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Originally posted by nicnicnic View PostI jammed he had KK, was chatting with Derek Murray straight after the hand and he suggested it was a much more interesting spot then it seems on the face of it.
I think I'd much rather be calling a shove here from the SB and I do think given effective stack here, a lot of the time a flat is a big hand, not often enough to make it a fold but feel its closer then many think.
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Originally posted by alanmc101 View PostThink this is overthinkin this spot a bit, the sb's flatting range has got to be super wide here, tons of ax's and some kx's. The times he's gettin trappy with aa/kk/qq will occur so rarely that u cant worry about it. The fact that he hasnt rejammed does not equal the top of his range, its actually the opposite.
I never said it's a fold here btw, but I think it can be in this spot read dependent.Last edited by nicnicnic; 06-12-11, 22:21.
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Originally posted by nicnicnic View PostI disagree with this, I think the majority of people posting in this thread anyway, will flat premiums and Jam wide. For me anyway in SB here my calling range is vastly smaller the my shoving range.
I never said it's a fold here btw, but I think it can be in this spot read dependent.
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Originally posted by alanmc101 View PostWell it would clearly be a fold if you're the sb in this spot given what you've just revealed! But with 35bbs and the bb having me covered im not jamming wide here, theres no need to put your whole stack in jeopardy here with a marginal hand in case the bb wakes up with a monster. I'm flatting here with premiums and my marginal calling hands, then easily folding the bottom of my range when the bb gets involved.
so your never raising here in the SB ?
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I think I much prefer reshipping AQ here than 99/TT also because we have blockers for AA/QQ, which decreases the combinations of "trapping hands", so most of the times we are crashing SB and still have 30% the few times he turn over KK.
If we are here discussing whether shipping or not AQ, then the SB should really call or reship superlight there vs us, given that we call only with top 3%.
Never folding."Poker isn’t about default strategies, it’s about exploiting your opponent's bad tendencies"
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Originally posted by nicnicnic View Postso your never raising here in the SB ?
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Originally posted by tglynn View PostQuestion: What's our range to jam here? It's gotta be tight enough as we don't have any fold equity over SB. A10s+?
This thread really amazed me and showed up some supposedly good players as lacking in intellect, instinct and mathematics.
Poster it might be a good exercise for you to look at hands like A10, AJ and AQ and see how poorly they flop 3 ways.
With pretty much no chips invested here this is a fold. I'd only jam AK, JJ here (perhaps 10s), and I wouldn't feel good about the AK either.
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Originally posted by Arazi View PostUnreal stuff!
This thread really amazed me and showed up some supposedly good players as lacking in intellect, instinct and mathematics.
Poster it might be a good exercise for you to look at hands like A10, AJ and AQ and see how poorly they flop 3 ways.
With pretty much no chips invested here this is a fold. I'd only jam AK, JJ here (perhaps 10s), and I wouldn't feel good about the AK either.Last edited by tglynn; 08-12-11, 21:22.
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Originally posted by Arazi View PostUnreal stuff!
This thread really amazed me and showed up some supposedly good players as lacking in intellect, instinct and mathematics.
Poster it might be a good exercise for you to look at hands like A10, AJ and AQ and see how poorly they flop 3 ways.
With pretty much no chips invested here this is a fold. I'd only jam AK, JJ here (perhaps 10s), and I wouldn't feel good about the AK either.
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I meant to be back here sooner,
Originally posted by imidg View Postthe sb flating here with anything less than aa kk maybe qq is such a bad play leaving himself open to a bb shoveOriginally posted by imidg View Postcompletely agree at least 80% of the time ur walking in AA KK. even bad players flat with aa kk ,rather call a shove from the sb than shove here. so imo fold is the right play
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Originally posted by Arazi View PostUnreal stuff!
This thread really amazed me and showed up some supposedly good players as lacking in intellect, instinct and mathematics.
Poster it might be a good exercise for you to look at hands like A10, AJ and AQ and see how poorly they flop 3 ways.
With pretty much no chips invested here this is a fold. I'd only jam AK, JJ here (perhaps 10s), and I wouldn't feel good about the AK either.
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Do the maths. I'll stand over each of those statements. We can all learn alot from this thread, I know I have, but some (and I'm not aiming this @ you) have their head so far up their arse that they'll never learn.
I looked at a few scenarios 2 or 3 days ago so these mightn't be spot on and I know there's sidepots to take into account but in order to win it all we need 42% or so.
If we're against 2 smaller pairs we have 33%.
