50nl: flopped set

[TheImprover]

I have no reads on villian what so ever.
Are we allways going to ship here or what?

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($48.94)
Hero (SB) ($68.04)
BB ($47.48)
UTG ($55.25)
MP ($54.07)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9, 9
1 fold, MP bets $1.75, 1 fold, Hero raises $4.50, 1 fold, MP calls $3

Flop: ($10) 9, 7, A (2 players)
Hero bets $6.50, MP raises $16.50,

[sligoboi]

Without reads I really don't like the 3bet pre.

Post is a dream situation imo. Shove is a bit strong (lose value from weak aces, etc) but I definitely fist pump before deciding on my raise size.

[shano_88]

I dont like the 3bet or the 3bet size

As played, I ship it in. If hes bluffing hes unlikely to continue on the turn anyway.

[Flushdraw]

Just 1 question first. Are you asking about folding here, or just wanting to know the best way to get your money in? 3bet pre is fine btw

[Theresa]

Just 1 question first. Are you asking about folding here, or just wanting to know the best way to get your money in? 3bet pre is fine btw

3bet pre is beyond terrible.

Whatever you do now, get the stack in anywhichway.

With no reads its tough to know what to do to get it all in but you wont go wrong anyway you do it.

Personally I'd get it in now, he's not bluffing here ever really and his value range is never folding.

oh and Id 3bet more oop tbh(but the 3bet is very bad)

[TommyGunne]

Yeah I really really hate the 3bet, both in terms of hand selection and sizing.

I'd just ship now. He's not folding flushdraws imo.

[tipp86]

He will check a lot on the turn shipping over is without doubt the best.

I will probably flat a check raise if i have position in the hand.

[Strewelpeter]

Why all the hate for 3 betting 99 pre 5 handed?

[Sledgejammer]

Why all the hate for 3 betting 99 pre 5 handed?

Because every non 9 flop oop sucks for us and is very difficult to play, and we don't wanna get it in pre. What do we do here if 4 bet?

Pretty snap shove right now, folding is quite clearly not even to be considered and flatting oop isn't the best on that board if we don't know what he'll do on the turn.

[Flushdraw]

Because every non 9 flop oop sucks for us and is very difficult to play, and we don't wanna get it in pre. What do we do here if 4 bet?

Pretty snap shove right now, folding is quite clearly not even to be considered and flatting oop isn't the best on that board if we don't know what he'll do on the turn.

Can we not 3bet 99 pre for value against a range that probably includes 22-88 and overcards to our 99? I know we'd rather 3bet with 56s or Q2o pre but are we just calling in the blinds and c/folding all our small pairs that don't hit a set?

[BuChan]

Why all the hate for 3 betting 99 pre 5 handed?

sucks to get allin and sucks worse to 3bet fold such sexy number. ship it now.

[Theresa]

Why all the hate for 3 betting 99 pre 5 handed?

As jammer said.

MP opens. His range is probably:

910s+22+, Kj+Qj+A10+ A2s+.

Then we 3bet from the SB.

His range for calling is now something like:

Kq,1010+,AQ+... Maybe A10/Js+ but def AQs+

his range for 4betting would be something like:

Aqs+,AK, QQ+.

See?

edit: ive been generous with him 4betting AQs

[TommyGunne]

Why all the hate for 3 betting 99 pre 5 handed?

You're oop vs unknown MP at 50NL 100bb deep. Its not like we're going to be ever getting it in good pre, calling pre is good, and its not like you are ever going to be in any good spot postflop either. Maybe vs a very aggro btn fire away from the blinds or whatever, but vs MP not a big fan, especially when we've no reads.

These hands become much better 3bets the shorter you get.

[Theresa]

Oh and Ive assumed he is a solidish regular.

If hes a fish his opening and calling 3bet range probably widen and 4bet range contracts.

