qq e100nl 6 max nit fold?

[ikilldurrr1]

KQ NOT QQ OOPS.
This felt dirty but think I made correct fold. The donk better is a fish who never has anything strong when he leads here so happy to get it in v him. But villain is a 20/17/6 tag reg and i think i am crushed v his range. He can easily have me drawing dead already and the weakest hand he does this with is nfd. Doubtful he is shoving 99,10,jj and he definitely squeezes qq,kk,aa pre. What you think? Too nitty? I would have pretty similar stats to the sb.


Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $1(BB) Entraction
SB ($101)
BB ($41.44)
UTG ($99.50)
Hero ($141)
CO ($92.26)
BTN ($100)

Dealt to Hero K:heart: Q:heart:

fold, Hero raises to $3.50, CO calls $3.50, fold, SB calls $3, BB calls $2.50

FLOP ($14) 8:heart: 4:heart: 4:club:

SB checks, BB bets $10.50, Hero raises to $28, CO folds, SB raises to $97.76 (AI), BB folds, Hero folds

SB wins $77.50

[TheJiggaman]

I'd probably fold too.

I have him on AJ/A10 hearts maybe?

[AndyFatBastard]

Your flop raise is silly. Flat calling is a far better play, because you get huge odds for your flushdraw when the guys behind you also call with worse draws, 8s and pocket pairs. Further, anyone behind you with a 4 will have to raise, leaving you with an easy fold.

[ikilldurrr1]

meh. I like my raise. I have huge equity against fish and i can get people behind me to fold a lot of paired hands by repping a premium.

[NicoSanty]

Your flop raise is silly. Flat calling is a far better play, because you get huge odds for your flushdraw when the guys behind you also call with worse draws, 8s and pocket pairs. Further, anyone behind you with a 4 will have to raise, leaving you with an easy fold.

I disagree Andy. Considering his reads on the bb, anything other than raising here would be very bad. Remember we don't have a made hand yet and assuming everyone else folds and we go HU to the turn and miss, we probably have to fold to a shove and the times we hit, we will lose value from the bb's weaker holdings as a lot of turn cards may freeze him up and he will c/f.

Also raising here puts a lot of pressure on any players behind who have pairs like JJ-99 and a lot of these may fold out and we often take the pot there without hitting considering how bad the bb is. Bad players at this level will lead/fold a high % of the time in these spots.

I'd probably fold this aswel given the villain's percieved range in this spot.

[Hectorjelly]

Raise fold is the worst option. Raise Call and flat call are both much better.

[ikilldurrr1]

Do we have enough equity to call v his range? Anyone want to stove it? I think his range is 44, 88, 45s, a4s, and all the nut flush draws.

[Emmet]

Just flat. Really hate raise calling vs the non fish though. Can't see us having near enough equity?

He never shoves quads or a house there either!

[Maloney]

Do we have enough equity to call v his range? Anyone want to stove it? I think his range is 44, 88, 45s, a4s, and all the nut flush draws.

U think he jam's J10hh, J9hh, 910hh? ect

Cause if your narrowing it just to that range fold obv

[ikilldurrr1]

Easy fold with those hands. He's too abc to try anything crazy like that. i don't think its beyond him to shove house or quads making it look like fd so he can stack my perceived KK or AA.

[colquhom]

Id fold now and i don't think raising is bad. Its not like we expect to get jammed on very often by the reg, if at all and we get everyone, particularly the fish to fold a bunch of stuff we're ahead of.

[alanmc101]

i thin you played this perfectly, at these stakes that lead is usually weak so you were right to punish it with your huge draw and it is a fold in the end because your in awful shape vs the sbs shovin range there

[bohsman]

"The donk better is a fish who never has anything strong when he leads here so happy to get it in v him."

If he never has anything strong when he leads its unlikely he is going to get it in surely? If he is going to stack off with 22-TT or any 8x aswell as 4x definitely raise, otherwise call and let him bet the turn aswell.

If we flat the flop the cr is still coming so unless the fish comes along we're going to have to fold the flop anyway.

[ikilldurrr1]

That's true but i can see him calling the raise with a weaker fd or maybe just an 8 and poss folding to shove on turn. I meant he has no nutted hands.

[bohsman]

So flat and stack him on any KQ or heart turn if he bets again or bet and take it down any time he gives up on the turn.

Ignoring the SB and the CO for a minute how would you play AA in this spot?

[ikilldurrr1]

HU in pos against this guy, i don't mind raising or calling with aa as i think he will stack off light. Against a reg i would just call him down.

[bohsman]

HU in pos against this guy, i don't mind raising or calling with aa as i think he will stack off light. Against a reg i would just call him down.

Raising AA there would be throwing away money. If he is happy to donkbet weak hands into 4 players he is almost certainly betting the turn with his 2 outer, if that bet is big enough to pot commit him I would consider raising then. Just let bad aggressive players bet their stacks away, dont raise them to give them a chance to think about folding.

[ikilldurrr1]

I can't see how raising small to induce v this guy can be so bad but my standard would definitely be to just call yeah.

[AndyFatBastard]

I disagree Andy. Considering his reads on the bb, anything other than raising here would be very bad. Remember we don't have a made hand yet and assuming everyone else folds and we go HU to the turn and miss, we probably have to fold to a shove and the times we hit, we will lose value from the bb's weaker holdings as a lot of turn cards may freeze him up and he will c/f.

Also raising here puts a lot of pressure on any players behind who have pairs like JJ-99 and a lot of these may fold out and we often take the pot there without hitting considering how bad the bb is. Bad players at this level will lead/fold a high % of the time in these spots.

I'd probably fold this aswel given the villain's percieved range in this spot.

