Could I get away from this?

[Four of a Kind]

Spot last night in CPT game. Down to 19 from 56 players. Blinds 800/1600 100 Moved to a new table with 55k stack. 5 Hands later, I'm on the button and there's 3 limper's in before me. I've 78 and decide to make my first limp of the night.

Pot: 9,600
Flop 772

Checks all around to me, and I fire out 5,300 thinking that I'm good here and happy to add nearly 20% to my stack if it goes uncontested.

Big blind, who has me just about covered then 3bets to 14,700....folds around to me.

Whats your line? Big blind is someone who've I known a few years but havn't really played much with him.

[BallymoreChris]

call, call his bet on the turn and call his shove on the river.

[Four of a Kind]

SPOILER

I shoved for 50k and he eventually called with 7 10 for a better kicker and out I go.

[SatNav]

should of raised your button then, tut tut!!!

[8611]

Fold due to thread title

The answer is you could have gotten away from it but you would have needed to have known more about villain, i.e., will he ever do this without a 7. I mean you could conceivably fold here but you'd really need to know enough about villain to make that play, and be pretty sure he's not doing this with diamonds, a pocket pair or a two. You can't presume you're beaten, in fact, on the assumption the standard is poor you have to presume the contrary.

[8611]

eventually

you'll know for the next time against this villain. if you'd see him play a monster similarly cautiously previously then you could quite easily have gotten away from this.

[Four of a Kind]

I give it a long thought before shoving. I did feel that check raising a 7 would be a little to face up from the villain. The flushdraw or air was what I'd decided on, which turned out as neither.

[BallymoreChris]

Why did you shove?

[Flushdraw]

Why did you shove?

Because he's a donk

[Four of a Kind]

Why did you shove?

Well main reason was if he had air then he was going no further anyways and I'd take down decent pot there and then, without having to worry about a diamond falling on the turn. But I also realised straight away after that I shouldn't be worried about the draw.

It did enter my head that he could have a 7, but it was going in regardless then.

I know that my shove gets weaker hands to fold and better hands to call the majority of the time...so why shove. Rush of blood to the neck and lack of live poker the past few months.

[Laois Hammer]

Well main reason was if he had air then he was going no further anyways

If you just call hes already gone further with his air, as far as the turn.
Let them spaz out with there air when they convince themselves you called with a flush draw. They will also level themselves with overpars some of the time i reckon.

[Winning!]

Calling the flop c/r with the intention of calling turn/river shoves is the standard/best line.

Did you really think posting this hand would garner some magical insight on how to avoid going broke with 7x on 772? It simply isn't going to happen. Bad beats/coolers dont add anything to this forum, even under the guise of strategy, so in future it might be best to ponder the triviality of a given spot before posting it for sympathy.

[Laois Hammer]

Who ordered a zinger burger?

[Delooners]

When you call with 78 suited on the button and the flop hits you right smack bang in the face like that, you're never ever getting away from it.

If I was in the same spot, the fact that two sevens flopped and there's one in my own hand would lead me to think that its highly less likely that he holds the case seven with a better kicker......you have to assume you have the best hand here.

I do agree with the guys above though, you're missing out on a whole ton of value by shoving over his c/r on the flop.

Because he has c/r the flop, he's going to barrell again on nearly any turn card most of the time so I dont really agree when you say he's not goin any further with air...

You should be looking to milk the mo-fo for all he's worth!!!

Just unlucky to be coolered is all.

[Four of a Kind]

Calling the flop c/r with the intention of calling turn/river shoves is the standard/best line.

Did you really think posting this hand would garner some magical insight on how to avoid going broke with 7x on 772? It simply isn't going to happen. Bad beats/coolers dont add anything to this forum, even under the guise of strategy, so in future it might be best to ponder the triviality of a given spot before posting it for sympathy.

I wasn't looking for sympathy ya tool box of a prick. It's muppets like you talking the way you do that adds nothing to the site imo.

