Aj 3bet pot

[Theresa]

No HH as I'm in work but a hand I played last night that's been bugging me;

Villain is a reg, didn't have many hands in him but he's pretty normal!

100bb deep.

He opens the btn to 1.50, I 3bet the bb with AJo to 5.00. He calls.

Pot:10.25

Flop is Q76r.

I bet 6.50, he calls.

Pot:23.25

Turn: 9s bringing a spade draw.

Check. Check.

Pot:23.25

River Ac.

I bet 11.50, he shoves!

I?

[40something]

No HH as I'm in work but a hand I played last night that's been bugging me;

Villain is a reg, didn't have many hands in him but he's pretty normal!

100bb deep.

He opens the btn to 1.50, I 3bet the bb with AJo to 5.00. He calls.

Pot:10.25

Flop is Q76r.

I bet 6.50, he calls.

Pot:23.25

Turn: 9s bringing a spade draw.

Check. Check.

Pot:23.25

River Ac.

I bet 11.50, he shoves!

I?

Good fold, his AQ has you crushed

[Theresa]

I actually bet 13.50 on the river.

[RoadSweeper]

Easy fold

[Bubbleking]

yup played it very standard once you fold

[Theresa]

Can we give him a perceived range? And give me a percieved range too?

[Bubbleking]

Can we give him a perceived range? And give me a percieved range too?

his range is sets, AQ and Bluffs.

your range is Ax

[Theresa]

his range is sets, AQ and Bluffs.

your range is Ax

Sets? The only set he has is QQ, and he might 4 bet that pre

Give me some pre flop ranges and work them through the hand.

[Bubbleking]

Sets? The only set he has is QQ, and he might 4 bet that pre

Give me some pre flop ranges and work them through the hand.

why hasnt he 7s or 6s - you dont have a spade draw so he isnt worried about that.

stop trying to find a reason to call

[Theresa]

why hasnt he 7s or 6s - you dont have a spade draw so he isnt worried about that.

stop trying to find a reason to call

Im not trying to find a reason for anything! I would like to discuss all the options though, I mean... This is a forum.

He doesn't call here pre with 6s or 7s because it's bad and he is solid enough as far as I can tell.

[Flushdraw]

Im not trying to find a reason for anything! I would like to discuss all the options though, I mean... This is a forum.

He doesn't call here pre with 6s or 7s because it's bad and he is solid enough as far as I can tell.

I'm only trying to understand cash properly, but what should he do with them? Just fold once he gets 3bet from the blinds, or is he 4betting as a bluff, or 4betting getting it in becasue both seem worse than calling the 3bet

[Emmet]

why hasnt he 7s or 6s - you dont have a spade draw so he isnt worried about that.

stop trying to find a reason to call

Decent reg shouldnt be calling 3bets with low pocket pairs 100bbs deep.

Has this guy seen you 3bet much?
Do people think flop Cbet is standard here?
IMO regs calls 3bets ip with ATs+ 88+ and maybe some sc's that they don't like letting go of 78s-qjs maybe...

Vs that range, I like the Cbet actually, hadn't thought it through enough.

The river shove is a bit weird, I can't really detail why, but my gut likes a c/c on the river, though this could well be awful

[Bubbleking]

I'm only trying to understand cash properly, but what should he do with them? Just fold once he gets 3bet from the blinds, or is he 4betting as a bluff, or 4betting getting it in?

The maths heads will say he should fold after getting 3bet because he doesnt hit a set and get paid off often enough to make it profitable. This fails to take into account the times villain floats with them on the flop to take it away on the turn or the times he successfullt bluff catches bla bla bla

anyway long story short Im comfortable calling with PP's OTB because its fun making out of position 3 bettors go through hell - this also stops them 3 betting you a tonne and overall is profitable imo in the grand scheme of things.

Tournaments its easier - just bang them in

[Theresa]

I'm only trying to understand cash properly, but what should he do with them? Just fold once he gets 3bet from the blinds, or is he 4betting as a bluff, or 4betting getting it in becasue both seem worse than calling the 3bet

Folding mostly, 4 betting sometimes but not very often although they aren't bad hands to 4 bet but never calling really.

[Bubbleking]

Folding mostly, 4 betting sometimes but not very often although they aren't bad hands to 4 bet but never calling really.

jesus wept

[Emmet]

Bluff catching with pps vs any way decent player is setting money alight and rubbing it against your scrotum.

This is 50nl.

[Theresa]

jesus wept

As a bluff obviously!

