shoved and villain called with JJ.

So here's a couple more river decisions that are playing on my mind, not really sure if I played either well OTR...

Hand 2(15k $30r):

60/120

UTG+1(8.1k) opens to 325,
Folded to hero(8.6k) in BB who 3bets to 960 w/A,A and UTG+1 calls.

Flop(1,980): K,4,9

Hero bets 720 and villain calls

Turn(3,420): 7

Hero bets 1,320 and villain calls

River(6,060): Q

Hero? Hero has 5,650 behind and covers villain's 5,105.


Hand 3(10k $50FO):

250/500/50(8 handed)

Hero(23.8k) opens to 1k in the CO w/5,5
Button folds and SB(38.6k) calls as does the BB(22.5k)

Flop(3,400): A,2,5

2 checks and hero bets 1,990 and both blinds flat

Turn(9370): 4

2 checks and hero bets 4,470, SB calls and BB folds

River(18,310): 8

SB checks and Hero?

Hero has 16,342 behind and SB covers with c.31k.


Thoughts?

[Kie Diddy]

hand 1 is gross as KQ make up a huge part of his range, pretty hard to contemlate c/folding & kq is never checking back so prob shoving..

hand 2 is very player dependent has villain c/called with medium strength hands wen oop? i prob b/fold c.7000 as an A calls and a raise is never a bluff imo so can fold to a shove with reasonble no. of bb left behind (this is v. player dependent i.e 1 not good enough to realise what your doing and turns Ax into a bluff!) i think checking back is ok though

[Arazi]

I'm happy to go broke in hand 3 so I value bet about 5200 and call any shove.

I like ur sizing in hand 2, hate the river. I check hoping he checks back which means we win, if he bets we beat very little (AK?).

[TheWitchDoctor]

In hand 2 we are first to act yes?

Just going to throw this out there but I like 1300-1500 bet fold I think if we push this river he will fold out all his kj k10 kx we beat but will call that much and if he had us beat already or hit kq he'll push and we still have 30 bigs he'd have to be pretty sick player to turn a value hand on the river into a bluff to fold out better.. Thoughts on this?

[Winning!]

Hand 1: More on flop/turn to set up a decent size river shove. As played I think maybe b/f 999 or something like that, villain is never shoving w less than 2P, he cant have any busted draws w/o having gained showdown value.

Hand 2: b/c more on the turn, b/c like 8888 on the river. Wouldn't be too concerned by 3x or flushes if shoved on cos worse 2P/sets may pile also, we mostly just get snapped off by Ax.