2 x 50nl hands v same opponent

[Flushdraw]

Are these 2 hands pretty standard. Should i be happy to 4bet/stack off with them. I haven't played NLHE cash in a long time so on top of being crap, i'm rusty too!

The session is only 60 hands old and i'm playing 27/22 with a steal % of 60 and he's playing 33/26 with a % of 75 and 3bet% of 20 fwiw

I 4bet to $16 btw.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

UTG ($51.75)
Hero (MP) ($53.48)
Button ($56.80)
SB ($25.07)
BB ($68.40)

Preflop: Hero is MP with J, J
1 fold, Hero bets $1.50, Button raises $5, 2 folds, Hero raises $14.50, Button calls $11

Flop: ($32.75) 7, 7, 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $17, Button raises $40.80 (All-In), Hero calls $20.48 (All-In)

Turn: ($107.71) 3 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($107.71) 6 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $107.71

2nd hand happened about 2 orbits later, stats were similar

I 4bet to $20 btw.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

MP ($50.50)
Hero (CO) ($51.18)
Button ($105.28)
SB ($68.84)
BB ($27.77)
UTG ($66.90)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 10, 10
2 folds, Hero bets $1.50, Button raises $6, 2 folds, Hero raises $18.50, Button raises $99.28 (All-In), Hero calls $31.18 (All-In)

Flop: ($103.11) 10, 9, 7 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($103.11) 5 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($103.11) 5 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $103.11

[Bubbleking]

Hand 1 - his range is highly polarized towards QQ+ and you played yourself into getting felted I think. I don't like 4 betting JJ.

Hand 2 - I think you were flipping 25% of the time and crushed 75% of the time. Nice hand though.

[Flushdraw]

Hand 1 - his range is highly polarized towards QQ+ and you played yourself into getting felted I think. I don't like 4 betting JJ.

If i call the 3bet, 772 is a pretty juicy flop for me. I think either way i struggle to make the right decisions. Are we always folding overpairs to so much heat? So should be play AK/AQ the same way if we are the villain?

[Theresa]

I prob wouldnt cbet in hand 1. Dont see the point of it. I'd prefer to check and let him bluff at it sometimes, he's never calling/raising a worse hand here imo so betting is a bit pointless.

I'm also not sure about 4betting JJ at 50NL. I know its the button that 3bet you but still...calling is a bit better than 4betting but your oop so meh. As nitty as it sounds I might just fold pre and wait til I have more solid reads on his 3betting tendencies, it'll be so hard to play this hand oop profitably.

He has AA nearly always here. And if he doesnt make sure to note it.

Again I defo wouldnt 4bet TT. There is no real way your getting it in profitably. Prob just fold pre again. Nittish maybe but by far the most profitable way to play the hand imo. Peoples 3betting ranges (even there light ones) are much tighter than you think.

[Moneymaker]

I think 4betting both pre is WAY too thin. I'd be calling both 3bets though. Folding JJ and TT to a 3bet is just too weak imo, even if we are OOP.

[Bubbleking]

The stakes we're playing are important when considering when to 4 bet but not as important as how deep the stacks are. Personally i wouldn't be 4 betting JJ OOP when we are only 100BB's deep.

I think I would call the 3-bet. call his c-bet and fold to an unimproved turn facing more heat.

The villain probably folds AQ to the 4 bet and doesnt shouldnt ship the flop with AK since your hand is pretty much face up as QQ+

[Theresa]

I think 4betting both pre is WAY too thin. I'd be calling both 3bets though. Folding JJ and TT to a 3bet is just too weak imo, even if we are OOP.

Really? I disagree, Firstly I think calling 3bets (w/100bb) oop is terrible and its probably even more costly considering our hands equity against the 3bettors range. Then there is no real good flops barring 10 J high ones. Basically any decent opponent can read our hand for what it is and play perfectly.

[Bubbleking]

Really? I disagree, Firstly I think calling 3bets (w/100bb) oop is terrible and its probably even more costly considering our hands equity against the 3bettors range. Then there is no real good flops barring 10 J high ones. Basically any decent opponent can read our hand for what it is and play perfectly.

but it would be worse to 4 bet and then check fold the flop?

[BobSloane]

Against a 33/26 with a high 3b% co v button i dont think you're doing much wrong 4b getting these in pre. I would 4b a bit smaller though maybe 2.5x. You still have 36% v QQ+,AK and oop postflop you will get owned hard a lot if villain is any good. he will have initiative and position

As an aside there are better 50NL spots you can pick than sitting to the right of this guy

[Flushdraw]

I forgot why i stopped playing holdem cash. I find it really really to give people credit for a hand unless i have lots of hands on them. I think i overplay big pairs stack off too much with them which is obviously a leak.