If we have SB dominated and button has ATC we're only 47% or so. And if we have them both dominated we're just over 50%.
If either of them have the big pair we're crushed.
AQ doesn't play well enough 3 handed aipf to make statements like "we have SB's range crushed", IMO anyway.
Sometimes in tournament poker it pays to be prudent.
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Originally posted by ikilldurrr1 View PostDid you look at the times the sb folds his widish range to our shove and we go up against the button with the extra dead money in the pot.
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Originally posted by Arazi View PostI looked at a few scenarios 2 or 3 days ago so these mightn't be spot on and I know there's sidepots to take into account but in order to win it all we need 42% or so.
You can't mention that there are sides pots then go ahead and completly ignore it for the purposes of calcs. The numbers above are useless.
Over two thirds of the chips are in a heads up pot which massively effects the odds needed.
You are assuming that he never folds to our shove (i'm happy enough to assume that and put the tiems he does down as +EV for me)
You need to do two calcs
28*[equity 3-way] + 54[equity v SB] - 35
Can somebody do a stove on some ranges for me.
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Originally posted by Mellor View PostI meant to be back here sooner,
The fact that you are giving him of a lol-range of KK+ 80% of the time and want to fold a strong hand is exactly the reason why its a good play to flat wide.
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I didn't ignore it in my calcs, I done the calcs in my head when replying to your post on page one and unfortunately I didn't strain my brain hard enough to take the sidepot calcs into consideration, I just said that they'd prob give me a multiplier of 1.15/1.3 but that prudently I'd fold. I didn't properly consider SB folding which was obviously a mistake.
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Arazi this is the 2nd thread you've questioned people's intellect. Give it a rest mate, as you've said yourself these threads are for people to learn. This happens a lot easier and without as much derailment when people question each others theories and arguments, not their intellect.Pining for Wa'erford
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Originally posted by imidg View Postmy 80% was abit rash. but my line on this spot is i dont want to lose over half my stack by shoving into trouble. you prob dont take me seriously but i grind a living mtt online and would never call the button shove if i was sb unless i was trapping
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@imidg
What you would do in the SBs spot is largely irrelevant. We are only interested in what other players do.
@Azari
You say you didn't ignore it. But then say you didn't take the sidepot calcs into consideration???
I'm not saying you should have in you head, i'm just pointing out that the side pot changes the 42% figure a lot. We never have 42% 3 way with AQ.
33% vs 42% is a bit difference.
It's basically a question of ranges, if peoples opinions of what to do are differing so much I'd imagine that the opinions on ranges will equally differ. So no calc will resolve anything.Last edited by Mellor; 08-12-11, 23:45.
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Originally posted by sligboi View PostArazi this is the 2nd thread you've questioned people's intellect. Give it a rest mate, as you've said yourself these threads are for people to learn. This happens a lot easier and without as much derailment when people question each others theories and arguments, not their intellect.
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Originally posted by Mellor View Post@imidg
What you would do in the SBs spot is largely irrelevant. We are only interested in what other players do.
@Azari
You say you didn't ignore it. But then say you didn't take the sidepot calcs into consideration???
I'm not saying you should have in you head, i'm just pointing out that the side pot changes the 42% figure a lot. We never have 42% 3 way with AQ.
33% vs 42% is a bit difference.
It's basically a question of ranges, if peoples opinions of what to do are differing so much I'd imagine that the opinions on ranges will equally differ. So no calc will resolve anything.
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Originally posted by Arazi View PostDo the maths. I'll stand over each of those statements. We can all learn alot from this thread, I know I have, but some (and I'm not aiming this @ you) have their head so far up their arse that they'll never learn.
I looked at a few scenarios 2 or 3 days ago so these mightn't be spot on and I know there's sidepots to take into account but in order to win it all we need 42% or so.
If we're against 2 smaller pairs we have 33%.
If we have SB dominated and button has ATC we're only 47% or so. And if we have them both dominated we're just over 50%.
If either of them have the big pair we're crushed.
AQ doesn't play well enough 3 handed aipf to make statements like "we have SB's range crushed", IMO anyway.
Sometimes in tournament poker it pays to be prudent.
I think once someone works out the numbers for this Arazi you will see a new light on this spot and maybe perhaps you will be the one who is more open minded to a shove with AQ because it's going to be closer to a shove than you think.
Also, the fact that this is the Ipops where you have about a thousand recreational players playing the event it's certainly a reshoving spot as it's one of the biggest leaks in a recreational players game. Even if the numbers come so close that maybe your line of thinking could be better play by a small margin, I still shove because in a field like this with it's size, fast structure, bad players and my edge knowing ranges better than most I've got to stick it in here, all these variables are apart of this hand and will without notes saying otherwise make this a +ev shove.
