Hand from 60k gtd on I poker

[elbows]

I'm utg+1

Blinds 100/200 with 25 antes.

I have won the last 2 pots but image is pretty tight despite opening more pots since the antes came in. Previous hand min raised utg uncontested with ak.

I have 16k in chips and dealt QQ. I made it 400 and utg+2 (13k) called and 5th posi player makes it 1400 (9k). Button on 19k top stack at table makes it 6,400.

Also does I poker have hand converter?

[Angry-Ball]

its a fold or shove, no way can you just flat here.
iam more inclined to fold heretbh,
if you call and one of the other villians shoves and bttn re-ships you are in a terrible spot.
any info on the villians?

[Kenny]

its a fold, no read on villians anyway no?

[elbows]

Caller was not getting involved in big pots and had called a few times from raises, I had stolen a few chips off the 1st raiser a few hands previously and I am guessing he would do this with any mid pair, aj even. Button was reasonably active raising a lot of unopened pots (3 times bb mainly). Hadn't seen him make a big raise pre yet so no previous on size of bet.

[Tremolo1]

Fold

[elbows]

I shoved and he had aa.

I thought he was overraising to take it down with a weaker hand than aa.

[Mellor]

Had the action just gone bet, call, 3bet. You could of had a case for a shove/raise given that the 5th position villain was in a great spot to squeeze. This becomes trickier with TT or JJ

The button was in a similar spot to you in the hypothetical situation above (bet, call, 3bet). Plus he still had you, the original raiser, to worry about so based on that I don't he should ever be showing up with worse. Obviously it comes down to weather or not he is aware of this.

[Moneymaker]

Cold 4bet from an average live donk is nearly always AA. At least 90% of the time i've found.

I'd just fold, we've only invested 400 chips and we're never far ahead and often far behind. I'd fold and swear a bit.

[elbows]

Had the action just gone bet, call, 3bet. You could of had a case for a shove/raise given that the 5th position villain was in a great spot to squeeze. This becomes trickier with TT or JJ

The button was in a similar spot to you in the hypothetical situation above (bet, call, 3bet). Plus he still had you, the original raiser, to worry about so based on that I don't he should ever be showing up with worse. Obviously it comes down to weather or not he is aware of this.

Cold 4bet from an average live donk is nearly always AA. At least 90% of the time i've found.

I'd just fold, we've only invested 400 chips and we're never far ahead and often far behind. I'd fold and swear a bit.

Thanks, makes more sense now. I originally thought the size of the bet was overly big for AA and he might do that with 1010, jj or ak. That might be the case if it went bet call and 3bet but I see now he is rarely doing this light as a 4 bet. Add to that that I have 400 in the pot and a healthy chip stack=spa move.

[BuChan]

ez fold

[Winning!]

Your image is far less important than the 4bettors image here.. so any info on that would be invaluable. If he's a fish this is tough and I may lay it down but if he's a reg/decent player I find this a much easier shove as I'm not in bad shape very often..

The 4bet is so large it looks like an iso with a premium but vulnerable hand; AK/JJ essentially. It's a bet designed to force people out by committing his stack, which good players rarely make with AA/KK.

[Flushdraw]

If this was the reduced buyin rebuy, i'd ship it

[Caf]

Don't like the min open with these stacks.

Would fold now. I think it's a read dependent fold or shove and without a read it's always a fold for me.

If this was the reduced buyin rebuy, i'd ship it

Pretty sure it's the normal buy-in, op posted a month ago. Why do you ship it if was reduced though?

[Winning!]

If this was the reduced buyin rebuy, i'd ship it

I assume you mean to say that the reduced buy-in makes it a little more likely villain is a fish, correct? This actually means we're more likely to run into AA/KK here, so the decision would starting swaying towards 'fold' imo

[Norwichfanrob]

Your image is far less important than the 4bettors image here.. so any info on that would be invaluable. If he's a fish this is tough and I may lay it down but if he's a reg/decent player I find this a much easier shove as I'm not in bad shape very often..

The 4bet is so large it looks like an iso with a premium but vulnerable hand; AK/JJ essentially. It's a bet designed to force people out by committing his stack, which good players rarely make with AA/KK.

At this stage of a tourney, with blinds this low, and action like this, a good player is never putting in 1/3rd of their stack on a random bluff (32 bigs), and even less of the time would they be turning a hand like JJ into a bluff, furthermore, the 4bet is not too large given the situation with a hand like AA or KK, which this almost always is !

[islander32]

You raise ep... get flatted... 3bet then cold 4 bet.... easiest fold ever no matter what the buyin

[Winning!]

It's pretty damn large tbh.. 4.5x the 3bet lol. I'm not saying it's a random bluff, ever, but it gives us and the 3bettor literally zero rope with which to hang ourselves. It screams "Hey, I've got a big hand here.. I'd rather take this down pre but if you want to play with me I'm never folding!" Decent players with AK do this a lot (QQ/JJ sometimes too), with AA/KK much less so.