"it might be best to ponder the triviality of a given spot before posting it for sympathy"..... Just Lol at you.

[Four of a Kind]

When you call with 78 suited on the button and the flop hits you right smack bang in the face like that, you're never ever getting away from it.

If I was in the same spot, the fact that two sevens flopped and there's one in my own hand would lead me to think that its highly less likely that he holds the case seven with a better kicker......you have to assume you have the best hand here.

I do agree with the guys above though, you're missing out on a whole ton of value by shoving over his c/r on the flop.

Because he has c/r the flop, he's going to barrell again on nearly any turn card most of the time so I dont really agree when you say he's not goin any further with air...

You should be looking to milk the mo-fo for all he's worth!!!

Just unlucky to be coolered is all.

Agree totally. The fact that I shoved instead of flatting and letting him fire again on the flop which he probably would have as you said, was my mistake. I don't mind getting coolered but misplaying a hand could have been prevented.

[danutpeddler]

Winning adds a lot to the theory section and is just being harsh but true in this instance.

The hand is a very obvious cooler.

He didn't 3bet the flop btw. You 3bet shoved!

See you learned something

[Four of a Kind]

Winning adds a lot to the theory section and is just being harsh but true in this instance.

The hand is a very obvious cooler.

He didn't 3bet the flop btw. You 3bet shoved!

See you learned something

Yeah, and exactly why does someone like him feel it's necessary to talk down to others?

[Wesley Harms]

Ya I don't think Winning is having a go at you personally Carlo, it's the situation it's just you flopped trips on a 772 board 30 odd big blinds effective. Its a story for the BBV unfortunately.

[NewApproach]

I wasn't looking for sympathy ya tool box of a prick. It's muppets like you talking the way you do that adds nothing to the site imo.

"it might be best to ponder the triviality of a given spot before posting it for sympathy"..... Just Lol at you.

Tbf Carlo Winning! has proved himself to be arguably the best poster on here in recent months, and one of the things I like about his posts is that if he thinks a hand is standard without anything to discuss or debate he will say so.

[Wesley Harms]

When you call with 78 suited on the button and the flop hits you right smack bang in the face like that, you're never ever getting away from it.

If I was in the same spot, the fact that two sevens flopped and there's one in my own hand would lead me to think that its highly less likely that he holds the case seven with a better kicker......you have to assume you have the best hand here.

I do agree with the guys above though, you're missing out on a whole ton of value by shoving over his c/r on the flop.

Because he has c/r the flop, he's going to barrell again on nearly any turn card most of the time so I dont really agree when you say he's not goin any further with air...

You should be looking to milk the mo-fo for all he's worth!!!

Just unlucky to be coolered is all.

So you want him to flat the flop raise and leave less than a pot sized bet behind, ya your right that doesn't look strong at all, I think I'd lash the turn with nothing here aswell

[Four of a Kind]

Ya I don't think Winning is having a go at you personally Carlo, it's the situation it's just you flopped trips on a 772 board 30 odd big blinds effective. Its a story for the BBV unfortunately.

Tbf Carlo Winning! has proved himself to be arguably the best poster on here in recent months, and one of the things I like about his posts is that if he thinks a hand is standard without anything to discuss or debate he will say so.

And I've no problem with that. What I have a problem with is him talking to me as if I posted this here looking for sympathy. Its exactly that kind of shite that other players I know refuse to join up here on IPB. I don't post here in the tourney section much(this is my 3rd post) and I certainly never posted one single post before looking for sympathy, either here or on the other boards over the past 6 years.

I know I played the hand badly, and I wanted to see how others would go about it, regardless of what the villain had. And that's the only reason I posted it here. Simple as that.

[Ziggin&Zaggin]

Calling "Winning" a tool box of a prick is just ridic funny. I think you should go read some of the posts he makes to certain spots and in fairness he has a good strat mind. He may not be nice about it but he is honest and sometimes thats the hard part for ppl to graple with.

