50 nl JJ in SB

[TheSnapper]

Villain is pretty aggro 25/21/4.8 over 681 hands
att steal 36% (73)
fold to 3bet 71% (21)
cbet flop 81% (47)
cbet turn 35% (17)

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

BB ($128.76)
UTG ($36.02)
MP ($53.49)
CO ($62.94)
Button ($70.87)
Hero (SB) ($55.04)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, J
2 folds, CO bets $1.75, 1 fold, Hero calls $1.50, 1 fold

His co raising range is wide here, but his 3bet calling range is tightish and likely dominates hence no 3 bet. Thoughts?

Flop: ($4) 3, 2, 10 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $3, Hero calls $3

Can see no reason to raise here, dry enough flop and likely he has 3-6 outs ?

Turn: ($10) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $8, Hero ?

[RoadSweeper]

Pre flop is usually a 3bet for me.

I dont think he calls any hands that dominates you. (QQ+)

As played I go into check call mode, no planning on folding - unless he has ridic tight barelling stats.

[TheSnapper]

Pre flop is usually a 3bet for me.

I dont think he calls any hands that dominates you. (QQ+)

As played I go into check call mode, no planning on folding - unless he has ridic tight barelling stats.

True, but he folds almost all the hands we dominate which is bad

[ShaneTheMofo]

His co raising range is wide here, but his 3bet calling range is tightish and likely dominates hence no 3 bet. Thoughts?

If he has you dominated then he will probably 4-bet, then you can fold. The amount of times he raises here vs amount of times he continues vs 3 bets means that even if you do have to lay it down, it will still be profitable.
Calling loses value for your hand, whilst giving him the opportunity to better his hand and put you in an awkward spot because as you said, his CO range is wide so he could have anything. A 3-bet also narrows his range down for you, thus giving you much needed info for the rest of the hand. You also get rid of the junk part of his range which could play tricky for you, and get value from the types of hands you most likely have dominated

[ShaneTheMofo]

True, but he folds almost all the hands we dominate which is bad

Why do you think that?

Do you not think he'll continue here with a small-medium pair, suited connectors etc.? He's got position. Thats without the fact that you say he's aggro. How are you playing stats wise?

[daire]

Have you been 3betting at all? Just because the guy hasn't been calling a lot of 3bets generally doesn't mean he won't here. If you've been 3betting with any sort of frequency he can call fairly comfortably with a wide enough range in position against a SB 3bettor (/better? I dunno).

What would you guys think about a blockerbet on a club river if he's seen us c/c with flushdraws before? Or is this just plain retarded? I'd c/c turn and river against an unknown but if we had specific history could this be good?

[TheSnapper]

My 3 bet from the Blinds is 3.5%


Say he's raising 30% of hands, something like....

22+,A2s+,K8s+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,A2o+,K9o+,Q9o+,JTo and we elect to 3bet

He 4 bets 3%....
QQ+,AQs+,AKo

Calls 7.5% which is generous imho .....
JJ-22,AJs-ATs,KQs,QJs,AQo,KQo

The rest he folds

what have we achieved?

[ShaneTheMofo]

My 3 bet from the Blinds is 3.5%


Say he's raising 30% of hands, something like....

22+,A2s+,K8s+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,A2o+,K9o+,Q9o+,JTo and we elect to 3bet

He 4 bets 3%....
QQ+,AQs+,AKo

Calls 7.5% which is generous imho .....
JJ-22,AJs-ATs,KQs,QJs,AQo,KQo

The rest he folds

what have we achieved?

AJs-ATs,KQs,QJs,AQo,KQo

But since you have such a low 3-bet can you discount these type hands from his range and include more kind of SC type hands?

[TheSnapper]

he raises 30% from cut off

Folds 71% of that and continues with 29% or 30*.29 = 8.7%

okay you're post is gone guess you figured it yourself

[ShaneTheMofo]

I think he calls with more this type of range

JJ-22,KJs+,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,AQo,KQo

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 73.798% 73.12% 00.68% 133958894 1250356.00 { JcJh }
Hand 1: 26.202% 25.52% 00.68% 46756922 1250356.00 { JJ-22, KJs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, AQo, KQo }

[ShaneTheMofo]

he raises 30% from cut off

Folds 71% of that and continues with 29% or 30*.29 = 8.7%

Yeah im sorry my bad i'm an idiot and misread

[TheSnapper]

AJs-ATs,KQs,QJs,AQo,KQo

But since you have such a low 3-bet can you discount these type hands from his range and include more kind of SC type hands?

What are we wanting to happen when we 3bet?

[ShaneTheMofo]

What are we wanting to happen when we 3bet?

I think we want to get value from those types that we do dominate and not so much just 3-bet and fold when an ace flops. Ideally get a lowish board, giving him maybe a pair and a draw so as to call more bets and make mistakes.

Or else we are just happy with a fold and take the few blinds down.

[TheSnapper]

I think we want to get value from those types that we do dominate and not so much just 3-bet and fold when an ace flops. Ideally get a lowish board, giving him maybe a pair and a draw so as to call more bets and make mistakes.

Or else we are just happy with a fold and take the few blinds down.

We are oop does'nt that make it more llikely we make mistakes.

His calling range is more like JJ-22,AJs,KQs,AQo, he could be less inclined to call with 22-66 in favour of sc's but that would'nt change much really.
The fact we've had fold JJ to a 4 bet is a huge negative here too.
Are you cbetting 100% flops

[TommyGunne]

Seriously what do people call 3bets with? Having KJ and 22-88 in a call of a 3b range is a bit silly. I'd seriously discount them without a priori knowledge. Not having KK+ as some weight in his calling range is similar.