[TommyGunne]

Can we not 3bet 99 pre for value against a range that probably includes 22-88 and overcards to our 99? I know we'd rather 3bet with 56s or Q2o pre but are we just calling in the blinds and c/folding all our small pairs that don't hit a set?

Not when he only ever gets it in with 22-88 when he flops gold. So you're just left with a monstrously RIO situation.

I get your point with the Q2o, but the exaggeration just makes my spine shudder.

[Sledgejammer]

Can we not 3bet 99 pre for value against a range that probably includes 22-88 and overcards to our 99? I know we'd rather 3bet with 56s or Q2o pre but are we just calling in the blinds and c/folding all our small pairs that don't hit a set?

Yeah but even against a wide range it's very very difficult to play oop on any flop that doesn't come a 9, and since so very few flops improve us, we're in a very very tough spot very often without much of a way to extract any kind of value when we've the best of it, so the value of our hand vs their range isn't all that important if that makes sense, since we don't get to showdown and win all too often postflop if the pot gets in any way big. And it sucks if we get 4 bet.

I also agree I'd like to 3 bet more since we're oop, ~5.50 or 5.75 would be my default here. I'd also not be betting pure trash like Q2 when we're oop, my 3 betting hand selection is alot different oop then ip, ip there's spots where your cards don't really matter, I don't like to 3 bet hands that trashy oop.

As for post flop, I certainly don't c/f all non 9 flops if we flat from the blinds, but there's obviously a whole lot of 'it depends' after that.

[Fuzzy Logic]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/69/micro-stakes-pl-nl/25nl-middle-set-turn-go-broke-899871/

I'll just leave this here.

[TheImprover]

Just 1 question first. Are you asking about folding here, or just wanting to know the best way to get your money in? 3bet pre is fine btw

No, never folding

[Mellor]

Post is a dream situation imo. Shove is a bit strong (lose value from weak aces, etc) but I definitely fist pump before deciding on my raise size.

Raise size?
Any raise other than a shove is retarded.

We have $43
A PSB is $60
A min raise is $33

You're oop vs unknown MP at 50NL 100bb deep. Its not like we're going to be ever getting it in good pre, calling pre is good, and its not like you are ever going to be in any good spot postflop either. Maybe vs a very aggro btn fire away from the blinds or whatever, but vs MP not a big fan, especially when we've no reads.

These hands become much better 3bets the shorter you get.

If the convertor had of labeled him CO would you think it was less bad?

[sligoboi]

Raise size?
Any raise other than a shove is retarded.

We have $43
A PSB is $60
A min raise is $33

Man I suck..I got confused with another thread I read earlier where the OP is super super deep

[TheImprover]

I was shocked to read the first few reply's to see that ye tought 3betting here was really bad, we are 5 handed, i know there is no reads on villian but that is'nt to say that we cant put him on a range, Ax, 67s,89s, small pockets, the 3bet is really for value and i think a lot of the time we have the best hand here.

If the flop comes something like 10,6,3, or anything below my pair, my hand is going to be good most of the time, because when he flats, i think we have to put him on AJ,A10,JQ,KQ,KJ, and small to medium pairs or he could be on a rags, who knows. I think most of the time AK,10-AA is going to be 4betting, where then i think we have to give it up.

[BuChan]

you don't always have to fold when only one over card falls

[TheImprover]

you don't always have to fold when only one over card falls

Who ever said anything about folding if 1 over card comes?

[Theresa]

I was shocked to read the first few reply's to see that ye tought 3betting here was really bad, we are 5 handed, i know there is no reads on villian but that is'nt to say that we cant put him on a range, Ax, 67s,89s, small pockets, the 3bet is really for value and i think a lot of the time we have the best hand here.

If the flop comes something like 10,6,3, or anything below my pair, my hand is going to be good most of the time, because when he flats, i think we have to put him on AJ,A10,JQ,KQ,KJ, and small to medium pairs or he could be on a rags, who knows. I think most of the time AK,10-AA is going to be 4betting, where then i think we have to give it up.