Yes we fold out better hands, but we lose value when we hit. We're much more likely to get paid in a multiway pot when we hit, so IMO it's better to play a strong draw passively in that situation. I think if the fish is as bad as described, then someone is calling behind a huge % of the time, and as above anyone with a 4 is raising, making this a profitable play with a lot less risk than raising.

[Mellor]

Do we have enough equity to call v his range? Anyone want to stove it? I think his range is 44, 88, 45s, a4s, and all the nut flush draws.

That's not his range, but it crushes you

i thin you played this perfectly, at these stakes that lead is usually weak so you were right to punish it with your huge draw and it is a fold in the end because your in awful shape vs the sbs shovin range there

Come on, its the second nut draw on a paired board. Yuo need to take up omaha if you think that's huge

[cardshark202]

I like the raise/fold here given reads. It's pretty rare to have to do it, definitely an exception to the rule but it's ok here.

[alanmc101]

That's not his range, but it crushes you


Come on, its the second nut draw on a paired board. Yuo need to take up omaha if you think that's huge

its huge draw vs one pair hands my friend

[Mellor]

My point is the nut draw, the fact that the board is pair mean our draw isn't huge.

I agree with raising, but i'm not doing it on the strength of our hand, but rather the fact that the villain is weak, basically a semi-bluff
I fold to the ship

[Line Us]

Can someone stove a reasonable range vs the sb there, doubtful he shoves 88 here with the fish still to act so leave that out. The few possible 4x combos, nut flush draws and maybe 2 combos of jj (to account for the times he shoves 99 through jj sometimes like this). Still a fold probably but its close I'd say. I'd say your flop raise is fine with the idea of stacking off vs the fish, its gonna be very rare that the sb shoves like this on a paired board.

[alanmc101]

My point is the nut draw, the fact that the board is pair mean our draw isn't huge.

I agree with raising, but i'm not doing it on the strength of our hand, but rather the fact that the villain is weak, basically a semi-bluff
I fold to the ship

its a fair point I'd certainly feel a lot better wit the nut draw here but 2nd nut draw is a strong hand vs the fish's weak lead regardless of the paired board, once the other plyr gets involved I'm done wit the hand too

[digiman]

The shover is going to have the NFD way more than anything else IMO.

[NicoSanty]

Yes we fold out better hands, but we lose value when we hit. We're much more likely to get paid in a multiway pot when we hit, so IMO it's better to play a strong draw passively in that situation. I think if the fish is as bad as described, then someone is calling behind a huge % of the time, and as above anyone with a 4 is raising, making this a profitable play with a lot less risk than raising.

Wrong. We are far less likely to get paid in a multi-way pot with anyway decent thinking players. Given the fish's description, he may pay us off but you're never gonna hit on the turn often enough in this spot to make profitable and the villain's turn bet is most likely gonna AI and then we have to fold. You have to get it in vs the fish in this spot given stack sizes, reads and when our equity is best vs his range, anything else is just awful.

I also don't know what makes you think that someone is calling behind a huge % of the time. Besides any good player that overcalls in this spot is setting off huge alarm bells for me.

[bohsman]

Given the fish's description, he may pay us off but you're never gonna hit on the turn often enough in this spot to make profitable and the villain's turn bet is most likely gonna AI and then we have to fold.

If we raise he almost certainly folds, if we flat we stack him around 30% of the time assuming he pushes and we can bet ourselves if he gives up.

Actually never noticed fishes stack size, it doesnt really matter, raise or flat planning on calling the turn push.

[NicoSanty]

If we raise he almost certainly folds, if we flat we stack him around 30% of the time assuming he pushes and we can bet ourselves if he gives up.

Actually never noticed fishes stack size, it doesnt really matter, raise or flat planning on calling the turn push.

The fish's lead gives us the chance to win the hand without showdown and fold out hands behind us that otherwise may call us down the times we miss. Your plan to call the flop and call any turn is too high variance and frankly it's awful.

Of course his stack size matters. He's more likely to stack off now than if he had 100bbs seen as he has a 1/4 of his stack out there. Fish at this level are that bad some will get stubborn and call it off with an 8 here.

It's unlikely he's going to give up because in his eyes, he will likely view our call weak most of the time and just shove the turn.

[bohsman]

If we flat and miss the turn he bets $27.44 into a $35 pot. How can we even consider folding there with 15 outs? I do play the hand the same as op btw but it doesnt really matter, the deeper the fish is the more inclined I am to flat to have a better chance of stacking him.

[NicoSanty]

If we flat and miss the turn he bets $27.44 into a $35 pot. How can we even consider folding there with 15 outs? I do play the hand the same as op btw but it doesnt really matter, the deeper the fish is the more inclined I am to flat to have a better chance of stacking him.

Your assuming we always have 15 outs. I doubt were getting price vs his range but I could be wrong.

I don't see how we ever stack him if all his leads are weak as the op suggests.

[bohsman]

Your assuming we always have 15 outs. I doubt were getting price vs his range but I could be wrong.

I don't see how we ever stack him if all his leads are weak as the op suggests.

As I see it we almost always have 15 outs, higher and lower flushdraws cancel each other out and I cant see him donking with 88 or 4x ever, QQ-AA also seem unlikely.

Assuming full stacks the only way to have a chance at stacking him is to let him take our flat call for weakness or AK and let him decide his 89o is the nuts.

[Winning!]

76hh/65hh are important hands to add to villains range, and given good TAG stats you could regularly expect him to squeeze pre in this spot with his bigger NFD hands; AJhh/AThh, prob 88+ also. Wouldn't completely discount them, but they're little less likely.

If he has the blade it seems pretty badly played, but tbh a good player might feel the only way to disguise his hand in this spot is to shove and make it look like a draw so it can't be discounted either.

I like the flop raise, and with better than 2:1 would now sigh call.