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**Fiend** · 03-02-11, 20:40

This in the deepstack?

Interesting hand...

**BlindLimper** · 03-02-11, 20:48

Why did you 3bet to 15.5k on the flop? This is where you made a mistake imo. You should know what you are going to do if he 4bets you before you 3bet on the flop.

I would have flatted his raise to 7k on the flop and evaluated the turn. Id likely call a lot of turns too as his line is weird. He check min raises you on the flop when he has the initiative on a dry board!!

**TommyGunne** · 03-02-11, 21:39

3betting flop is awful.

**Gholimoli** · 03-02-11, 21:56

as other have said.
3betting the flop with the intention of folding to 4bet is really awful.

any reasons for 3bet folding the flop?

**Flushdraw** · 03-02-11, 22:54

Preflop is too big. 550/600 is fine

Once you call 3200 pre, you're always going to faced with a tough decision on the flop. Once it's anything less than Q high, you'll have an overpair and if there's an A or K on the flop you'll be playing the guessing game whether he has it or not

When he checks to you, i might check behind. He shouldn't really be folding anything that he 3bet with on this flop. I think your hand is somewhat disguised by checking and you might get more value from underpairs or let him bluff AK/AQ on the turn. I quite like a bit of pot control on the 2nd level of a 50k starting stack too seeing as almost everyone will be relatively unknown

**Mellor** · 03-02-11, 23:28

Pre is way too big, 550 is fine

3 betting was burning money imo, after he check min-raised, I prob call and bink a Q

**Carl_Morrissey** · 03-02-11, 23:47

Pre is ok, generally I'm going to raise 2.5x-3.5x in that spot depending on opponent.

Never 3 bet in this spot if your planning on folding to a 4 bet. Call the min-raise and play poker on the turn. Some of the time I actually check back the flop if I feel like I'm being trapped.

**Gholimoli** · 04-02-11, 00:18

Originally posted by Carl_Morrissey View Post

Pre is ok, generally I'm going to raise 2.5x-3.5x in that spot depending on opponent.

Never 3 bet in this spot if your planning on folding to a 4 bet. Call the min-raise and play poker on the turn. Some of the time I actually check back the flop if I feel like I'm being trapped.

pre is not really ok.
i didnt notice the size of the open at first that's why i didn't comment.

waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too big of an open.

i keep my opens to 2x BBand maybe some times 2.5xBB.
if ppl are gonna fold to a 3x raise,they will most likely fold to a 2BB raise as well.

the only person you need to worry about usually is the BB (getting good odds to call).
and even then you will end up playing a raised pot in position v BB(can't really ask for a better spot).

there are lots of benifits IMO to opening small.

**peterswellman** · 04-02-11, 00:55

With such a big open from the button it's usually a display of strength that isn't actually there. I 3x and even 4x at times to let the villian know i'm not folding if they push and committing myself. No fold equity. Situational play though and certainly want people to think they've fold equity when i've a hand like QQ on the button.

Never played a deepstack game but that opening is mental because you're never going to win a huge pot imo. Why did you 4x?

**Gholimoli** · 04-02-11, 01:18

Originally posted by peterswellman View Post

With such a big open from the button it's usually a display of strength that isn't actually there. I 3x and even 4x at times to let the villian know i'm not folding if they push and committing myself. No fold equity. Situational play though and certainly want people to think they've fold equity when i've a hand like QQ on the button.

Never played a deepstack game but that opening is mental because you're never going to win a huge pot imo. Why did you 4x?

he is 250BB deep.
it makes no sense IMO to be talking about sending messages of FE to oppnents with an open raise.

**peterswellman** · 04-02-11, 01:28

Originally posted by Gholimoli View Post

he is 250BB deep.
it makes no sense IMO to be talking about sending messages of FE to oppnents with an open raise.

Agree, i'm just giving an example of when you might 4x on the button. Basicially just giving him an example of the type of situation he would do it.

I thought the second paragraph would make that clear.

Edited- Basicially just taking up on keeping the openings to min and 2.5x. Sometimes you need to make it bigger.

**Carl_Morrissey** · 04-02-11, 01:29

I was pointing out by far the biggest mistake the poster made in the hand was the 3-bet on the flop. Sure his button raise is a little big. I really don't like a min raise. I'd be standard 3x-ing this button because it just looks like a button steal, I'd be looking to get a decent sized pot to take to a flop.

**Mellor** · 04-02-11, 02:22

Originally posted by peterswellman View Post

Agree, i'm just giving an example of when you might 4x on the button. Basicially just giving him an example of the type of situation he would do it.

I knew what you meant, but your point was so far removed from the thread it made no sense to bring it up, 250BB deep, FE is not remotely an issue PF.

But seeing as you did bring it up. If you were in such a situation, that an open to 4BBs made is plainly clear that the blinds had no FE. Then open shoving is a far far far better option than opening to 4BBs. Basically, opening to 4BBs is almost always wrong in late stages. So its still bad, in general.