[Bubbleking]

As a bluff obviously!

yeah I know but you said you wouldnt call with them because maths said it was bad. Bluffing with PP's is crap because you essentially have 2 outs or you are <20%. At least with some funky connectors you can have FD or SD outs so they are better for 4 bet bluffing if you are going to at all

edit - running out for a few hours so cant reply any more

[Theresa]

yeah I know but you said you wouldnt call with them because maths said it was bad. Bluffing with PP's is crap because you essentially have 2 outs or you are <20%. At least with some funky connectors you can have FD or SD outs so they are better for 4 bet bluffing if you are going to at all

edit - running out for a few hours so cant reply any more

Em... No! Just no.

The part of my openin range here that I use as a bluff will be the part that I don't think I can play profitably I just call what a perceive to be a light 3bet! Pocket pairs under 99 usually fill that part of my range. I'm mug more likely to call a 3bet with high suited connectors or what because I'll have much more equity overall on a massive range of flops. I suspect you'll disagree but well have to leave it there.

We are getting away from the point anyway.

If my range in the river is Ax as you say, and as the replies here state we are always folding to this action, is this not a great spot to bluff? Would it not be highly profitable?

[Emmet]

You need the right dynamics to 4bet small pps to make it profitable. Obviously someone who 3bets 16% from the bb but folds to 4bets 70/80% over amlarge sample will make it profitable to 4bet pps, and very unprofitable to call with them as he is 3betting tonnes of overcards which means we'll rarely see a flop that we're comfortable on that doesn't include us hitting our set, and he rarely pays us off when we do hit

[BlindLimper]

Im not trying to find a reason for anything! I would like to discuss all the options though, I mean... This is a forum.

He doesn't call here pre with 6s or 7s because it's bad and he is solid enough as far as I can tell.

This is a bad assumption to make without a decent amount of history/reads on the villian imo. A lot of regs will call here will all pp's. Im not saying it is the correct thing to do just that they will.

anyway long story short Im comfortable calling with PP's OTB because its fun making out of position 3 bettors go through hell - this also stops them 3 betting you a tonne and overall is profitable imo in the grand scheme of things.

See, people do call with PP's otb. Bubbleking id rather pick a hand whitch can make TP or a FD or some kind of a draw at least if im calling for the sole reason of taking them off their hand. U wont be able to shove all in over their c/bet or turn bet ever with PP's unless u hit ur two outs.

Folding mostly, 4 betting sometimes but not very often although they aren't bad hands to 4 bet but never calling really.

I know sone MSNL playes will 4bet these and other will just muck them. Be interested to hear what others think. I would be of the opinion that mucking them is way ahead of 4betting them. Id rather have a hand like Axs to 4bet.

[Emmet]

Axs is better to 4bet vs most. As I said, pps are only really 4bettable in certain scenarios. I doubt this would be one, I'd fold most low to mid pps vs a 3bet from a player with no reads

[Theresa]

Just on th last part( on phone so quotes are dodgy) I'd muck far more often than I'd 4 bet. Far far far more often, but IF I am to 4bet bluff, these hands and Axs where x < 5 are my choices!

Also on the part about the assumption regarding pps, I think it's much more dangerous to assume they will call with pps here.

This is a bad assumption to make without a decent amount of history/reads on the villian imo. A lot of regs will call here will all pp's. Im not saying it is the correct thing to do just that they will.



See, people do call with PP's otb. Bubbleking id rather pick a hand whitch can make TP or a FD or some kind of a draw at least if im calling for the sole reason of taking them off their hand. U wont be able to shove all in over their c/bet or turn bet ever with PP's unless u hit ur two outs.



I know sone MSNL playes will 4bet these and other will just muck them. Be interested to hear what others think. I would be of the opinion that mucking them is way ahead of 4betting them. Id rather have a hand like Axs to 4bet.

[BlindLimper]

Also Theresa would be interested to hear what you would have done if Villian 4bet you here and your reasons for 3betting a reg with AJo BB v BTN.

[Emmet]

If my range in the river is Ax as you say, and as the replies here state we are always folding to this action, is this not a great spot to bluff? Would it not be highly profitable?

So perhaps c/c is a better line than b/f as you give him a chance to bluff?

[Theresa]

Also Theresa would be interested to hear what you would have done if Villian 4bet you here and your reasons for 3betting a reg with AJo BB v BTN.

Yeah good point

I'd never usually 3bet this v an unknown too much value in calling I think.

If he 4bets me I have to fold really, and curse myself fir not just calling.

[digiman]

He can defo have 6s and 7s. Most regs call with pocket pairs here imo at 100nl-400nl so I would imagine 50nl players do as well. I would call here myself with 66 and 77 a fair bit and if I open it utg or mp I am nearly always calling a 3b from the blinds with pp.

[Theresa]

So perhaps c/c is a better line than b/f as you give him a chance to bluff?

Well no because he's never really bluff if you check because he has showdown value nearly always here.

And by checking your losing value from stubborn mid pairs and Q's expecting you to be this card.

