Online MTT 20BB spot

[NuckChorris]

Asked for a few opinions on this elsewhere and got very different opinions so checking what the conscensus is here:

Final 11/380 of a big buy-in online MTT. In the money but only 5.5x entry fee. 1st place 75x entry fee.

Blinds 1000/4000/8000

MP (t536020)
Button (t158608)
SB (t325133)
BB (t421684)
UTG (t242235)

Folded to the button. With Ac7c. Raise to 16000-20000 or shove? Not my hand so don't know stats or reads on blinds, but not sure how much that would affect the move.

[Bubbleking]

seen title of thread and thought shove

Raise/call, Raise/fold depending on blinds

[thechamp87]

Shove

[fumyname]

min raise/fold, your stil playing 140k if the raise does not get through, try min raising next hand then :!) and the next after that, :!)

your just a tad too deep to shove there, i cant really see how its profitable shipping 20x to win 2bb....

actually its pretty bad

[Tremolo1]

Shove

[NuckChorris]

Already getting a split field here between the shove or normal raise!

[deyrzuited]

It's a close 1. Your adding 10% to your stack by shoving and getting through which merits it but at the same time it seems a bit much to be open shoving 20bb. On the same boat as bubbleking raise/fold or raise/call depending on blinds.

[Laois Hammer]

min raise/fold, your stil playing 140k if the raise does not get through, try min raising next hand then :!) and the next after that, :!)

your just a tad too deep to shove there, i cant really see how its profitable shipping 20x to win 2bb....

actually its pretty bad

its not bad at all, but raise calling / raise folding is probably better in this spot

[JWillo1]

min raise/fold, your stil playing 140k if the raise does not get through, try min raising next hand then :!) and the next after that, :!)

your just a tad too deep to shove there, i cant really see how its profitable shipping 20x to win 2bb....

actually its pretty bad

Raise-folding Is really bad, and raise-calling is higher variance then just shoving. So yea easy shove

[Emperor Badger]

I really don't like shoving 20BB. Raise / fold against nits in the blinds or raise / call against aggro players is surely better than jamming in 20BB?

[Winning!]

Shoving is best here considering aggressive players in the blinds will 3bet a such a wide range that you will often fold the best hand. It's definitely +EV shove, no question. Whether ICM would dictate a more careful approach this late in the tournament is a factor I couldn't estimate, but I would usually resort to basic strategy in this situation and get it in, hope to dog if called (which really wont be all that often tbh, and you may get looked up by KQ).

[anymorejokes]

Shoving is best here considering aggressive players in the blinds will 3bet a such a wide range that you will often fold the best hand. It's definitely +EV shove, no question. Whether ICM would dictate a more careful approach this late in the tournament is a factor I couldn't estimate, but I would usually resort to basic strategy in this situation and get it in, hope to dog if called (which really wont be all that often tbh, and you may get looked up by KQ).

indeed, It would depend on the blinds stats for me, If their aggressive and are 3 betting wide den shove the loot in. But we can get away with raise folding v nitty guys in the blinds. I don't really like a raise call, like do we really want to induce a shove with a7. Were getting the shove through an awful lot of the time.

[AKQJ10]

Depends on the site, players and buyin. If its ipoker <$50 i think you can raise fold to some players. On stars or ftp id just cram it in.

[NicoSanty]

For the people that say shove, what do you with your value range here?

[doke]

For the people that say shove, what do you with your value range here?

Depends on the tendencies of the players yet to act. If they're squeeze merchants, I raise to induce. If they're passive (never three bet pre and check fold on the flop if they miss: ie, most live players) I raise and cbet etc etc. If they call 20 bb shoves pretty wide, I'd just shove.

In a vacuum in an MTT I'd usually just shove the Ac7c here. I hate raise folding and I'd be making a crying call if shoved on, so better to stick them in first and maybe get hands you're flipping with or A8/A9 to fold.

[anymorejokes]

For the people that say shove, what do you with your value range here?

Asking the Q you know the answer to nick!! This would be one of the reason to raise fold/call.
Your not going to pick up premium and shove it in.

[NuckChorris]

Initially I brought this up as I wasn't a fan of the shove. Looked a bit deep to be doing it. General opinion seems to be that the shove isn't standard but it a perfectly good move for this kind of hand. Anyway here's where i saw it first:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $10000+$300 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXVI, 4000/8000 Blinds 1000 Ante (5 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

danskemann (t536020)
JoeHachem (t158608)
StigR (t325133)
Tagult (t421684)
el_klonkador (t242235)

Preflop:
2 folds, Button bets t157608 (All-In), SB raises to t324133 (All-In), 1 fold

Flop: (t328216) , , (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (t328216) (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t328216) (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: t328216
Main pot: t328216 between Button and SB, won by SB

Results:
Button had A, 7 (one pair, fives).
SB had K, A (one pair, fives).
Outcome: SB won t328216

[NicoSanty]

Depends on the tendencies of the players yet to act. If they're squeeze merchants, I raise to induce. If they're passive (never three bet pre and check fold on the flop if they miss: ie, most live players) I raise and cbet etc etc. If they call 20 bb shoves pretty wide, I'd just shove.