**gorrrr72** · 04-02-11, 04:50

I like a smaller raise preflop but never a minraise at this level. 475-550 without limpers.
Really weird line on the flop, I really hate the 3-bet, just throwing chips away without seeing a turn and not knowing if the fold was good or not.

If he has an overpair then he probably slows down if you had flatted the flop 7k, and you might get to see the river for free.

**Guest** · 04-02-11, 10:49

Thanks guys for comments.
I hate min raises in any stage of the tournament. And i was masking my hand looking like an overbet for Button looking like a steal.
I think i made good laydown there, as the french guy was playing very fishy. Raising with any 2, 3 betting with air. I saw him folding good few times for 3 bet so thats why i decided to 3 bet him on the flop but he had a hand and had me beaten... yes i could of flatted the raise on the flop but i thought i will take the pot right here and right now as it was getting too big and i didnt knew if i want to see another h on the turn...
Back to learning stage...

**peterswellman** · 04-02-11, 10:53

Originally posted by Mellor View Post

I knew what you meant, but your point was so far removed from the thread it made no sense to bring it up, 250BB deep, FE is not remotely an issue PF.

But seeing as you did bring it up. If you were in such a situation, that an open to 4BBs made is plainly clear that the blinds had no FE. Then open shoving is a far far far better option than opening to 4BBs. Basically, opening to 4BBs is almost always wrong in late stages. So its still bad, in general.

Meh, just trying to help the guy in general and show him the type of situation a 4x might be necessary. Heaven forbid we could give some advice outside what he asked. He 4x in an incorect spot, i'm going to show him a spot where it would be ok to 3.5x or 4x. That's all. Thinking outside the box, this guy is trying to improve as a whole not just learn from on hand.

Not if you have a small blind who has a really awkward stack size IMO. If both short then fine but if the sb has an stack that could damage or eliminate you badly then 3x and 4x are the way to go.

For example, the BB is playing 12k. Our stack is 40k, the sb's is 50. Blinds 500/1000. I can't imagine how it would be profitable to cram in our stack here. Instead we would probably be best 3.5x....even 4x it and calling a shove from bb and folding to plays from the SB imo. Hands like A rag and maybe small pocket pairs where we're happy to get it in with the BB but not the small. Obviously this works best if the SB isn't very good and not going to resteal on us that often.

**Moneymaker** · 04-02-11, 12:21

Originally posted by GedasT View Post

Thanks guys for comments.
I hate min raises in any stage of the tournament. And i was masking my hand looking like an overbet for Button looking like a steal.
I think i made good laydown there, as the french guy was playing very fishy. Raising with any 2, 3 betting with air. I saw him folding good few times for 3 bet so thats why i decided to 3 bet him on the flop but he had a hand and had me beaten... yes i could of flatted the raise on the flop but i thought i will take the pot right here and right now as it was getting too big and i didnt knew if i want to see another h on the turn...
Back to learning stage...

Problem with this line is you have no clue what to do if he calls your raise or shoves. You are basically bluffing and doing this with QQ is terrible beyond words. It's total donk logic at work here 'I don't think he has anything so ill just raise and take it down'.

If he was playing as aggro as you say, why the heck would you raise????!

Just flat the mad fcker and let him bluff the turn and river, and if he does have you beat, you lose the minimum. You lose to so few hands here but if we put a lot of chips in, we're probably smoked. He's likely to be bluffing on this type of board, but once we show so much aggression it narrows his range down to hands that crush us.

Pre-flop raise size is awful too. 4x is way way too much. I'd be making it 525 in that position with ALL my hands. That deep I would be raising 80% of my buttons/COs when folded around. I don't want to make it 4x with spanners, get 3bet and have to fold and i've lost more chips. 2.5x is plenty and it keeps you nice and balanced if you keep it consistent from that position. And if the blinds call us, happy days. It's a pot where i'm in position and i'm the aggressor. This is a good thing.

**Fiend** · 04-02-11, 12:31

Originally posted by Moneymaker View Post

Problem with this line is you have no clue what to do if he calls your raise or shoves. You are basically bluffing and doing this with QQ is terrible beyond words. It's total donk logic at work here 'I don't think he has anything so ill just raise and take it down'.

If he was playing as aggro as you say, why the heck would you raise????!

Just flat the mad fcker and let him bluff the turn and river, and if he does have you beat, you lose the minimum. You lose to so few hands here but if we put a lot of chips in, we're probably smoked. He's likely to be bluffing on this type of board, but once we show so much aggression it narrows his range down to hands that crush us.

Pre-flop raise size is awful too. 4x is way way too much. I'd be making it 525 in that position with ALL my hands. That deep I would be raising 80% of my buttons/COs when folded around. I don't want to make it 4x with spanners, get 3bet and have to fold and i've lost more chips. 2.5x is plenty and it keeps you nice and balanced if you keep it consistent from that position. And if the blinds call us, happy days. It's a pot where i'm in position and i'm the aggressor. This is a good thing.