[NewApproach]

About the decision to call flop or shove, does no one else think that considering stack sizes if we have a flush draw here we never ever flat call, so by shoving the villian will level himself to thinking our 3b shoving range is made up of flushdraws quite a bit and therefore end up calling with pair hands? Flat calling his c/r looks super strong to me.

[Four of a Kind]

Calling "Winning" a tool box of a prick is just ridic funny. I think you should go read some of the posts he makes to certain spots and in fairness he has a good strat mind. He may not be nice about it but he is honest and sometimes thats the hard part for ppl to graple with.

I don't question his thinking or intelligence at all, or anyone else's for that matter. And I do apologize for using that phrase above as well...It's not my style in fairness.

[Wesley Harms]

I don't question his thinking or intelligence at all, or anyone else's for that matter. And I do apologize for using that phrase above as well...It's not my style in fairness.

Ya 'cunt' is more your style

[Four of a Kind]

Ya 'cunt' is more your style

Now you said it!!!

[gorrrr72]

And I've no problem with that. What I have a problem with is him talking to me as if I posted this here looking for sympathy. Its exactly that kind of shite that other players I know refuse to join up here on IPB. I don't post here in the tourney section much(this is my 3rd post) and I certainly never posted one single post before looking for sympathy, either here or on the other boards over the past 6 years.

I know I played the hand badly, and I wanted to see how others would go about it, regardless of what the villain had. And that's the only reason I posted it here. Simple as that.

Fair enough, I don't want to get on your case....just general advice to anyone reading, don't post result of hand (spoilered or not) until there has been a fair amount of feedback.

In this case you didn't need the spoiler because of the title of the post, we all knew it was a bad beat before reading the result.

I didn't post advice because I couldn't post objectively after reading title & result.

Other than that, post more hands, the advice from most posters is top class imo. I know I am always learning and it gives you a general feeling of how the game is evolving.

[anymorejokes]

About the decision to call flop or shove, does no one else think that considering stack sizes if we have a flush draw here we never ever flat call, so by shoving the villian will level himself to thinking our 3b shoving range is made up of flushdraws quite a bit and therefore end up calling with pair hands? Flat calling his c/r looks super strong to me.

Ya that might be the best line if his range was just made up of pair hands. Think calling the c/r and getting it on the turn/river is the best line as was said by a few below as villain is going to level himself with air/flushdraws/pairs.

Calling the c/r may look super strong to you but a lot of cpt players wont get this. They may have found out where their at with a pair if you shove

[peterswellman]

I think the biggest problem with this is limping pre.. It's such a good spot to raise in position man. We have a hand that flops reasonably well and we can c-bet tid alot. Maybe even take it down pre as there is already loads in the pot. If I'm going to play this I'll be raising pre for sure. For me it's a raise or fold and that's the key decision in the hand. The flop we're always getting the money in and it's a cooler. The only reason I might limp here would be with a small pair trying to set.

Fwiw, I don't think anyone should be berated for posting a hand. No matter how tribal it might seem to some. Just my 2 cents

[Guest]

In fairness Winning's post can easily be interpreted as condescending. If someone is posting a hand, then they weren't sure how to play it. Just because it's standard to one person, doesn't mean it's standard to everyone. One of the best things to come out of coaching isn't how to play the big pots, it's where the coach spots small leaks you never knew you had. Maybe F-O-A-K was unsure about ranges in this spot and thought it might be close to a fold. If someone is posting with the right mentality then they shouldn't be derided for doing so, no matter how trivial the hand is.

[Four of a Kind]

I think the biggest problem with this is limping pre.. It's such a good spot to raise in position man. We have a hand that flops reasonably well and we can c-bet tid alot. Maybe even take it down pre as there is already loads in the pot. If I'm going to play this I'll be raising pre for sure. For me it's a raise or fold and that's the key decision in the hand. The flop we're always getting the money in and it's a cooler. The only reason I might limp here would be with a small pair trying to set.