What about this one below? Is my line ok? If i miss the flop, do i fire again against a relatively loose player and an unknown shorty?

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

Button ($55.18)
Hero (SB) ($113.27)
BB ($77.17)
UTG ($50.75)
MP ($113.37)
CO ($23.60)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A, K
UTG bets $1.75, 1 fold, CO calls $1.75, 1 fold, Hero raises $7.75, 1 fold, UTG calls $6.25, CO calls $6.25

Flop: ($24.50) K, Q, 2 (3 players)
Hero bets $16.50, 1 fold, CO calls $15.60 (All-In)

Turn: ($55.70) 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($55.70) 3 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $55.70

[Theresa]

but it would be worse to 4 bet and then check fold the flop?

I dislike 4 betting immensely. Admittedly in hand one, there aint much he can do. Just get it in.

But the problems start preflop. Its different if the opponent is major aggro and 3bets for fun. But we dont have enough hands or solid reads to make that distinction.

[Bubbleking]

I forgot why i stopped playing holdem cash. I find it really really to give people credit for a hand unless i have lots of hands on them. I think i overplay big pairs stack off too much with them which is obviously a leak.

What about this one below? Is my line ok? If i miss the flop, do i fire again against a relatively loose player and an unknown shorty?

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

Button ($55.18)
Hero (SB) ($113.27)
BB ($77.17)
UTG ($50.75)
MP ($113.37)
CO ($23.60)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A, K
UTG bets $1.75, 1 fold, CO calls $1.75, 1 fold, Hero raises $7.75, 1 fold, UTG calls $6.25, CO calls $6.25

Flop: ($24.50) K, Q, 2 (3 players)
Hero bets $16.50, 1 fold, CO calls $15.60 (All-In)

Turn: ($55.70) 4 (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($55.70) 3 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $55.70

super standard

[Theresa]

Against a 33/26 with a high 3b% co v button i dont think you're doing much wrong 4b getting these in pre. I would 4b a bit smaller though maybe 2.5x. You still have 36% v QQ+,AK and oop postflop you will get owned hard a lot if villain is good.

As an aside there are better 50NL spots you can pick than sitting to the right of this guy

60n hands isnt enough to make these conclusions imo. Not nearly enough.

[Flushdraw]

As an aside there are better 50NL spots you can pick than sitting to the right of this guy

Hmmm good point.

Just finishing up now anyway because the weresolf thread is tilting me and its affecting my poker lol

It's only a small hand sample but he's 31/26/44 steal/13.3 3bet after 130 hands but has not 3bet/mixed it up with me since the above hands despite doing it /43 times in the session

[Moneymaker]

Really? I disagree, Firstly I think calling 3bets (w/100bb) oop is terrible and its probably even more costly considering our hands equity against the 3bettors range. Then there is no real good flops barring 10 J high ones. Basically any decent opponent can read our hand for what it is and play perfectly.

You don't get many of those at 50NL.

What hands do you call 3bets with as a matter of interest?

[BobSloane]

60n hands isnt enough to make these conclusions imo. Not nearly enough.

Its true and sometimes he will have just caught a few big hands in a small sample. But its still more likely that he is 3betting light - especially given the co v button dynamic. we establish some history and make him a little more scared to 3b us light when he folds or gets it in and sees we will 4b stack off with TT. It might be -ev to 4b get this in in vacuum but could be +ev for overall plan v this guy. Best plan is probably to find a better table/position though as c/o should be a very profitable position on table and looks like he plans to ruin that for us

[Theresa]

You don't get many of those at 50NL.

What hands do you call 3bets with as a matter of interest?

oop none. Or at least very few. Against a decent player virtually none, if he is a aggo reg maybe KK/AA with a view to never folding but the dynamics would have to be such that he is capable of 3betting light.

[TommyGunne]

I don't get all the hate for your lines. I get the hate for your betsizing though.

Hand 1: 4b/get it in is obv really standard here. Nothing more to say about the line. However 4betting to 16 is pretty awful. I'd just make it 13. On the flop, your betsizing is pretty awful. All of betting $5, shoving, and checking are better. I'd probably just go ahead and bet $5 and obv call a shove.

Hand 2: Again your betsizing is poor. 4b/get it in is again obv fine, but making it $20 is most definitely not fine. Nobody is ever going to 5b light if you continue to 4b that big, and vs a monkey like the one you say there is a very large possibility of that. I'd be making it $15. Thats a bit bigger than normal for me, but he has shown a propensity to call 4bs, and its still just about in a range where he thinks he might have FE. Any bigger and he doesn't.