I'd 3b this pretty much always pre. C/calling down is fine post. Against some villains you can c/r the flop here. If you had some reads or history it make it OK, but you need to be aggro too. I guess c/calling down is fine.

[ShaneTheMofo]

Seriously what do people call 3bets with? Having KJ and 22-88 in a call of a 3b range is a bit silly. I'd seriously discount them without a priori knowledge. Not having KK+ as some weight in his calling range is similar.

I'd 3b this pretty much always pre. C/calling down is fine post. Against some villains you can c/r the flop here. If you had some reads or history it make it OK, but you need to be aggro too. I guess c/calling down is fine.

Ok agree on the KJ part. Why is calling with small pp terrible when hero doesnt 3 bet too much? Is there not good implied odds? Genuine question, im here to learn

[daire]

he raises 30% from cut off

Folds 71% of that and continues with 29% or 30*.29 = 8.7%

okay you're post is gone guess you figured it yourself

His 3b calling range will be wider here than usual given that he has position so saying that he's only continuing with the top 8.7% of hands based on his stats is deceptive imo.

[TheSnapper]

His 3b calling range will be wider here than usual given that he has position so saying that he's only continuing with the top 8.7% of hands based on his stats is deceptive imo.

you are totally correct

[daire]

you are totally correct

Is this meant to be condescending? or am I being oversensitive?

[ShipIt]

Completely off topic is this Daire that grinds the fitz???, if so u run bad sir...

[TheSnapper]

Is this meant to be condescending? or am I being oversensitive?

oversensitive, but I could have put it better though tbh.

[TheSnapper]

Villain is pretty aggro 25/21/4.8 over 681 hands
att steal 36% (73)
fold to 3bet 71% (21)
cbet flop 81% (47)
cbet turn 35% (17)

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

BB ($128.76)
UTG ($36.02)
MP ($53.49)
CO ($62.94)
Button ($70.87)
Hero (SB) ($55.04)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, J
2 folds, CO bets $1.75, 1 fold, Hero calls $1.50, 1 fold

His co raising range is wide here, but his 3bet calling range is tightish and likely dominates hence no 3 bet. Thoughts?

Flop: ($4) 3, 2, 10 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $3, Hero calls $3

Can see no reason to raise here, dry enough flop and likely he has 3-6 outs ?

Turn: ($10) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $8, Hero calls

River: ($26) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $22, Hero ?

[jimbling]

I think the call preflop is fine. I would 3 bet a lot with JJ, but in this case I think you're correct to just call.
1) He folds to 3bets 71%. That's pretty high and you're going to fold out most of the range you are ahead of.
2) You are oop against an aggro player.
3) Your 3bet from the blinds is small. He's going to respect it much more than usual, so his fold to 3bet will be even higher than usual.
4) He is aggro post flop... so check calling can work out very profitable.

I'd 3b this pretty much always pre. C/calling down is fine post. Against some villains you can c/r the flop here. If you had some reads or history it make it OK, but you need to be aggro too. I guess c/calling down is fine.

I'm pretty surprised to see you say this. It was you that thought me the value of calling in this kind of spot.... and it has worked out very well for me so far.

[jimbling]

Turn: ($10) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $8, Hero ?

I would be getting worried here.
His Flop CB is 81% and his Turn CB is 35%. There's a big gap there, so he obviously gives up a lot.
I think you're going to be behind quite a bit.... it's getting pretty tight.

River: ($26) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $22, Hero ?

Okay, now it's a pretty strange line. Firstly, it's a pretty big bet.... not your usual value bet. It's also a very dangerous river, especially against a oop check caller. I don' think AA/KK/QQ bet at all here, especially not this much.
AcKc / KcQc / 10,10 / bluff is the kind of range I would put him on.
I think I fold here, unless I know the guy bluffs rivers.


I just noticed we only have 681 hands on the guy, so a lot of the above assumptions could be wrong.

[TheSnapper]

Thanks for the replies chaps.

It really would be interesting to hear some more solid reasoning for the 3 bet preflop line, in position I can see merit in 3 betting, but in this spot and given we're 3bet folding is'nt it better to 3bet 72o and not give up the value of our JJ then again maybe JJ should'nt be at the lower end of my 3bet range here.

Result
My plan for the hand was to passively exploit his aggro tendancies, as is often the case with these types, one of my notes on him was "show him weak".
So from the outset I was always check calling, I am a bit of a coward though and it got a bit scary tbh, particularly the big river bet.

But, he's aggro but not useless and I figured he can't see anything close to that kind of calling value in my under repped range and was happier to call the $22 than say $16 ish.

CO had A, Q (one pair, twos).
Outcome: Hero won $67

[jimbling]

Thanks for the replies chaps.

It really would be interesting to hear some more solid reasoning for the 3 bet preflop line, in position I can see merit in 3 betting, but in this spot and given we're 3bet folding is'nt it better to 3bet 72o and not give up the value of our JJ then again maybe JJ should'nt be at the lower end of my 3bet range here.

Result
My plan for the hand was to passively exploit his aggro tendancies, as is often the case with these types, one of my notes on him was "show him weak".
So from the outset I was always check calling, I am a bit of a coward though and it got a bit scary tbh, particularly the big river bet.

But, he's aggro but not useless and I figured he can't see anything close to that kind of calling value in my under repped range and was happier to call the $22 than say $16 ish.

CO had A, Q (one pair, twos).
Outcome: Hero won $67

Bluffing was definitely part of his range, but it shouldnt make up too big a part considering his Turn CB tendencies. I would wonder what his notes he has on you. A guy that doesn't double barrel too often just triple barrel bluffed you on a dangerous board.

Still think this is probably a fold on the river.

[Hectorjelly]

Still think this is probably a fold on the river.

There is nowhere close to a fold on the river

[Hectorjelly]

I mean this obv