Hand from LAPT main event

[DrJFF]

Blinds are 100-200, 9handed,

have got a pretty bad table draw with SixthSense19 to my left like the only guy in uruguay who knows how to play MTTs, Humberto to his left, two very good Brazillain players and a 5knl reg who is the villain in this hand, two old South american men who hit nutz alot,

the villian has just arrived here and came straight from the airport he missed the first two hours play, all i know at this point is that he bought in direct and came straight from EPT copenhagen

he opens UTG to 550

i call in mid position wit KQdd, everyone else folds,

Flop 98dd4s, he checks quickly i fire 800, he calls straight away,

Turn Jd, he fires 1400, i call,

River 2s, villian fires 5200, hero thinks WTF

Stacks sizes are about 19kish,

i am wrong in thinking that this isn´t a snap call, it just seemed like such a weird spot,

thoughts on all streets

i know myself that preflop is quite marginal, but there had not been too much squeezing and since Sixthsense19 lost some chips, everyone else is playing quite honestly and the other tough brazillain lost some chips to the SA fishy guy as everyone did

[Hornswaggl]

pre flop i think is fine, bet on flop is fine also as if you dont hit i presume you lock up given the early nature, on the turn your call i think shows you want to pot control, at this stage i think you have to put him on AAd or AK with Ad either way when the river blanks and he bets i think its not only a call, but i would raise to 12 - 13k

Are you still in this? What was result of hand?

[Starvin Marvin]

Villain is never check calling AA on that flop.

What are you asking for results for, he wants peoples opinions.

I shove the river.

[Mellor]

I make the call abnd I'm hoping to see the phony flush or a set

I shove the river.

What hands do you think he calls with that we beat?
I think shoving is a losing play long term

[BrianByrne]

i may have read it wrong but the Ace high flush is the only possible hand that could beat yours is it?
and of course straight flush i think

[MegaSin]

7 10 of diamonds also

[LuckyLloyd]

I feel like when you call the turn here you have to auto call the river. His range should be highly polarized in this situation (particularly when he opens up from UTG as it should narrow the amount of potential AdXd combos in his range / he shouldn't have the immortal nuts), and by calling the turn he can legitimately decide there are a few non made hands in your range and he should follow through on a blank river.

I would of course be concerned by a full pot bet from a direct buyin (and don't ever expect a smaller flush when it's that size). I assume you qualified online, which means I assume you were decked out in qualifier Pokerstars gear, which would lead me to assume that he would not auto assume you are any good (I know, I know). That could work both ways in that he could use a snap underestimation of your abilities so that he feels good about either going for big value ('he is bad so he will struggle to fold twopair') OR firing one more shell ('he is bad so he will struggle to call a lot because he wants to hang in and make the experience last').

Obviously raising equates to lighting money on fire, but I just don't think you have enough contextual information or enough in the way the hand plays out to justify folding here.

[Angry-Ball]

7 10 of diamonds also

so you think that he opens UTG with 7 10 of diamonds????

[MegaSin]

so you think that he opens UTG with 7 10 of diamonds????

No never but BrianByrne asked was the A high flush the only hand he could lose to.

[Ziggin&Zaggin]

My thinking here its JJ in the hole.

Pre is standard enough call, KQ is decent hand for a cheap enough call.

Flop
He thinks hes giving you rope to hang yourself by you betting flop and he just check calls for a trap.

Turn Is a J and now he fires out and your callin, he might at this stage have you on an Adx and your just calling for a river D, so he goes for the value bet on the river.

But im probably a mile off. just my thoughts.

[DrJFF]

I think raising here is beyond awful and if you need that explained to you, you shudn't be commenting on this thread,


@ lloyd i have never wore any of the stars gear in any of the tourneys i've qualified for, and thats for a couple of reasons main one being how people perceive you,

but your reasoning of this guy is prob bad come into my thought process and is why i wanted to fold so bad, but i struggled to put him on Axdd combo he could have other than ATdd exactly,

i then thought of other hands which he can flushes with the only conceivable one being 76dd or maybe 54dd,

i also believe he may have hands in his value betting range which i beat cos there aren't that many flush combo's i can have which gets to the river without raising the turn

i eventually decided to make the call after tanking for like the longest i have ever in live poker, a good 6-8mins lol,

don't want to post results just yet want to hear a few more opinions

[BrianByrne]