Re read my reply about ranges. (Im not saying the ranges are spot on but they wont be too far off imo)

When your "raising for value", its not his opening range thats important. The important range is the one he continues with... Id say youve 60% equity at best against that range, less even.

He also has position.

Giving it up after he 4bets is playing the hand badly and unprofitably. Its pure spew. 3bet folding 99 from the SB against an UTG, MP or CO open is probably the worst way to play the hand.

[Fuzzy Logic]

I was shocked to read the first few reply's to see that ye tought 3betting here was really bad, we are 5 handed, i know there is no reads on villian but that is'nt to say that we cant put him on a range, Ax, 67s,89s, small pockets, the 3bet is really for value and i think a lot of the time we have the best hand here.

If the flop comes something like 10,6,3, or anything below my pair, my hand is going to be good most of the time, because when he flats, i think we have to put him on AJ,A10,JQ,KQ,KJ, and small to medium pairs or he could be on a rags, who knows. I think most of the time AK,10-AA is going to be 4betting, where then i think we have to give it up.

3betting from the SB at 50nl without reads is turning our hand into a bluff, pure and simple. If villain calls we are cbetting a ton of flops and can get raped or we can check fold. Calling and playing poker is the much preferred option imo.

[cardshark202]

Can't believe people are even talking about 3betting this preflop. It's really bad without reads, and generally bad against the majority of players. Just because he opens worse hands is not a good enough reason to 3 bet.

And see some other stuff there. most guys don't call 3bets oop with AT, AJ, KQ or QJ. And those hands are not exactly crushed vs 99, and without the initiative they are not going to be able to bluff their chips to you. Mad stuff. Insane thoughts.

[TommyGunne]

If the convertor had of labeled him CO would you think it was less bad?

All I play these days is 5max, and have taken to calling them MP in my head cos it breaks the table up better. But no, I wouldn't, it'd still be pretty bad imo. The only way its possibly good is if you have a very aggro 3/4/5b dynamic. Even then its absolute borderline stuff about it being better than calling.

[Mellor]

Wasn'treally a proper question,
was sure you were aware that it was 5 handed, UTG+1/MP/CO all being the same person etc,
Was just pointing this out, and tbh some people prob are swung my it in a HH

[tipp86]

On the 3 bet issue im currently in transition from been a 9% 3 bet player to this month been about 6% over 30k hands.

I read an article on the general poker thread about it and done some other research. I came to realise that i was 3 betting just for the sake of it i feel i was even 4 betting in some stupid spots.

I found myself in some spewy spots due to playing like this. In general i feel you can take advantage of these players the below is an example of a player who is spewy from past examples. There is tons of players like him at 50nl i was one not that long ago.


No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($93.44)
BB ($8.50)
UTG ($28.07)
MP ($50)
Hero (CO) ($66.03)
Button ($57.88)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A, A
2 folds, Hero bets $1.50, 1 fold, SB raises $4.75, 1 fold, Hero calls $3.50

Flop: ($10.50) 4, Q, A (2 players)
SB bets $7, Hero calls $7

Turn: ($24.50) 8 (2 players)
SB bets $18.50, Hero calls $18.50

River: ($61.50) 5 (2 players)
SB bets $62.94 (All-In), Hero calls $35.53 (All-In)

Total pot: $132.56


I will most likely post up my stats at the end of the month as i feel i now may have created other leaks. Calling 3 bets to much.... not 4 betting enough etc.....

[Moneymaker]

Yeah 3betting 99 there would be dreadful. That's the perfect hand to have in your calling range.

The fact we crush his opening range is totally irrelevant. His 3bet calling range is far more important and 99 OOP is going to lead to lots of ugly spots.

Unless there's some crazy dynamic going on where someone will 4bet light then i'd 3bet this hand 0% of the time.

Trivial shove on the flop, I doubt he's folding any A or draw. I'd be dancing as i'm shoving the dough in.