5/10 nl 200bb deep hand

[Semibluff]

This is a hand ive discussed with a player i respect alot and am interested in others opinions on it please.

We're 200bb deep and villain just covers in a 6 max game.

I open utg +1 with KKhd to 25. Villain calls on the button. BB also calls

Im new to the table. Have no stats on the players but recognize the villain as a reg in these games so give him a decent level of respect.

flop is : 7 5 3 with a spade flush draw. 80$ in the pot

checked to me. I bet 65$
Button raises to 180$

Whats my action here?

And if i call, whats my action on blank turn/ non blank turn

So instead of just a "call and re-evaluate" can people please give the scenarios and what they'd do and why

Thanks in advance

[sixtwo]

my guess his original button call can include hands like 77 55 33 Ax (ace of spades)

theres no way you can flat this raise on flop, but at the same time i cant see it being a flopped flush

get it in or get outta there

[Bubbleking]

iv no business replying to this thread since teh levels I play at you could get it in and watch some dope stack off with 88-JJ. anyway il give it a shot for the laugh

The villain can pretty much represent any card that hits in the deck on the turn and river with the only bingo card for you being the Kc and possibly any Q that isn't a spade. Your hand is going to be pretty much face up after the flop and your oop

Id call and continue on any K, Q that isnt a spade and any card that pairs the board.

due to the fact you said villain is decent I dont think folding is such a huge mistake. But I love to make the big folds so ignore me

[Line Us]

Why make it so small pre? always raising to 30 or 35, especially when we are deep with someone else at the table. Without history doing anything other than calling the raise on the flop isn't good this deep, someone aggro at this level is going to play back at this flop with at pretty large frequency and with a wide range from the button, folding KK would be way too nitty. I'd bascially turn KK into a bluffcatcher here, hope he'll fire a few barrells. I'd definitely call all turn blanks too and some spades that dont complete straights/gutters. Do we have the k of spades?

[Aya14]

Why make it so small pre? always raising to 30 or 35, especially when we are deep with someone else at the table. Without history doing anything other than calling the raise on the flop isn't good this deep, someone aggro at this level is going to play back at this flop with at pretty large frequency and with a wide range from the button, folding KK would be way too nitty. I'd bascially turn KK into a bluffcatcher here, hope he'll fire a few barrells. I'd definitely call all turn blanks too and some spades that dont complete straights/gutters. Do we have the k of spades?

We have K of hearts and diaminds.

I flat the 180 and hope BB folds.
I'm check raising any non spade turn and prob 4 or 6 as well. There's so many combo's we beat on a blank turn.
I don't mind Line us bluffcatcher idea either do, check calling all blanks.

[digiman]

We have K of hearts and diaminds.

I flat the 180 and hope BB folds.
I'm check raising any non spade turn and prob 4 or 6 as well. There's so many combo's we beat on a blank turn.
I don't mind Line us bluffcatcher idea either do, check calling all blanks.

How much are you going to CR to and what are you planning on doing if he calls it when the river comes?

[cardshark202]

Its a horrible spot really, and whilst folding seems weak, if you're not very sure in your decision making on later streets for example, you can fold here.
As it is, I would probably call. I can't tell you what I would do on the turn, it depends on the turn card and his sizing should he fire again.

[Moneymaker]

Never played this high so don't know how useful my advice would be.

KK is far too strong to fold right now imo, but if you're not comfortable facing the tough decisions that will follow on ANY card that isn't a King on the turn, I suppose you can let it go.

I would call though, and call down on any blank turn cards. A capable villain at these stakes would surely play back on this kind of board, that an UTG raiser shouldn't have connected with a huge amount of the time.

On a spade or 4, 6 or 8 card, it would depend on if the villain bets, and how much.

[RoadSweeper]

Ugh dirty.

I make it more PF, but if 25 is your standard the whole session then thats fine.

Villain can make your life hell here in this spot. A fold here seems very nitty but I dont think its awful if it stoips you making bigger mistakes later in the hand.

I dont know if we should we be betting the flop if we don't know what to do to a c/r. I assume the villain can c/r here at a decent frequency.

