Interesting Live Spot 1/2/5

[Kayroo]

SE 1/2 with a live 5 straddle.

Relevant stack sizes: SB €118 Hero:~€420 MP4:~€350 HJ:~€550

I am in the straddle with AhJd.

2 limpers and the SB makes it €20. I flat as do the limpers.

FLOP: Qh Jh 10h

SB goes all-in for €98 after about 5 seconds.

What's my line here?

Information:
SB has been very loose calling pf but this is his first pre-flop raise that I can recall. He seems like a pretty poor player so position probably isn't entering his thoughts. He is quite drunk and his friend has just sat down at the table and they seem to be quite chatty. He seems a brash sort of guy.
He initially bought in for €100 and got lucky in a limped straddle pot to pick up his only pot of the night at this stage with 2 pair v AK hitting top pair.

My real consideration here is the holdings of the 2 players behind me.

MP4 is a drunk guy who clearly had been on the beer all day since the Laois game in Croke Park. That said he hasn't made too many errors and hasn't really gotten out of line.

HJ is a player I know quite well and obviously has me covered. I have plenty of hands with him and his range for calling in position here is wide enough. He has been pretty solid at this table and we haven't really gotten into too many tough spots -v- each other as there was easier money on offer.

[Guest]

.

I never call pre flop as AJ never really plays well out of position, sayin that if u want to play it i re raise and try get heads up with SB! With the line u took i fold on the flop with 2 players behind notin else u can do, its just a realy horrible spot that's why i think the fold pre flop is the best line

[AndyFatBastard]

Seems like a really straightforward flat call here to me. If anyone after you wants to overcall or shove themselves then let them, it's more value in the pot for you and your monster draw. It's not like you're gonna fold to a shove from anyone - nearly half the deck improves your hand and you get two shots at it. If SB has AK or a set then so be it. GAMBOL.

[Guest]

..

Didn't realise u had the flush draw too, easy call on the flop when he moves in!

[ianmc38]

Hate preflop. Calling off 20% of the preflop raisers stack with a hand that is easily dominated and isn't even suited. Just bin it. Now not much you can do. Call and get the loots in vs anyone who shoves behind.

[Pat Mustard]

when played pre flop like this, happy to get the money in here imo

[Hatedajacks]

Hope keith doesnt mind me hijacking. The interesting part of the hand is the decision for the two limpers behind.
So the Aj calls
Mp4 has 8,9 no hearts for the straight
Hj has top 2 pair
What u do in each of their spots?

[Raoul Duke III]

did the HJ pull his top up over his chin and make all sorts of strangled noises?

[Kayroo]

That actually isn't that far from what happened Raoul.

[Raoul Duke III]

That actually isn't that far from what happened Raoul.

strange that

[UbetUwin]

Snap him off and do a little fist pump

[digiman]

Hope keith doesnt mind me hijacking. The interesting part of the hand is the decision for the two limpers behind.
So the Aj calls
Mp4 has 8,9 no hearts for the straight
Hj has top 2 pair
What u do in each of their spots?

Depends what Keith has done, if he flatted, I would probably fold both and if he jammed well then I would call with the straight and fold the top 2 pair.

As for the the actual hand I would just flat the flop and call any shove. Flatting looks strongest I think, so much so that a hand like 89 no hearts is in a very crap spot, they are so far off the nuts and a lot of terrible turn cards either kill their action and they could already be dead to alot of hand combos, getting freerolled or basically flipping against the worst hand that someone would be stacking off with here.

[digiman]

Actually would be a pretty reluctant call with the straight too if he jammed given that there is someone still to act. Crap spot.

[Ramblin' Man]

doesn't really matter what you as long as it's not a fold, calling or showing wont fold out better behind you. Now that I think about a call is prob best, you can get a call from a draw we dominated and get a free showdown with turn going ch/ch

[Moneymaker]

Yeah I like a flat too. That would scare the bayjaysus out of me if a competent player(hah!) flats with 2 players behind him on a sopping wet board. I'd probably fold both hands.

Fold pre though. Ugly hand to be going multi-way with OOP.

doesn't really matter what you as long as it's not a fold, calling or showing wont fold out better behind you. Now that I think about a call is prob best, you can get a call from a draw we dominated and get a free showdown with turn going ch/ch

Completely disagree with this. We can definitely fold out better hands here. Nothing massive like baby flushes/sets whatever, but two pair hands, strong top pair hands will really struggle to continue to a shove and a call on this board.

[Kayroo]

I'm not the Hero in this hand by the way, hatedajacks is.

