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Flushdraw and overs OOP vs Bet and raise

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    #1

    Flushdraw and overs OOP vs Bet and raise

    This is a pretty standard fold right? Especially with UTG to act after opening and betting?

    What happens if we are closing the betting here? What play d you like?

    UTG playing 18/14/2.0 big loser over 5k hands, BTN playing 19/13/4.1 over 500 hands ad is a marginal loser.

    Standard shove with ATdd here if we were holding?

    Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (6 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    Hero (SB) ($22.26)
    BB ($9.97)
    UTG ($23.84)
    MP ($26.64)
    CO ($7.07)
    Button ($20.61)

    Preflop: Hero is SB with J, Q
    UTG bets $0.60, 2 folds, Button calls $0.60, Hero calls $0.50, BB calls $0.40

    Flop: ($2.40) 3, 9, 2 (4 players)
    Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets $1.60, Button raises $4.80,Hero??
    Tags: None
    #2
    Yeah, you want the nut flush draw at least here against those nits. Even with the nut flush it not going to be making you much money if any.

    Comment

      #3
      I wouldn't say it's a standard shove with A10dd because the action before you looks pretty strong. I'm not a huge fan of calling pre with this. Demons usually take over me and i squeeze. As played, i think i fold

      Comment

        #4
        yep fold

        which one of them had A9dd

        Comment

          #5
          Originally posted by Flushdraw View Post
          I wouldn't say it's a standard shove with A10dd because the action before you looks pretty strong. I'm not a huge fan of calling pre with this. Demons usually take over me and i squeeze. As played, i think i fold
          Squeezing here pre flop is pretty bad and a waste of a hand.

          Calling is much much better.
          This may or may not be an original thought of my own.
          All efforts were made to make this thought original but with the abundance of thoughts in the world the originality of this thought cannot be guaranteed.
          The author is not liable for any issue arising from the platitudinous nature of this post.

          Comment

            #6
            Originally posted by Theresa View Post
            Squeezing here pre flop is pretty bad and a waste of a hand.

            Calling is much much better.
            Meh calling OOP with QJ against nits is hardly that much better, we end up in lots of tough spots on the flop. I dont think its the worst spot to squeeze either, 3betting UTG usually gets a lot of respect in the micros.

            As played folding is best imo, we have close to 0 FE

            Comment

              #7
              Originally posted by handofgod View Post
              Meh calling OOP with QJ against nits is hardly that much better, we end up in lots of tough spots on the flop. I dont think its the worst spot to squeeze either, 3betting UTG usually gets a lot of respect in the micros.

              As played folding is best imo, we have close to 0 FE
              Squeezing a nits UTG range, when another nit calls with a hand that plays so well post flop is ridiculous.

              The UTG raisers range is so top heavy that you'll get shoved on/4bet a greater % of the time than say it was a CO opener or a BTN opener. His range is stronger from the get go.

              We dont end up in any tough spots on the flop. I expect the nit to play pretty honest from this position in a multi way pot so play accordingly. Calling here is definitely better than squeezing.

              IF I was going to squeeze here it would be because I think they will fold a lot, or that they could call with worse given the dynamics. As it is though, you definitely wont be called with worse, they MAY call with better and then your oop post flop with a RIO hand, and given that they ranges are skewed towards better hands ( I mean his PFR overall is 14% ffs, what his UTG PFR) he'll 4 bet a hell of a lot too.
              This may or may not be an original thought of my own.
              All efforts were made to make this thought original but with the abundance of thoughts in the world the originality of this thought cannot be guaranteed.
              The author is not liable for any issue arising from the platitudinous nature of this post.

              Comment

                #8
                Never ever folding pre here in a month of Sundays. QJs is a great hand to play multiway against anyone.
                "I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson

                Comment

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Theresa View Post
                  Squeezing a nits UTG range, when another nit calls with a hand that plays so well post flop is ridiculous.

                  The UTG raisers range is so top heavy that you'll get shoved on/4bet a greater % of the time than say it was a CO opener or a BTN opener. His range is stronger from the get go.

                  We dont end up in any tough spots on the flop. I expect the nit to play pretty honest from this position in a multi way pot so play accordingly. Calling here is definitely better than squeezing.

                  IF I was going to squeeze here it would be because I think they will fold a lot, or that they could call with worse given the dynamics. As it is though, you definitely wont be called with worse, they MAY call with better and then your oop post flop with a RIO hand, and given that they ranges are skewed towards better hands ( I mean his PFR overall is 14% ffs, what his UTG PFR) he'll 4 bet a hell of a lot too.
                  I know utg opening range is strong, and if I squeeze here its a bluff worse never calls. But he usually still folds a good % of his opening range to a 3bet as our value range when we 3bet here is superstrong and btn folds like 95% of time. I wouldnt squeeze here all the time, but I dont think its really bad to squeeze

                  I dont see how this hand plays so well postflop against 2 nits OOP. If we hit TP we are still going to be in a spot where its tough to extract value or we are outkicked. Sure we can play our draws fast and hope to make them fold weak made hands, but I'm not sure thats always going to be that profitable. If someone can explain WHY QJs plays well multiway it would be great as Im probably missing something

                  I think folding, calling and squeezing are all valid options pre. If it plays as well multiway as most seem to think then folding and squeezing obv suck

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Snap fold pre for me. Squeezing is godawful, calling isn't far off. Even flatting here is a RIO spot. Basically all of his UTG range dominates us.

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Instafold the flop, sucks but you can eaisly get it in dominated here.
                      Looking for full or part time poker and betting writers. PM if interested.

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Anyone for leading the flop?

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Mullicker View Post
                          Anyone for leading the flop?
                          Every so often yes.

                          As played fold.

                          Comment

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