[paddyh1989]

The BB still behind so could BTN be raising hands like 78,88,99,TT maybe some combo draws.
If we raise do we fold to a shove.
Tough spot wit no reads on villian i guess.
If we do raise cant fold to shove and will he shove worse well maybe some draws he might fold 78,88,TT though.
Im really not sure if im honest.
How tigh is folding.
Calling seems to suck aswell were oop on turn but he might check dwn some hands we beat maybe.
Like to hear more opinions on it.

[digiman]

The problem is villans range here is crazy wide here given how small we opened and that he has position on us 200bb deep. Villan can easily have 75, 53, 46, 68, 33, 55, 77, Axss and other flush draw hands.

I really don't like CR on the turn when this deep, 100bb deep I would have no major problem with it but 200bb deep you can get to the river in a world of pain. I agree that folding wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to do as you are basically just guessing on turn and rivers, a good villan will just own you here every time really. He has all the power unless you have pretty specific reads on him

[ShipIt]

I was never a fan of opening 2.5x apart from the button but thats not the point in question and also Im pretty sure a decent reg will be calling the same range on the button 200 deep for $30 as $25.
Against a complete unknown who I think is a reg at these stakes Im folding, I just cant see how this can be profitable flatting the flop and preying he gives up, its just a horrible situation when deep oop and have zero history, that I think u just have to let him have it. Obv with reads and stats in this situation, there would be times when I would never be folding but an unkown, let him have it. Turning KK into a bluffcatcher call down all streets isnt easy, and just lets us get owned so much.

Nice hand tho.

[Line Us]

@ shipit, I'm happy enough that he will bluff enough for me to call him down profitablely on certain turns and rivers. I'm not praying or expecting him to slow down on many turns and rivers at all if I take this line. Its definitely not going to be easy to play turns and rivers but I think we're going to need more hands than sets and nut flush draws to call his raise with or we're just gonna end up getting exploited.

[Opr]

@ shipit, I'm happy enough that he will bluff enough for me to call him down profitablely on certain turns and rivers. I'm not praying or expecting him to slow down on many turns and rivers at all if I take this line. Its definitely not going to be easy to play turns and rivers but I think we're going to need more hands than sets and nut flush draws to call his raise with or we're just gonna end up getting exploited.

We are 200bb deep against a good player in a single raised pot OOP with one pair. Isn't it just the nature of things that we are gonna get exploited ?

Obviously folding the flop in isolation is -EV but I just think I will get owned so hard on future streets that I should fold.

Opr

[blaaaaaaah]

Got to agree your 25 pre is horrible it is in my view wher the trouble all began in this hand! The villians range is ridiciously high from small pairs which make sets to suited connectors that have straight made and also the huge draws flush draw straight draw!

I dont believe he has 1010 here as i've played 5-10 good lot before and it is always 3bet pre in 6-max games especially as your 25 is so weak/pot builder looking to a reg!! So maybe he has 88 or 99 but I only see 99 raising here on the flop.

So that leaves the villians range to be a set, pair and flushdraw/straightdraw, the big open end straight draw and flush draw, 99 or bluff as you prob show alot of Kx or Ax alot of the time and this would be a missed flop!

Knowing all this I believe folding is not bad but maybe a slight mistake as you do crush small part of his range and also you are ahead of his draw hands...for now!

I do not like repopping him back on the flop as this allows him to shove all in with set and the big draws which in turn puts huge pressure on your hand and its a must fold for me if so, you will either be drawing dead to a K or in a flip which you just might be the underdog in! Also the villain is a reg so he will know all this and easily exploit you!

So for me weighing up my options I'd go for the flat call, once you flat call he will give up with 99 n check it down as your hand is now showing alot of strenght where it looked weak enough.Once you flat call and you see the turn and it indeed is a blank go into bluff catching mode if he indeed does bet again as his big draw hands still has great semi-bluff vaule of making you fold! Off to the river and if its another blank like pairs the 3 or another random safe card then check to the villain, it looks like you could have a set here yourself and all his draw hands that have now missed will probably give up but if not watching his bet size on the river is crucial as now its either a bluff or he has got the set.. this is the point where if your able to make the right read then you deserve to be playing 5-10 because the pressure like this is always on and making those type of calls/folds and being right has alot to do with being a winning player at 5-10! You gotta go to the river more with better players because they are so so good at making ppl fold on turn cards!!!