I personally don't think he is bluffing here, but it seems like such a good spot, in fact given everyone here said easy fold, I think bluffing here would be sick profitable.

[carlop]

Sets? The only set he has is QQ, and he might 4 bet that pre

Give me some pre flop ranges and work them through the hand.

Could he not possibly have 99 here too?

[tipp86]

Im not a massive fan of the 3 bet with AJ as theres a very thin line between a value & bluff 3 bet and i think AJ is on that line.

Any decent reg will open AX on the btn and i feel flatting can take more advantage of them.

As for the guys range its tough to call it but its rare your good i think.

On the PP issue i think most of the time its a fold but there is def situations where you can call to float/hit against certain guys but this is very situational.

[Theresa]

Could he not possibly have 99 here too?

He could yeah, much more likely to have 99 than 66 or 77 I'd say.

No one seems to have answered my question, would this not be a sick spot to bluff in?

[RichieM]

I know that you said you havn't played many hand with this guy but would he have played suited 76 preflop. Generally I like to give them a go when I am deep in a cash situation and I am guessing he put you on a queen or an overpair thus the questionable shove. Not the best player myself but if I had to put him on anything it would be 76 suited

[DrJFF]

Does bet/folding this river make you super exploitable?


What is your calling range here?

[Theresa]

Does bet/folding this river make you super exploitable?


What is your calling range here?

This is what I'm trying to get at!

I don't ever think he is bluffing here! But... Would it not be very profitable if 8 was to bluff in similar spots! Seems it would be given the answers to this hand.

[RoadSweeper]

He is never taking advantage of your capped range. First off we have no reason to give him credit for it and 2nd he doesnt know you can fold a rivered TP

[Theresa]

He is never taking advantage of your capped range. First off we have no reason to give him credit for it and 2nd he doesnt know you can fold a rivered TP

Yes. I know. I've said that about 4 times now that I don't think he is bluffing.

What I'm asking is, would this not be a good spot for us to bluff in, given everyone here said snap fold, easy fold etc. If that's the case shoving here will be profitable.

No?

[Bubbleking]

I saw Durr do it successfully agaisnt aejones @ 25/50

but that was durr v aejones @ 25/50

[Theresa]

I saw Durr do it successfully agaisnt aejones @ 25/50

but that was durr v aejones @ 25/50

Do you have any interest in improving or are you happy jumping in and out of retirement?

:PAC:

[Carl_Morrissey]

Hate the 3 bet from bb to be honest. After he calls you on the flop check calling the river with top pair good kicker is very optimal. He can have a set here but a lot of stuff missed that he is firing regardless of the river, check and snap him off at the river.

[Bubbleking]

Do you have any interest in improving or are you happy jumping in and out of retirement?

:PAC:

I only retired once

[handofgod]

I wouldnt 3bet AJ here without a better read

If villain looks like a decent reg Im going to double barrell or check flop, because your cbet will be called a lot on that board (I suck in 3b pots though).

Also I think 66,77 are unlikely hands for villain to call with pre

[40something]

Yes. I know. I've said that about 4 times now that I don't think he is bluffing.

What I'm asking is, would this not be a good spot for us to bluff in, given everyone here said snap fold, easy fold etc. If that's the case shoving here will be profitable.

No?

Hmm, were you on the BTN Theresa and were you surprised when the AJ called your river bluff?

[gorrrr72]

Yes. I know. I've said that about 4 times now that I don't think he is bluffing.

What I'm asking is, would this not be a good spot for us to bluff in, given everyone here said snap fold, easy fold etc. If that's the case shoving here will be profitable.

No?

What people say is the right thing to do and what they do in the heat of the moment are normally 2 different things.
Easy fold is probably right but I can be a stubborn git here and call it off here.

[Theresa]

This wasnt actually a hand I was involved in.

It was a hand from "Let there be range" on 3bet pots.

The authors advocate bluffing here will be very profitable as people will bet fold here with Ax a ton. Its kinda been proven by all the replies here.

Saying that, at 50nl, I imagine people might not bet/fold here with my hand, its more likely they'll bet/ stubborn call. Anyway, just wanted some discussion on it.

[LightDrum]

This wasnt actually a hand I was involved in.

It was a hand from "Let there be range" on 3bet pots.

The authors advocate bluffing here will be very profitable as people will bet fold here with Ax a ton. Its kinda been proven by all the replies here.

Saying that, at 50nl, I imagine people might not bet/fold here with my hand, its more likely they'll bet/ stubborn call. Anyway, just wanted some discussion on it.

I could see a winning player at 50nl folding in this spot having had not much river information on villain quite often.

and B/f here at 50 nl is good anyway since I don't think the field think at this level in 3 bet pots.