I am the guy with 2 pair.

[Strewelpeter]

Wouldn't potting it pre to get HU with the SB be the simplest and most profitable thing in this game
Probably a case to be made for folding but I don't like flatting pre because it gets you into shitty situations like this OOP with a woefully inadequate hand.

[Line Us]

Wouldn't potting it pre to get HU with the SB be the simplest and most profitable thing in this game
Probably a case to be made for folding but I don't like flatting pre because it gets you into shitty situations like this OOP with a woefully inadequate hand.

+1 I'd be always raising here pre to get it in vs sb when he is that short, make it small though. As played call now as people have said.

[Moneymaker]

Why are people so keen to get it in vs the SB pre-flop? Keith said in the description this is the first pot he's raised. When someone calls and limps all night, and then suddenly wants to pot it, don't you think they probably have a hand that CRUSHES Ace Jack off suit???

[Ramblin' Man]

Completely disagree with this. We can definitely fold out better hands here. Nothing massive like baby flushes/sets whatever, but two pair hands, strong top pair hands will really struggle to continue to a shove and a call on this board.

you played live poker in dublin before?

[Hatedajacks]

Why are people so keen to get it in vs the SB pre-flop? Keith said in the description this is the first pot he's raised. When someone calls and limps all night, and then suddenly wants to pot it, don't you think they probably have a hand that CRUSHES Ace Jack off suit???

Agree,myself and keith were getting easy money off this chap as his post flop play was awful.His first raise though so didnt want to gamble 120 with him when in Position. Fold right play against people but think it was fine here,also i thought the raise was 20 which makes a diff as already in for 5.

[BuChan]

know it's not important but who emerged victorious and how many casualties were there?

[Hatedajacks]

know it's not important but who emerged victorious and how many casualties were there?

Both straight and top 2 Folded. I bricked but my jack was Good! Lol

[BuChan]

wow, expected more carnage tbh. what a result for you!

[AndyFatBastard]

I'd find it very hard to fold a straight there, it must be said. Two-pair I can understand.

[Hatedajacks]

I'd find it very hard to fold a straight there, it must be said. Two-pair I can understand.

I would have found it harder to fold the two pair,the straight could be drawing dead and has a player behind. Two pair is last to act and will always have outs,he again has to worry re me having flush or less likely the bottom straight. Because of pre flop play he doesnt need to worry bout a set or ak.I aint saying keith should call(glad he didnt) but i would prefer his spot then the 8,9.

[Line Us]

Why are people so keen to get it in vs the SB pre-flop? Keith said in the description this is the first pot he's raised. When someone calls and limps all night, and then suddenly wants to pot it, don't you think they probably have a hand that CRUSHES Ace Jack off suit???

There is already ~€36 in the pot when the action comes back to the hero in the straddle pre. The sb only has €98 behind. If hero repops the sb pre and we get it in then we only need about 42% equity vs his getting it in range for the play to be +ev, and thats assuming he never folds to our 3bet( if he ever folds then its definitely a 3bet pre). We should have this 42% anyway even vs a tight range for the sb.

[Hatedajacks]

There is already ~€36 in the pot when the action comes back to the hero in the straddle pre. The sb only has €98 behind. If hero repops the sb pre and we get it in then we only need about 42% equity vs his getting it in range for the play to be +ev, and thats assuming he never folds to our 3bet( if he ever folds then its definitely a 3bet pre). We should have this 42% anyway even vs a tight range for the sb.

U internet phenoms make poker sound so complicated and me so inadequate!

[Kayroo]

There is already ~€36 in the pot when the action comes back to the hero in the straddle pre. The sb only has €98 behind. If hero repops the sb pre and we get it in then we only need about 42% equity vs his getting it in range for the play to be +ev, and thats assuming he never folds to our 3bet( if he ever folds then its definitely a 3bet pre). We should have this 42% anyway even vs a tight range for the sb.

SB shoves and the hero above calls. MP makes a total crying fold. You have top 2 with 350 or so effective behind. What do you do so? Particularly given the info above which are my basic reads as the HJ in the hand with top 2.

[Mellor]

I'm not the Hero in this hand by the way, hatedajacks is.

I am the guy with 2 pair.

I think you both played it fine

I'd find it very hard to fold a straight there, it must be said. Two-pair I can understand.

Even though a straight is often good on the flop, we never improve and there are a lot of cards that change our hand from being the 3rd nuts to being worthless

[ianmc38]

Folding 89 is lol bad. Top 2 is close enough. I think getting it in preflop vs the SB would be bad. Very tight range. Never has the danglers, suities or small pairs. I'd expect big pairs and dominating aces almost always. I think if the 89 guy calls 2 pair is an easy fold, but with just SB and BB in the pot it's alot closer.