Oh and if a danger card comes on the turn just get out of the way its just not worth it to continue in the hand that has made every draw as you beat practically nothing anymore!

[ianmc38]

It's call or fold given the info given. As a standard line I would be calling and calling turn and river (most of the time). That said I actually think folding is fine too. It's such a crap spot where he can just pwn u inposition. Once he doesn't know you're folding KK here i think it's fine.

[Line Us]

We are 200bb deep against a good player in a single raised pot OOP with one pair. Isn't it just the nature of things that we are gonna get exploited ?

Obviously folding the flop in isolation is -EV but I just think I will get owned so hard on future streets that I should fold.

Opr

Ya its definitely a good point and without history its fine obviously but I've no problem having a range of hands that I bet call this flop say and fold to some turn barrells then and a range that I call the turn also and fold to some river barrells and obviously along with those I'll have my hands that I'm calling 3 streets or the monsters/semi-bluff hands that I'll be possibly checkraising the turn/river with occasionally. I'd take the same line with sets/asxs/KK+ probably on the flop and go from there. I'd just rather have some bluff catchers that aren't nut hands for later streets as I'd be hoping to get a checkraise in with the nuts later or if push came to shove have the option of turning something like Asxs into a bluff. I dont really mind the fold though but i think a 5/10 reg is going to be raising and barrelling pretty wide and i'd like to have a wider range than sets and flushdraws to continue on this flop.

[Aya14]

How much are you going to CR to and what are you planning on doing if he calls it when the river comes?

I'm making it 3X what he bets, if he bets turn.
I am check calling the river.providedhe calls.
Should he check behind on turn I'm check calling the river.

The more I think about it the more I like this line.
Imo because we raised so small pre he has enough pairs 99,1010 etc and spade draws along with one pair and straight draw type hands(5,6 6,7 7,8) to make this profitable.

[digiman]

I'm making it 3X what he bets, if he bets turn.
I am check calling the river.providedhe calls.
Should he check behind on turn I'm check calling the river.

The more I think about it the more I like this line.
Imo because we raised so small pre he has enough pairs 99,1010 etc and spade draws along with one pair and straight draw type hands(5,6 6,7 7,8) to make this profitable.

I hate it tbh, 200bb you are basically turning KK into a bluff here. (Fine line if you are 100bb deep) I doubt he ever flats a draw here, all he flats is a better hand so when river comes and he bets well your 99% beat.

[Semibluff]

thanks for the replies so far. The dilema on what we do on the turn and river is what really got a few of us talking to.

How many turn cards are really blanks? and check raising turn 200bb deep we are never really getting it in good. 100bb deep is a different story

Try addressing the Q that I raised to 30 pre, instead of 25 - if that makes alot of difference to peoples later decisions (im not sure it really does as 200bb deep his calling range to 25 isnt far off his calling range of a 30 bet considering he's in position)

How often does he bluff three streets here witout missing?

Also, for those who call his turn bet, if he leaves himself with a pot size shove on river are we also calling this?

Atleast one thing we all agree on its an ugly spot

[BallymoreChris]

Does this hand play any different if the flop is Qxx or Jxx

[MrPillowTalk]

Check raising the turn is border line retarded imo I dont see how anyone can think thats anything but a good way to go broke.

This spot would be very player dependent for me, against a good aggro reg I think you should be stationing it up, but id like our image to be one that we open a bunch and cbet a pretty high % of the time. I dont think there is anything wrong with folding but I probably never would. Pretty muck spot.

[Semibluff]

Check raising the turn is border line retarded imo I dont see how anyone can think thats anything but a good way to go broke.