Still, readless on the player I would rather assume he is a fish against whom I could be in really bad shape, than a good player against whom I may have decent equity. All things considered and looking at the bigger picture we have a lot of chips and no need to flip for a massive pot here, so suppose folding is fine.

[Flushdraw]

.Pretty sure it's the normal buy-in, op posted a month ago. Why do you ship it if was reduced though?

I assume you mean to say that the reduced buy-in makes it a little more likely villain is a fish, correct? This actually means we're more likely to run into AA/KK here, so the decision would starting swaying towards 'fold' imo

If the buyin was reduced to $20-$36 which i think a lot of the gtds were recently, then they attracted a lot of losing players and lower stakes players. They ran a ton of satellites into them so we got players in for anything from $.50 up

Actually just reading back over the OP, i didn't even realise that we're into the 100/200/50 level and well enough stacked. I glanced it and thought we were earlier in the tournie and we could rebuy but i'd actually fold now

[Norwichfanrob]

i dont think decent players do this a lot in this specific situation without KK or AA.
if blinds were bigger, or more importantly if table positions were different, then yes, its far more likely a decent player will do this with a wider range, or deffo AK anyway.
In this specific example:

A) blinds and very small relative to stacks (and ante is only 25)
B) a player has min raised utg+1 into full table (quite likely to have a hand)
C) another player has made a re raise from mid pos against utg+1 raise, with players behind, for almost 20% of their stack (ie they should never be doing this and folding and should almost always have a big hand)
D) player cold 4 betting has nothing in the pot invested, and should be aware of points A-C if a good player
E) if cold 4 bettor has hand like JJ or TT, he will essentially never get this all in pre flop ahead in this scenario, and he should expect to run into a big hand from mid pos or utg+1 a lot here, so usually , he has KK or AA (as hes effectively bluffing with the JJ or TT)

[Winning!]

i dont think decent players do this a lot in this specific situation without KK or AA.
if blinds were bigger, or more importantly if table positions were different, then yes, its far more likely a decent player will do this with a wider range, or deffo AK anyway.
In this specific example:

A) blinds and very small relative to stacks (and ante is only 25)
B) a player has min raised utg+1 into full table (quite likely to have a hand)
C) another player has made a re raise from mid pos against utg+1 raise, with players behind, for almost 20% of their stack (ie they should never be doing this and folding and should almost always have a big hand)
D) player cold 4 betting has nothing in the pot invested, and should be aware of points A-C if a good player
E) if cold 4 bettor has hand like JJ or TT, he will essentially never get this all in pre flop ahead in this scenario, and he should expect to run into a big hand from mid pos or utg+1 a lot here, so usually , he has KK or AA (as hes effectively bluffing with the JJ or TT)

I see your logic, and readless with all things considered I would fold here just to avoid playing a massive pot when I've a ton of chips, but sure I'll play devil's advocate anyway.

A few different things factored in make this situation a little less obvious a fold than it should be. I've already mentioned the 4bet-size, which we disagree on.. but I'll maintain it's pretty bad sizing with AA/KK if he's decent. (Obv he turned up with AA, so I would hazard a guess that he's not a great player, against whom we could easily fold w/reads)

Other than that though;
1) We have opened and won the last two hands and are now raising a third time from early position
2) We opened small, 2x
3) we got flatted behind
All three of these make a squeeze quite feasible, and if villain was good and recognised this, he could try to iso the squeezer with a slightly wider range than we expect here; AK/JJ+

Also villain is big-stack after the rebuy period which can often point to a gambler. Not a solid read by any means obviously but might it widen his range a tiny bit if true?

[Norwichfanrob]

[QUOTE=Winning!;340231]I see your logic, and readless with all things considered I would fold here just to avoid playing a massive pot when I've a ton of chips, but sure I'll play devil's advocate anyway.

A few different things factored in make this situation a little less obvious a fold than it should be. I've already mentioned the 4bet-size, which we disagree on.. but I'll maintain it's pretty bad sizing with AA/KK if he's decent. (Obv he turned up with AA, so I would hazard a guess that he's not a great player, against whom we could easily fold w/reads)

Other than that though;
1) We have opened and won the last two hands and are now raising a third time from early position (WE HAVE NOT SHOWN ANY RAGS , AND OFTEN iTS MORE LIKELY WE HAVE A HAND THE 3rd TIME)
2) We opened small, 2x (OFTEN THE SIGN OF A BIG HAND ONLINE)
3) we got flatted behind (BY UTG+2)
All three of these make a squeeze quite feasible, and if villain was good and recognised this, he could try to iso the squeezer with a slightly wider range than we expect here; AK/JJ+ (TERRIBLE SPOT FOR A GOOD PLAYER TO SQUEEZE LIGHT WITH SO LITTLE IN THE POT AND PLAYERS BEHIND, EVEN WORSE SPOT TO 4 BET LIGHT BECAUSE OF THIS)

just some points in caps above, seriously, at this stage , and from those positions, this will always be monster for any decent player, but a player with lack of understanding of position, stack sizes, pot odds etc is more liable to make -EV move (which 4 bet here is given it effectively risks 13k of their stack as they have to call shove, to win abut 2400 in a spot where theres a huge chance they face an all in), the opposite of what u were saying earlier.