Thanks for making this Thread.

as a less experienced player i would look at this situation initially and be delighted he bet so much, i would just think. "its so unlikely he has 2 diamonds and one being the ace! Thank you for the donation!" but of course there is a lot more to it than that, id never of put so much thought into a particular situation which is maybe why i find myself thinking ive been done hard done by and constantly suffering percieved "badbeats"

very much looking forward to the outcome.

can you explain the thought process that brought you to the call?
Like what options did you have to weigh up, were you going off any previous information etc

if its too much to ask no problem.

[smoothcall]

I think raising here is beyond awful and if you need that explained to you, you shudn't be commenting on this thread,

hmm , not sure I agree with that. There's some merit to raising imo. Could get the call from lower flushs or hero's, I'd say he bets the flop a high percentage of the time with nut fd or straight fd.

I certainly would never be folding, think it's a pretty standard just call though.

[Bubbleking]

hi man how is your trip going?

when i first read the HH i was thinking snap call but then i got thinking - the Villain is obviously not a bad player so in really he is thinking abut the hand that you have - if you think about it your line is a little strange for having the flush i.e. you bet out on the flop and then dont raise a donked turn bet.

If i was the villain holding the bare Ad the river bet would seem like the ideal amount to get you off a set / 2 pair / possible straight. ( i say bare Ad because then he knows you cant have the mortal nuts and so your flat call on the turn would seem less like the king high flush IMO)

basically after all my ramblings - your hand is under repped so I call

[DrJFF]

hmm , not sure I agree with that. There's some merit to raising imo. Could get the call from lower flushs or hero's, I'd say he bets the flop a high percentage of the time with nut fd or straight fd.

I certainly would never be folding, think it's a pretty standard just call though.

wat smaller flushes are in his range for calling a raise? with different combos available there may be some merits to raising,

[ianmc38]

The only in any way marginal decision on this river is whether or not to raise. Folding would be unbelievably bad.

I would call here by default. If you raise it's hard to get a call from a low flush here because most low flushes should be bet folding this river and calling in villains spot with 56d or 67d/whatever other smaller flushes are out there would be awful, as your range is super strong.

[Mellor]

i may have read it wrong but the Ace high flush is the only possible hand that could beat yours is it?
and of course straight flush i think

No never but BrianByrne asked was the A high flush the only hand he could lose to.

No he said Ace flush and straight flush. So you comments were pretty much pointless.


As I said above, there are almost no hands in his calling range that we beat. I can't see him betting out with 76. Although its wrong to completely eliminate it.
He only hand in his range that he calls with is ATd. Raising, without further info is bad. folding is obviously worse.

Because of this, I thing the call is pretty standard.

[gorrrr72]

His bet on the river looks super strong imo as all the draws pretty much got there. If he flopped a set he would lead out or at least check raise on such a draw heavy board.
I'm guessing he had the AdXd but I'm too old to fold the K high flush so I would make the crying call.

[smoothcall]

wat smaller flushes are in his range for calling a raise? with different combos available there may be some merits to raising,

good few, all low sooty connectors. He's also more likely to check call these on the flop than nut or straight flush draws imo.

On a side note , if he's a skandi who direct bought in, arrived late and plays 5k nl. Theres probably no hands that aren't in his opening range, also he'd be capable of running dirty bluffs more than likely.

Anyway, think this is a fairly standard call on the river, just posted because of the over the top view against raising.

Also bubbleking it's not plo, putting him on K high and firing the lone ace lol.

[ShipIt]

Smoothcall basically owned this thread.

[KKrrusher33]

standard call. what's all the fuss about? raising is obviously not good given all u know about him and he knows about you at this point. and the size of river bet is for me better big for u than small because if it was smaller you're now in more of a quandry of about whether to call/reraise. again if he flip Ace Flush it sucks but i'm reallly confident u take this one down.

[TommyGunne]

No way can you fold here. I think raising would be far too thin though. He'll fold small flushes quite a lot to a jam. There is no possible way that you can consider folding here though.