Fwiw, I don't think anyone should be berated for posting a hand. No matter how tribal it might seem to some. Just my 2 cents

I sorted this out with winning btw. All good again.
I agree that limping in pre caused a lot of this trouble. I hadn't limped once before this hand so I thought 78 sooted was worth a limp. But yeah it was just a bad time to do it.

[GAWA9]

Calling the flop c/r with the intention of calling turn/river shoves is the standard/best line.

Did you really think posting this hand would garner some magical insight on how to avoid going broke with 7x on 772? It simply isn't going to happen. Bad beats/coolers dont add anything to this forum, even under the guise of strategy, so in future it might be best to ponder the triviality of a given spot before posting it for sympathy.

qft

[Winning!]

No offense was meant, I've nothing against OP personally. I apologise to those who dont care much for harsh advise, but I've taken my fair share and its helped me improve enormously in my thinking. The hardest hitting lessons are usually the ones that stick in your mind longest.

[Hectorjelly]

There are loads of problems here.

First of all, your mistake wasn't in limping preflop. Humans have a need to create a narrative, and so we always look to blame something/someone if something goes wrong. Had you not limped, you would not of lost this hand, but it doesn't follow that limping was bad. You limp because you figure it has the highest EV, not because you can't possibly get stacked post flop. Limping may or may not be bad, but the fact that you wouldn't of been stacked is almost inconsequential. (Some guy made the same mistake in the WSOP final table thread)

Second, you fell into the trap of thinking you flopped a strong hand. Certainly it is reasonably strong, but once a player check raises you your hand is relatively weak, since you beat almost no value hand. (You beat worse sevens, but you are likely to chop with them). 5 people saw this flop for no raise, including the two blinds; anyone of them could have a seven.

Third, learn to develop a thicker skin. This hand may be important to you, but most people here read hand numerous hand threads ever day. Posting a hand where you flop trips with 30 blinds and get stacked, and also include the results in the subject line is not going to endear you to anyone. It's worth continuing to post hands though, as its one of the best ways to get better at poker.

[Four of a Kind]

There are loads of problems here.

First of all, your mistake wasn't in limping preflop. Humans have a need to create a narrative, and so we always look to blame something/someone if something goes wrong. Had you not limped, you would not of lost this hand, but it doesn't follow that limping was bad. You limp because you figure it has the highest EV, not because you can't possibly get stacked post flop. Limping may or may not be bad, but the fact that you wouldn't of been stacked is almost inconsequential. (Some guy made the same mistake in the WSOP final table thread)

Second, you fell into the trap of thinking you flopped a strong hand. Certainly it is reasonably strong, but once a player check raises you your hand is relatively weak, since you beat almost no value hand. (You beat worse sevens, but you are likely to chop with them). 5 people saw this flop for no raise, including the two blinds; anyone of them could have a seven.

Third, learn to develop a thicker skin. This hand may be important to you, but most people here read hand numerous hand threads ever day. Posting a hand where you flop trips with 30 blinds and get stacked, and also include the results in the subject line is not going to endear you to anyone. It's worth continuing to post hands though, as its one of the best ways to get better at poker.

Fair enough. Point taken. As I said I don't post hands here, so the title and spoiler giving the game away was silly.

[8611]

Limping may or may not be bad, but the fact that you wouldn't of been stacked is almost inconsequential.

Not entirely true because hero raising would significantly narrow villains range to exclude any 7s we beat.

[blaaaaaaah]

Calling the flop c/r with the intention of calling turn/river shoves is the standard/best line.

Did you really think posting this hand would garner some magical insight on how to avoid going broke with 7x on 772? It simply isn't going to happen. Bad beats/coolers dont add anything to this forum, even under the guise of strategy, so in future it might be best to ponder the triviality of a given spot before posting it for sympathy.

This is way too harsh on the chap, with over 1k posts I don't think a regular poster should be spoken to this way. It's obv four of kind is only getting back into the game, imo it's fine to post any hand in bbv, even if it is so obvious to others but that's what four of a kind wants to hear, it's just quick line check really and doesn't deserve to be talk down too even on a cooler hand like this.