If this is hand from the burlington then there are different factors at play then a simple internet deepstack. People calling way light because of implied odds etc. French Fish whos calling with lots of bad holdings Bet sizing will be different. I like the overbet pre but dunno what the flop 3 bet achieves?

**Guest** · 04-02-11, 12:39

Originally posted by Fiend View Post

I like the overbet pre but dunno what the flop 3 bet achieves?

make him fold the drawing hand

just he made a move that i wasnt expecting.... If he flat calls my 3 bet my plan was to push if no h...

Probably played it crap...

**AndyFatBastard** · 04-02-11, 15:14

Why would you want him to fold a drawing hand? Firstly, he's more likely to miss his draw than hit it. Secondly, if he has a drawing hand then that means he's putting money into the pot with a worse hand than yours. This is a good thing and something you want to encourage him to do.

**Guest** · 04-02-11, 15:48

Originally posted by AndyFB View Post

Why would you want him to fold a drawing hand? Firstly, he's more likely to miss his draw than hit it. Secondly, if he has a drawing hand then that means he's putting money into the pot with a worse hand than yours. This is a good thing and something you want to encourage him to do.

Because that fish was hitting every fckn draw...

**Carl_Morrissey** · 04-02-11, 16:06

Originally posted by GedasT View Post

Because that fish was hitting every fckn draw...

Dude your digging a deeper and deeper hole for yourself here. You posted the question looking for advice on how you played the hand, try not to get all defensive when people disagree and/or criticise with your play. Take the advice on board, and use to to your advantage the next session you play. The whole point of poker is trying to get get money in when you have an edge. "Making draws fold" versus your hand here is counter productive, this is why your 3-bet logic for the flop is so flawed.

**Moneymaker** · 04-02-11, 16:18

Originally posted by GedasT View Post

Because that fish was hitting every fckn draw...

facepalm.jpg

But seriously, I understand you're not happy about being out of the tourny, you're not happy about the hand. Getting defensive to posters who are trying to give you constructive criticism in the hopes you might learn and improve your game doesn't help.

Just consider every move you made in the hand. Ask yourself why you're doing it. You need to have a plan for every eventuality before you make a move in any particular hand. It's a leak I have too I must admit, one i've tried to plug in recent times but it's so so important to plan for how your opponent will react to your actions.

When you 3bet the flop, are you raising in the hopes he'll continue with worse hands? Unlikely on this board given the pre-flop action. Are you trying to blow him off a better hand? Again unlikely on this texture. 99.9999999999% of the time these are the only reasons to bet or raise. Raising hoping to 'take the pot down because I don't think he has anything' is a very, very flawed thought process.

**Gholimoli** · 04-02-11, 16:42

op,
you have some really bad misconceptions about poker.
alot of what you said in your later posts just don't make sense and some times the opposite of what you say is actually correct.

**Guest** · 04-02-11, 17:31

easy easy guys. Relax. I dont get defencive. Im not irish or english so my english language is different and its not allways easy to explain what i mean.
poker is individual game and everybody thinks different. As i have good results so im doing something right...
peace

**handofgod** · 05-02-11, 11:59

OP, post your reads on villain when you post hand as it obviously has a bearing on your other actions

I dont mind the 4bb open if there is a call happy fish in blinds but it wouldnt be my standard open

3bet/fold on flop is awful imo, you need to know he calls with worse and only 4bets with better.Against villain as described Im calling the raise and usually calling down. Also if he has a draw you want him to call your flop 3bet. When you bet it should be because you think he will call with a worse hand or fold a better hand. You dont want him to fold a worse hand

**nismo9** · 14-02-11, 06:28

Fold his 3bet on flop

**Wombatman** · 14-02-11, 09:58

In this type of tournie, where the bb to stack ratio is big, a 2.5x raise pre is the same as a limp. Players who were going to limp behind call and players who were going to raise behind still raise.

In these events, at this level, guys have a wide calling ranges and little regard for the size of the raise. So once they have made up their minds to call with their QTs they will call off 4x or 6x or 8x because it seems like a small amount relative to the starting stack.

Players here dont remember what you raised to the previous round. They may remember that you raised but rarely the x bb amount.

Raise big with your big hands here to isolate and get chip in the middle. 800 is super fine.

Later in tournie you can settle into a pattern of smaller consistent raises.

**nismo9** · 24-02-11, 19:21

If you are going to be 3betting 15k aint enough here. Theres no way thats getting him off anything

**8611** · 24-02-11, 21:37

for the record I don't think the OP got defensive at all

as others have said raise less pre, just flat his CR

as played, usually it would now be a fold, against villain as described I'm definitely considering calling and doing the loots on further streets

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