Now where's the LaoisHammer to stove this shit
Apologies for my intro tone to the thread too, was no need for it. I was on hooker tilt, you no when your like fuck this shit, fuck that, fuck everything & everyone sort of tilt?..well yeap that's the one.Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.
My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666
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reason i joined/post IPB so i can see analysis/viewpoints fron accomplised (spelt wrong fek it) players and although I do get the odd 'lol' and '^^' comment i am not deterred..
so can you clarify the shove?
1. is it to isolate small stack?
2. are you happy if sb calls?
3. are you happy to 'race' sb ?
4. i know you wont be results orientated but surely stack sizes come into play?
i suggested a flat and assess flop with a 50% 'intent' to shove the rest on flop
this i felt gave another option
as we know he had KK now then sb obv shove flop but if he (sb) had small/med pair and flop was 'dangerous' ..after all you didnt shove so your range is very wide from pairs to connectors etc etc which then opens up the sb check then you shove option
as you stated (blaaah) a lot of ppl in this wont be thinking that deep and also looking at not busting and cashing rather than going deep
feel free to slate my thgts as thats only way i will learn but remember the LOL's at min raising not so long ago !!
I have a tough skin...go for it
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Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View PostNow where's the LaoisHammer to stove this shitOriginally posted by Mellor View PostYou need to do two calcs
28*[equity 3-way] + 54[equity v SB] - 35
Can somebody do a stove on some ranges for me.
So I gave SB a range of 77+|AT+|KQ (7.5%) of hands and the button 60%. These were just an estimate in my head of we prob need.
Our equity is 35.6% and 50.3% for 3-way and heads up respectively. Which works out at
28*[.356] + 54[.503] - 35
=+2.1k
If you adjust the SB range to 99+ it doesn't change out equity a huge amount. And its still +EV. He'd need a much tighter range to make shoving -EV
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Originally posted by TheDrunkenOne View Postreason i joined/post IPB so i can see analysis/viewpoints fron accomplised (spelt wrong fek it) players and although I do get the odd 'lol' and '^^' comment i am not deterred..
so can you clarify the shove?
1. is it to isolate small stack?
2. are you happy if sb calls?
3. are you happy to 'race' sb ?
4. i know you wont be results orientated but surely stack sizes come into play?
i suggested a flat and assess flop with a 50% 'intent' to shove the rest on flop
this i felt gave another option
as we know he had KK now then sb obv shove flop but if he (sb) had small/med pair and flop was 'dangerous' ..after all you didnt shove so your range is very wide from pairs to connectors etc etc which then opens up the sb check then you shove option
as you stated (blaaah) a lot of ppl in this wont be thinking that deep and also looking at not busting and cashing rather than going deep
feel free to slate my thgts as thats only way i will learn but remember the LOL's at min raising not so long ago !!
I have a tough skin...go for it
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Originally posted by ViperEyeIRL View PostI think I much prefer reshipping AQ here than 99/TT also because we have blockers for AA/QQ, which decreases the combinations of "trapping hands", so most of the times we are crashing SB and still have 30% the few times he turn over KK.
If we are here discussing whether shipping or not AQ, then the SB should really call or reship superlight there vs us, given that we call only with top 3%.
Never folding.
You have 35% equity with AQ, 44% with TT - that's a pretty big difference
104,503,543,452 games 98.745 secs 1,058,317,316 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 44.062% 43.58% 00.48% 45540043582 506610209.33 { TT }
Hand 1: 20.079% 19.58% 00.50% 20462173917 521343813.83 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 95s+, 85s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K2o+, Q4o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o, 76o }
Hand 2: 35.858% 35.20% 00.66% 36788256353 685115576.83 { 66+, A8s+, KJs+, A9o+, KQo }
11,259,373,356 games 11.957 secs 941,655,378 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.738% 39.35% 00.40% 4430106059 44638021.67 { 99 }
Hand 1: 21.735% 21.31% 00.43% 2399256723 48263770.17 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 95s+, 85s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K2o+, Q4o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o, 76o }
Hand 2: 38.527% 37.83% 00.70% 4259293391 79186145.17 { 66+, A8s+, KJs+, A9o+, KQo }
---
2,411,156,286 games 3.005 secs 802,381,459 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.435% 33.59% 02.85% 809877549 68621124.83 { AQo }
Hand 1: 29.118% 28.93% 00.19% 697477093 4593674.33 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 95s+, 85s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K2o+, Q4o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o, 76o }
Hand 2: 34.448% 31.54% 02.91% 760406507 70180337.83 { 66+, A8s+, KJs+, A9o+, KQo }
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Originally posted by Arazi View PostNo but that's one of the things that I'm taking from the thread. In my first post I think I said that the SB would have to be a clusterfuck to call 25% of his stack and then fold to a BB shove, yet later in the thread 2 of the posters I'd respect most said that they would play the hand in such a way with the bottom of their range.