Anyway fourofakind, yeah your nearly always going broke here esp as your on button means even less chance u will be leading strong. Anywho cooler let's all move on!

Just seen 2nd page now, still tho needless over the top response.

[CorkRichie]

Exact same thing happened me recently with 89 on a 994 flop hh Think I flatted his re-raise on flop. Called his bet on turn and called his shove. Just a cooler. Not much you can do but never ever folding..

[Mellor]

Not entirely true because hero raising would significantly narrow villains range to exclude any 7s we beat.

That's doesn't change to the point that HJ was making.

Limping is good if its +EV. Limping is bad if its -EV. That's all.
The fact that we can narrow ranges in raised hands doesn't change the EV of limping.

[NewApproach]

That's doesn't change to the point that HJ was making.

Limping is good if its +EV. Limping is bad if its -EV. That's all.
The fact that we can narrow ranges in raised hands doesn't change the EV of limping.

I don't agree with this, you have to weigh up all your options instead of simply deciding if one move is + ev or not without relating it to other options. Limping AA is + ev, that doesn't make it good.

[Mellor]

I don't agree with this, you have to weigh up all your options instead of simply deciding if one move is + ev or not without relating it to other options. Limping AA is + ev, that doesn't make it good.

Taking it to an extreme like AA means nothing really. AA is always a favourite, so raising AA is so much more EV, that giving up this value is obviously unnecessary. When the EV of raising and limping is much closer, the marginally lower EV (but still +EV) could still be considered an acceptable play. Regardless, that wasn't the point I was making in any shape or form. I was stating it rather simply as HJs point was missed. And he actually specified "highest" and not simply +EV.

To re-phrase
Limping is either good or bad for a multitude of factors.
The fact that, when we raise PF with 78s, we rarely get stacked on boards where we flop trips is not a deciding factor.

[8611]

I thought his point was that limping was completely unrelated to him stacking off.

Edit: Just read it again and its not what he was saying

[8611]

Limping is either good or bad for a multitude of factors.
The fact that, when we raise PF with 78s, we rarely get stacked on boards where we flop trips is not one of these factors.

Really? Do you accept that its a benefit of not limping, but youre just arguing that it isn't of itself enough to make a limp or a raise the appropriate play?

[markc]

Spot last night in CPT game. Down to 19 from 56 players. Blinds 800/1600 100 Moved to a new table with 55k stack. 5 Hands later, I'm on the button and there's 3 limper's in before me. I've 78 and decide to make my first limp of the night.

Pot: 9,600
Flop 772

Checks all around to me, and I fire out 5,300 thinking that I'm good here and happy to add nearly 20% to my stack if it goes uncontested.

Big blind, who has me just about covered then 3bets to 14,700....folds around to me.

Whats your line? Big blind is someone who've I known a few years but havn't really played much with him.

6 handed and everyone checks around to u after the flop. Once u bet this and get raised u gotta think u are up against a) A better 7 b) An over pair c) A flushdraw d) 22 . I'd more or less discount the overpair here and figure the other 3 more likely. 2 of those u hate to see. Against the flushdraw u would take the race. Ur also less likely to be up against the case 7 so most of the time here I think it's 22 or the flushdraw so its really a coinflip and with the stacks as they are ur never getting away. I also prefer a raise pre but I don't think the call is terrible or anything...

[Mellor]

Really? Do you accept that its a benefit of not limping, but youre just arguing that it isn't of itself enough to make a limp or a raise the appropriate play?

Yeah, of course. In the exact hand in the OP its would of been a benefit. And from there, it would have some effect of overall EV.
I was trying to highlight that the situation is pretty specific. And that over all situations, its almost inconsequential. I've edited above to say "deciding factor", as it's clearer.

[Downtown]

Players are way more spazzy than you would think from reading this thread. I think its a fairly simple call flop, and let him continue to bet at the pot. You can not get away from this.