This spot would be very player dependent for me, against a good aggro reg I think you should be stationing it up, but id like our image to be one that we open a bunch and cbet a pretty high % of the time. I dont think there is anything wrong with folding but I probably never would. Pretty muck spot.

feels so so wrong! Same sentiment here really

[AndyFatBastard]

Sick spot. Reraising feels bad because all it does is remove total air from his range. Shoving is awful because he only calls with a set or a flopped straight. Calling feels wrong because we'll be fucked on a spade, 4, 6 or A turn. But i guess it's the most natural option.

I think it's safe to rule out 99-JJ here. Raising with those is mentalism, and we're assuming competency in our opponent.

Anyone fancy a cheeky minraise to his flop raise? Like if we make it something like $370 leaving $1500+ behind. We're basically turning the tables on him and putting him in the same spot we're in, but without committing ourselves. His low flush draws have got to worry about better ones. Even his low sets have got to worry about better sets, because the move looks so strong. Pretty much the only hands he can comfortably shove here is the flopped straight and 77, as I reckon every draw is peeling a turn. Obv we're folding to a shove, which is what makes this bad.

When he does that we can lead out on nearly every turn card, effectively turning our hand into a bluff. Thoughts?

[TommyGunne]

I think I have to call down here. If we don't, then our call down range is only sets, which won't even have a full weighting, or we'll just be folding the flop far too much. We're just gonna have to pucker up, accept that there are very few blanks, and call down most turns and rivers. I guess I'd fold straightening spades anyway, but I think even a mediocre reg at this level would understand how easy it is to exploit on this type of board, and so you are forced to call down with what is so close to the top of your range.

And to Chris, I don't think it plays differently, but we have a much higher EV for your plan for the hand.

[jack90210]

I can't stop thinking about this hand.

What would oldjude do here? Somebody switch the oldjude bat light and he may come and answer!

[Semibluff]

I was chatting about this hand with Van Dice in America. He said he thinks folding the flop is the correct decision as your just in a world of pain. He then went on to explain it a little more why.

I went upstairs to have a shower and couldnt stop thinking "wait a minute, im folding KK on a 7 high board? WTF" lol

So 30 mins later, i went back down and argued with him again until i again agreed folding was probably the best option.

Interesting hand - thanks all for replying and feel free to continue the debate

[Bubbleking]

ship ship im on the same level as rockstar pokah players

time to sit tight and let the cash flow in

[ianmc38]

Well i'm not so convinced it's the correct decision as it means your flop continuing range is sets or draws and nothing else.

In isolation the fold is fine, but i'd definitely be looking at alternative ways to play the hand.

[BallymoreChris]

I agree with above.

The saying "you only win a small pot with AA" comes to mind. I'm not folding KK here very often if at all. At the very least I'm calling the first raise and reevaluate on the turn.

Also was thinking about the "I'd fold but not tell anybody" attitude, its just as likely you could exploit this image that you would gain by showing as it is to be exploited.

[TheJoker]

As a follow on... what is a good spot to 3bet/fold the flop?

[Bubbleking]

As a follow on... what is a good spot to 3bet/fold the flop?

there is none.

unless you have some sort of history going on and you do it with a bag of spanners

[BobSloane]

I would check flop a lot 200bbs deep but i suppose thats neither here nor there now.
As played I think I puke fold. As Hectorjelly has said before when you fold TPTK or even a big overpair in this type of situation villain doesn't know what you folded. Even though you have a an overpair villain has too much in the hand in his favour. You could already be dead and you're hoping to check call down after dodging half the deck by the river. Plus you can still get bluffed when scare cards hit like if he has 8h9h and reps spades or whatever. Seems like a suckass plan overall




edit : oh thought this was recent hand , @ the joker 3b/folding the flop generally sucks because you are increasing size of the pot and decreasing the size of your stack which is giving you better odds to not fold. so you would only want to do it as bubbelking says with a bag of spanners or maybe 78 on 59K where you cant call a raise but think you have a lot of fold equity because maybe villain is raising a lot of cbets or whatever and you can easily throw your hand away if shoved on - you dont want to 3b/fold with big overpairs. The good spots(if they exist?) are probably more player and gameflow dependent anyway