As for bein in the bb here, on reflection its probably closer than most people including myself said initially, but im never foldin aq in this spot, jus too nitty for me. You have to go with 99+ here. Although i might be a clusterfuck.
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Originally posted by Arazi View PostIn my first post I think I said that the SB would have to be a clusterfuck to call 25% of his stack and then fold to a BB shove, yet later in the thread 2 of the posters I'd respect most said that they would play the hand in such a way with the bottom of their range.
Originally posted by ghostface ste View PostWe can make 100"c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"
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Originally posted by smoothcall View PostWhat do we do if the SB flats playing 20 bigs, 23 bigs, 30 bigs 40 bigs 60 bigs??Huh, Math my dear boy is nothing more than the lesbian sister of biology.
My Poker Blog http://jason-tompkins.blogspot.com
My twitter http://twitter.com/#!/blaaaaaah666
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Originally posted by blaaaaaaah View PostI am Captain Prudence in tournys! Yet I still agree with shoving with AQ over the top of sb flat, especially if it is online as there a so many players who just so below par in these spots, they see 10bb button shove and will flat any ace,kj kq and any pair, without even thinking what if bb reshoves and when bb does shove they fold everytime unless they have TT, Ak or better. Thats alot of times you get hu with dominated button with extra equity. I will say tho AQ is the bottom of my range here for a reshove.
I think once someone works out the numbers for this Arazi you will see a new light on this spot and maybe perhaps you will be the one who is more open minded to a shove with AQ because it's going to be closer to a shove than you think.
Also, the fact that this is the Ipops where you have about a thousand recreational players playing the event it's certainly a reshoving spot as it's one of the biggest leaks in a recreational players game. Even if the numbers come so close that maybe your line of thinking could be better play by a small margin, I still shove because in a field like this with it's size, fast structure, bad players and my edge knowing ranges better than most I've got to stick it in here, all these variables are apart of this hand and will without notes saying otherwise make this a +ev shove.
Now where's the LaoisHammer to stove this shit
Apologies for my intro tone to the thread too, was no need for it. I was on hooker tilt, you no when your like fuck this shit, fuck that, fuck everything & everyone sort of tilt?..well yeap that's the one.
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Fold obvFoldaramus et foldarabimus
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Originally posted by Hectorjelly View PostTotally wrong, people put way too much importance in blockers IMO
You have 35% equity with AQ, 44% with TT - that's a pretty big difference
104,503,543,452 games 98.745 secs 1,058,317,316 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 44.062% 43.58% 00.48% 45540043582 506610209.33 { TT }
Hand 1: 20.079% 19.58% 00.50% 20462173917 521343813.83 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 95s+, 85s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K2o+, Q4o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o, 76o }
Hand 2: 35.858% 35.20% 00.66% 36788256353 685115576.83 { 66+, A8s+, KJs+, A9o+, KQo }
11,259,373,356 games 11.957 secs 941,655,378 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.738% 39.35% 00.40% 4430106059 44638021.67 { 99 }
Hand 1: 21.735% 21.31% 00.43% 2399256723 48263770.17 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 95s+, 85s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K2o+, Q4o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o, 76o }
Hand 2: 38.527% 37.83% 00.70% 4259293391 79186145.17 { 66+, A8s+, KJs+, A9o+, KQo }
---
2,411,156,286 games 3.005 secs 802,381,459 games/sec
Board:
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.435% 33.59% 02.85% 809877549 68621124.83 { AQo }
Hand 1: 29.118% 28.93% 00.19% 697477093 4593674.33 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 95s+, 85s+, 74s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K2o+, Q4o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o, 76o }
Hand 2: 34.448% 31.54% 02.91% 760406507 70180337.83 { 66+, A8s+, KJs+, A9o+, KQo }
TT certainly performs better than AQ vs player 1 range, but player 1 is not our main concern in this spot.Last edited by ViperEyeIRL; 10-12-11, 02:06."Poker isn’t about default strategies, it’s about exploiting your opponent's bad tendencies"
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