No way can you rule out T7dd from pre also. Just gets a lower weight. As smoothcall says, he's a 5kNL player playing a tournie. Lots of these guys will just open a hell of a lot from everywhere, cos in fairness, they are far far far better than 99.99% of tournie players with 100bb.

[Bubbleking]

Also bubbleking it's not plo, putting him on K high and firing the lone ace lol.

clearly pwned that'l teach me to venture outside my micros level of thinking

[Guest]

I think raising here is beyond awful and if you need that explained to you, you shudn't be commenting on this thread,

Thats BS. Everyone is perfectly entitled to post whatever opinion they have so it can be criticised and help them improve.

[smoothcall]

clearly pwned that'l teach me to venture outside my micros level of thinking

ah I didn't mean to be offensive, but It looks like your really looking at the hand and giving too much thought to JFFs whole cards. When your trrying to think in the villians shoes you should completely disregard the hero's hand. try set up a range and reasons why he would be playing the hand like this vs your percieved range. You seem to be more trying to pin one hand to each player.

Anyway, I didn't want to put you off thinking outside the box,

[Bubbleking]

ah I didn't mean to be offensive, but It looks like your really looking at the hand and giving too much thought to JFFs whole cards. When your trrying to think in the villians shoes you should completely disregard the hero's hand. try set up a range and reasons why he would be playing the hand like this vs your percieved range. You seem to be more trying to pin one hand to each player.

Anyway, I didn't want to put you off thinking outside the box,

No problem - dont worry i dont take anything said on here as offensive.

Maybe i went about it the wrong way around but really what i was getting at is that from the way JFF played the hand he is more likely to have a set/2 pair then the flush because he didn't raise the turn. therefore the river bet by the villain is a stone cold bluff IMO

[scouser in dub]

If we expect villain to be able to open a lot of Axdd and T7dd, which seems reasonable almost 100bb's deep, do we really expect him to check call flop and lead turn and river nutted. Like i really don't know what range he opens pre check calls flop and leads turn and river because I expect him to c-bet this flop a lot with those hands that now beat us.

I do think that this is a call but I think it's closer to a jam than a fold.

[Angry-Ball]

not to sure if anyone has stuck this into pokerstove

but here you go

990 games 0.063 secs 15,714 games/sec

Board: 9d 8d 4s Jd 2s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 99.192% 99.19% 00.00% 982 0.00 { KdQd }
Hand 1: 00.808% 00.81% 00.00% 8 0.00 { random }


---


based on the above figures this is a major +ev shove


i also put this through with an asigned range of hands to include 107s


183 games 0.005 secs 36,600 games/sec

Board: 9d 8d 4s Jd 2s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 01.639% 01.64% 00.00% 3 0.00 { TT+, A7s+, K7s+, Q7s+, J7s+, T7s+, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 1: 98.361% 98.36% 00.00% 180 0.00 { KdQd }

it is all major ev

fwiw i think the question lies in you drjff

were you prepared to go and pack your bags and go home after a few hours playing??

thats where the decision is and not what the other guy is holding

i await to be ridiculed

[KKrrusher33]

not to sure if anyone has stuck this into pokerstove

but here you go

990 games 0.063 secs 15,714 games/sec

Board: 9d 8d 4s Jd 2s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 99.192% 99.19% 00.00% 982 0.00 { KdQd }
Hand 1: 00.808% 00.81% 00.00% 8 0.00 { random }


---


based on the above figures this is a major +ev shove


i also put this through with an asigned range of hands to include 107s


183 games 0.005 secs 36,600 games/sec

Board: 9d 8d 4s Jd 2s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 01.639% 01.64% 00.00% 3 0.00 { TT+, A7s+, K7s+, Q7s+, J7s+, T7s+, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 1: 98.361% 98.36% 00.00% 180 0.00 { KdQd }

it is all major ev

fwiw i think the question lies in you drjff

were you prepared to go and pack your bags and go home after a few hours playing??

thats where the decision is and not what the other guy is holding

i await to be ridiculed

i want to be the first to ridicule u. ridicule done.

[Laois Hammer]

imo he folds everything you beat if you raise the river so calling is the only option, he either has the nuts or complete air. JJJ is the only other hand screaming out to me, interesting one.