[Hectorjelly]

Fold or 3bet pre, calling is really bad because the flop is going to be so awkward, and its really far too big a % to be cold calling off pre

[AndyFatBastard]

Even though a straight is often good on the flop, we never improve and there are a lot of cards that change our hand from being the 3rd nuts to being worthless

Sure, but it's still +EV to get em in. We will have the best hand a huge % of the time and our opponents will miss their draws another huge % of the time, more than enough for us to ship em in. This isn't Omaha, it's pretty much impossible to get em in bad holding the nuts in Hold'em. I wouldn't go so far as to say it would be lolbad - there's still a decent chance someone has a flush, and SB can easily have AK, but it would be an incredibly nitty fold in a live cash game

[Mellor]

Sure, but it's still +EV to get em in. We will have the best hand a huge % of the time and our opponents will miss their draws another huge % of the time, more than enough for us to ship em in. This isn't Omaha, it's pretty much impossible to get em in bad holding the nuts in Hold'em. I wouldn't go so far as to say it would be lolbad - there's still a decent chance someone has a flush, and SB can easily have AK, but it would be an incredibly nitty fold in a live cash game

Our hand is no where near the nuts, I dunno why i said 3rd nuts, meant 3rd straight.
It's really dependant on the other palyers ranges imo

[digiman]

Folding 89 is lol bad. Top 2 is close enough. I think getting it in preflop vs the SB would be bad. Very tight range. Never has the danglers, suities or small pairs. I'd expect big pairs and dominating aces almost always. I think if the 89 guy calls 2 pair is an easy fold, but with just SB and BB in the pot it's alot closer.

I don't see how folding 89 is bad, your basically getting it in against sets, A and K high flush draws which also has a gutshot and a pair, flopped flushes and 2pair may or may not get it in depending on the player. I didn't put a lot of thought into this range here and some of it can probably be discounted but you will find it tough enough to come up with a range were you get 89 in good here. Also the last player to act can easily have some draw that he won't be folding.

If you call with 89 here you are basically hoping that the pot is checked down as you will not like any heart, A, K, 9 or board pairing on the turn

FWIW, do you call or shove with 89 there?

[BuChan]

There is already ~€36 in the pot when the action comes back to the hero in the straddle pre. The sb only has €98 behind. If hero repops the sb pre and we get it in then we only need about 42% equity vs his getting it in range for the play to be +ev, and thats assuming he never folds to our 3bet( if he ever folds then its definitely a 3bet pre). We should have this 42% anyway even vs a tight range for the sb.

don't think there's really any chance you have 42% against an average loose passive live shortstacker. there is of course a chance he folds. i'd say this is a realistic range for him getting it in, perhaps a little wide even.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 33.514% 26.24% 07.28% 30999825 8596543.50 { AsJd }
Hand 1: 66.486% 59.21% 07.28% 69956064 8596543.50 { 88+, AJs+, AJo+ }

if this were his opening range but he folded 88/99 and AJ to a 3-bet, how would you figure out whether or not it's +ev to do so?

[Line Us]

don't think there's really any chance you have 42% against an average loose passive live shortstacker. there is of course a chance he folds. i'd say this is a realistic range for him getting it in, perhaps a little wide even.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 33.514% 26.24% 07.28% 30999825 8596543.50 { AsJd }
Hand 1: 66.486% 59.21% 07.28% 69956064 8596543.50 { 88+, AJs+, AJo+ }

if this were his opening range but he folded 88/99 and AJ to a 3-bet, how would you figure out whether or not it's +ev to do so?

The opening range of 88+, ajs+ is 6.8%, a calling range of 1010+, aqs+ is 4.7%. So he folds to the 3bet (6.8-4.7)/6.8 x 100% = ~30%,

Heres a rough calculation of the EV.


30% of the time we win €37( the dead money in the pot now)

70% of the time we lose €44.3 (113 - ( .277 (248) )

EV=0.30*37 - 0.70*49.2 = - €23.34

So its not + ev if that is he range. I think you have his range too tight though. Id say he will open a bit wider and we should have more equity too when we get it in. Its not as clear cut a 3bet as i thought though when ya do the maths.

edit: just to clarify, 113 is the ammount we need to invest to get him allin. 248 is the size of the total pot.

[BuChan]

^thanks for that^ i think that range is reasonable for a good number of shortstacking live nits i've played.