[Winning!]

just some points in caps above, seriously, at this stage , and from those positions, this will always be monster for any decent player, but a player with lack of understanding of position, stack sizes, pot odds etc is more liable to make -EV move (which 4 bet here is given it effectively risks 13k of their stack as they have to call shove, to win abut 2400 in a spot where theres a huge chance they face an all in), the opposite of what u were saying earlier.

Yeah I must admit I focused more on the 'why would he raise so big?' factor which in a vacuum seems to point to a big but vulnerable hand. I never paid heed to the more important question; 'what else would he commit his stack with?' which obv points to a stronger range than AK/JJ+ dependent far less on whether the player is good or bad..

Thanks for the discussion rob, always glad to contend with the best

[islander32]

I see your logic, and readless with all things considered I would fold here just to avoid playing a massive pot when I've a ton of chips, but sure I'll play devil's advocate anyway.

A few different things factored in make this situation a little less obvious a fold than it should be. I've already mentioned the 4bet-size, which we disagree on.. but I'll maintain it's pretty bad sizing with AA/KK if he's decent. (Obv he turned up with AA, so I would hazard a guess that he's not a great player, against whom we could easily fold w/reads)

Other than that though;
1) We have opened and won the last two hands and are now raising a third time from early position
2) We opened small, 2x
3) we got flatted behind
All three of these make a squeeze quite feasible, and if villain was good and recognised this, he could try to iso the squeezer with a slightly wider range than we expect here; AK/JJ+

Also villain is big-stack after the rebuy period which can often point to a gambler. Not a solid read by any means obviously but might it widen his range a tiny bit if true?

Sometimes the game and situations can be analyzed to death. There has been a huge amount of over analysis on this hand. Sometimes the game is simple....You raise utg with 99+aq+ ....you get flatted with 22+tjs+.... you get x3 bet by tt+ajs+ ...you get cold 4 bet by ak+qq+ .... your qq has turned to shit with this action so with a bit of wishful thinking and deep levelling ur at best 50%...Its a clear fold.

[Mellor]

Winning, i really think you are way off the mark here.
I posted on this thread last month, and I still stand by reasoning

The 4bet is so large it looks like an iso with a premium but vulnerable hand; AK/JJ essentially. It's a bet designed to force people out by committing his stack, which good players rarely make with AA/KK.

It really isn't that large give the pot

It's pretty damn large tbh.. 4.5x the 3bet lol. I'm not saying it's a random bluff, ever, but it gives us and the 3bettor literally zero rope with which to hang ourselves. It screams "Hey, I've got a big hand here.. I'd rather take this down pre but if you want to play with me I'm never folding!" Decent players with AK do this a lot (QQ/JJ sometimes too), with AA/KK much less so.

Judging the size of the 4bet as a factor of the 3 bet is wrong. If this is how you size your bets its also wrong btw.
The 3bet was on the small side given the caller, it looks about 2/3 pot.

A PSB for the button would of been 5500. He is hardly much over this. It's a big bet, i'm not denying that. But it's not some masssive over bet where you can weigh his range towards JJ and AK, like you suggest. It's size is purely down to the fact that there are 5 players behind, 3 of whom have put money in preflop.
Assuming a good player doesn't do this and we beat his range here is very flawed imo

Still, readless on the player I would rather assume he is a fish against whom I could be in really bad shape, than a good player against whom I may have decent equity. All things considered and looking at the bigger picture we have a lot of chips and no need to flip for a massive pot here, so suppose folding is fine.

Your fish vrs good player read is bizarre to me. If we have good equity against a player here, he could never be described as good.
It's either +EV or -EV, having a big stack i not a good reason to fold.

Other than that though;
1) We have opened and won the last two hands and are now raising a third time from early position
2) We opened small, 2x
3) we got flatted behind
All three of these make a squeeze quite feasible, and if villain was good and recognised this, he could try to iso the squeezer with a slightly wider range than we expect here; AK/JJ+

1) We are UTG+1, so the last few hands were in MP. Not hugely important, but just want to debunk some "we are always raising in EP" image.
2) Irrellevant if its our standard open
3) Gettign flatted behind does make a squeeze feasible, and the CO may well have been squeezing. But you just ignored the button 4 bet above. You're suggesting a double squeeze??
There is zero chance that the button is light here with the action in front of him. I really can't understand your idea that he is more likely to be weak here if he is a good player. This is a terrible spot to get involved light for the button.

Also villain is big-stack after the rebuy period which can often point to a gambler. Not a solid read by any means obviously but might it widen his range a tiny bit if true?

Just play the hand on the action, weak speculative reads are useless.

[Winning!]

Of course, all very true Mellor. Don't get me wrong, in all honesty I would also just fold here given the action. Just thought I'd throw out a few ideas to see what people thought.