In a vacuum in an MTT I'd usually just shove the Ac7c here. I hate raise folding and I'd be making a crying call if shoved on, so better to stick them in first and maybe get hands you're flipping with or A8/A9 to fold.

Asking the Q you know the answer to nick!! This would be one of the reason to raise fold/call.
Your not going to pick up premium and shove it in.

These are the reasons I asked the question.

If you never take into account, as Doke said, the tendencies of the players yet to act, then shoving with hands you don't want to call off with and opening hands you want action with is bad.

Your range in this spot will be unbalanced and good, analytical players will pick up on your tendencies here and use them to make better, informed decisions against you.

As the op pointed pointed out though, we have no reads or stats on the blinds. Hence, if we have A7c or AA in the same spot against unknown villains, do people always jam both or not?

[Maloney]

These are the reasons I asked the question.

If you never take into account, as Doke said, the tendencies of the players yet to act, then shoving with hands you don't want to call off with and opening hands you want action with is bad.

Your range in this spot will be unbalanced and good, analytical players will pick up on your tendencies here and use them to make better, informed decisions against you.

As the op pointed pointed out though, we have no reads or stats on the blinds. Hence, if we have A7c or AA in the same spot against unknown villains, do people always jam both or not?

Infairness unless your a reg and play against these players over long time balancing doesn't matter?

[anymorejokes]

These are the reasons I asked the question.

If you never take into account, as Doke said, the tendencies of the players yet to act, then shoving with hands you don't want to call off with and opening hands you want action with is bad.

Your range in this spot will be unbalanced and good, analytical players will pick up on your tendencies here and use them to make better, informed decisions against you.

As the op pointed pointed out though, we have no reads or stats on the blinds. Hence, if we have A7c or AA in the same spot against unknown villains, do people always jam both or not?

Well i said in my first post on the thread it all depended on the blinds stats. So ya i agreed with you. The shove with the a7c isn't wrong in my opinion others have diff views obvs, But if this is your hand and this situation comes up u'll know either the stats or if its live how the players are playing.

[Winning!]

These are the reasons I asked the question.

If you never take into account, as Doke said, the tendencies of the players yet to act, then shoving with hands you don't want to call off with and opening hands you want action with is bad.

Your range in this spot will be unbalanced and good, analytical players will pick up on your tendencies here and use them to make better, informed decisions against you.

As the op pointed pointed out though, we have no reads or stats on the blinds. Hence, if we have A7c or AA in the same spot against unknown villains, do people always jam both or not?

I disagree that our range here is unbalanced to any exploitable degree.

Our range for open-raising is obviously polarised to include very strong hands we want action with or very weak hands we can't shove profitably. In any case it's going to be a very wide range of hands (mostly weak obv), but against which villain will find it very difficult to play optimally, as we only lose 2BBs the times we r/f, but will win 22BBs the times villain stumbles into the nutted end of our range. Obviously this is an idealised situation in which villains either shove or folds, but often we get flatted too, and even with the weak end of our range can pick up pots in position.

Similarly, our range for jamming is pretty wide, but includes a merged range of value hands with which we can apply a lot of pressure, and have somewhat decent equity if called. It also includes hands that may already be ahead of the blinds calling range; AJ/PPs/etc. so villain cannot play optimally by widening his calling range too much.

This particular shove is so +ev simply because the blinds cannot wake up with a hand that beats A7s often enough to make this shove unprofitable, even if we were to turn our hand face-up before we shove, they can't exploit us long term here! So we can mingle in some weaker hands which still have equity but in a vacuum could be exploited if turned face-up.

[Laois Hammer]

Depends on the site, players and buyin. If its ipoker <$50 i think you can raise fold to some players. On stars or ftp id just cram it in.

This, its very tourney & table dependent for me

Infairness unless your a reg and play against these players over long time balancing doesn't matter?

This aswel

-----

You dont have to do the same thing everytime basically, the fact that its the final 11 would lead me to go the raise call or raise fold route,, you've done the hard work and got to the business end of the tourney your stack dosent have to be used the same as it would in the mid stages of the tourney + most randomers ranges will be tightening up around now.

[boba_fett3099]

Its totally player dependent for me, players are rarely calling here as wide as they should so if they're in any way tight im shoving and happy with it. Also we're near FT bubble so might make they're calling ranges a little tighter than usual.

Edit: also raise folding is lol bad imo, i'm only raise calling (rather than shoving) if one of the blinds is restealing super wide