[Strewelpeter]

Please tell me you didn't raise.

I hate Pre against a wannabee Scandie with too much money raising UTG, but they sure are pretty cards.

Now its a must make crying call of 5200 into 5500. Sick spot OK

[max_power]

I don't get how there's anything 'sick' about this hand. Just call. Aggro player + Tournament + 100bbs + 3rd nuts = call imo.

[Mellor]

not to sure if anyone has stuck this into pokerstove

but here you go

990 games 0.063 secs 15,714 games/sec

Board: 9d 8d 4s Jd 2s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 99.192% 99.19% 00.00% 982 0.00 { KdQd }
Hand 1: 00.808% 00.81% 00.00% 8 0.00 { random }


---


based on the above figures this is a major +ev shove


i also put this through with an asigned range of hands to include 107s


183 games 0.005 secs 36,600 games/sec

Board: 9d 8d 4s Jd 2s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 01.639% 01.64% 00.00% 3 0.00 { TT+, A7s+, K7s+, Q7s+, J7s+, T7s+, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 1: 98.361% 98.36% 00.00% 180 0.00 { KdQd }

it is all major ev

fwiw i think the question lies in you drjff

were you prepared to go and pack your bags and go home after a few hours playing??

thats where the decision is and not what the other guy is holding

i await to be ridiculed

What does pokerstove say when we give him 7d6d and Adtd only?

[reilly110]

seems like pretty easy call -would expect opponent to have a low flush here just about always

and lol to everyone who doesnt think 107s is in this guys utg opening range

[Angry-Ball]

What does pokerstove say when we give him 7d6d and Adtd only?

oohhhhhh your a funny one you

edit: it would say you won if villian turned 7d6d

[Angry-Ball]

seems like pretty easy call -would expect opponent to have a low flush here just about always

and lol to everyone who doesnt think 107s is in this guys utg opening range

why is it in his range

cos its one of two hands that beat us???

if we can put him on a hand like 107s surely it stands to reason then that
99,88,44,JJ,AQ and Q10o is also in his range, the hand your going to see here is A10dd alot and Q10o or a set, i think he is holding alot of hands but not 107s, and in the rest of his range there is only one hand that beats us so for that reason i think its a push and if he folds well and good if he calls and turns up the goods so be it

[Strewelpeter]

I don't get how there's anything 'sick' about this hand. Just call. Aggro player + Tournament + 100bbs + 3rd nuts = call imo.

Sure but its sick when he loses to A rag

[3BetShove]

As previously said by posters i do this:

1. screw up my face
2. say wtf?!
3. flat
4(a). fist pump when shows QdJd
or
4(b). tap table when shown Adxd

[Ace]

4(a). fist pump when shows QdJd

i'd say that you won't win the hand if he shows this and there will be a few puzzled faces...

[Ziggin&Zaggin]

2 days later a big anti climax coming me thinks

[Laois Hammer]

why is it in his range

cos its one of two hands that beat us???

no because its one of the hands in the raising range of an aggresive player with so many blinds.

anyway i think drjff was just slowrolling and for the time he was in the tank he was thinking bout titties and blow

[cardshark202]

If I was utg and you took 6 mins to call me with the fourth nuts(inc straight flushes) I would be pissed off majorly cos it would seem like a total slowroll.

I call quick.

[DrJFF]

He had ATdd,

i mucked my hand so he didn't see wat i had, when i told him later he was shocked/pissed off that he didn't get my whole stack, and prob didn't believe me,

i obviously knew i could never fold, i did think about shoving but came to the decision that he couldn't call with anything bar the nutz so i ruled that out,

i had a sick feeling i was beat and i prob didn't tank for 6mins but it felt like that,


just wanted to see wat others thought,

tyty


also note: the guy who thought he could have QJdd lol, i have the Kd

[gorrrr72]

His bet on the river looks super strong imo as all the draws pretty much got there. If he flopped a set he would lead out or at least check raise on such a draw heavy board.
I'm guessing he had the AdXd but I'm too old to fold the K high flush so I would make the crying call.

Sorry about quoting myself but what I meant here was that the fact that all the draws got there means that he can make a pot sized bet with the confidence that you call now that you've made your hand.