Hand 3: I guess its fine.

[RedJoker]

I don't get all the hate for your lines. I get the hate for your betsizing though.

Hand 1: 4b/get it in is obv really standard here. Nothing more to say about the line. However 4betting to 16 is pretty awful. I'd just make it 13. On the flop, your betsizing is pretty awful. All of betting $5, shoving, and checking are better. I'd probably just go ahead and bet $5 and obv call a shove.

Hand 2: Again your betsizing is poor. 4b/get it in is again obv fine, but making it $20 is most definitely not fine. Nobody is ever going to 5b light if you continue to 4b that big, and vs a monkey like the one you say there is a very large possibility of that. I'd be making it $15. Thats a bit bigger than normal for me, but he has shown a propensity to call 4bs, and its still just about in a range where he thinks he might have FE. Any bigger and he doesn't.

Hand 3: I guess its fine.

Agree with this. 4bet sizes are really bad.

Hand 1 - his range is highly polarized towards QQ+ and you played yourself into getting felted I think. I don't like 4 betting JJ.

What do you mean be polarized towards QQ+? Do you mean it's polarized with a heavier weighting of QQ+ or do you mean his range is mostly made up of QQ+?



Calling 3bets OOP is fine, there's a range of hands which are too weak to 4bet/call and too strong to fold so should clearly be called. If we didn't want to 4bet and get it in here then we should definitely be calling.

[Maloney]

I don't get all the hate for your lines. I get the hate for your betsizing though.

Hand 1: 4b/get it in is obv really standard here. Nothing more to say about the line. However 4betting to 16 is pretty awful. I'd just make it 13. On the flop, your betsizing is pretty awful. All of betting $5, shoving, and checking are better. I'd probably just go ahead and bet $5 and obv call a shove.

Hand 2: Again your betsizing is poor. 4b/get it in is again obv fine, but making it $20 is most definitely not fine. Nobody is ever going to 5b light if you continue to 4b that big, and vs a monkey like the one you say there is a very large possibility of that. I'd be making it $15. Thats a bit bigger than normal for me, but he has shown a propensity to call 4bs, and its still just about in a range where he thinks he might have FE. Any bigger and he doesn't.

Hand 3: I guess its fine.

On this point TG what would your ''standard'' 3bet and 4bet size be like in 50nl?

[TommyGunne]

On this point TG what would your ''standard'' 3bet and 4bet size be like in 50nl?

It depends really. Your 3b sizes can vary and should vary a lot more than your 4b sizes.

The main point with 4b sizing is that going over like 30bb is suicide. It just means that you only need 35% to call then, so villain can't 5b light when you are gonna be calling it off with small pairs if for some mental reason, or even when you are pretty much committed with 67s or something. I'd usually try and keep it within the range of 23-28bb, where I'd be betting more oop, more against guys who have any tendency to call 4bets. The betting more oop doesn't really matter against a guy that never calls 4bs though. Apart from that I'd try not to vary the sizing against good players, unless you feel like you can level them somewhat by moving your betsizing within that range. Thats not often the smartest of ideas though. Basically it depends if and how often villain calls 4bets, and how often villain 5bets. Obv it depends on how big stacks are, but thats just obvious. You can just translate it into % of stacks.

For example, if you Flushdraw had 4b bluffed with 75s or 22 (for some crazy reason cos small pairs are among the worst possible hands to 4b) then he would be forced to call it off when villain shoves. Are you going to 5b bluff a guy who calls 5bets with his entire 4b range? I doubt it somehow. It also costs you so much money.

With 3betting its the same sort of logic. OOP matters much more, cos people call 3bets much much more often than they do 4bets, so you'll be left stuck oop with deeper SPR than in 4b pots. So you definitely need to 3b more oop. You also need to be obviously looking at how often villain calls 3bets, how often they 4b, how often they fold to the 3b, and what sort of range villain has. Readless, I'd go a little less than pot IP, and a little more than pot oop. You can vary that up a little though, especially if villain is dumb.

[BuChan]

I don't get all the hate for your lines. I get the hate for your betsizing though.

Hand 1: 4b/get it in is obv really standard here. Nothing more to say about the line. However 4betting to 16 is pretty awful. I'd just make it 13. On the flop, your betsizing is pretty awful. All of betting $5, shoving, and checking are better. I'd probably just go ahead and bet $5 and obv call a shove.

Hand 2: Again your betsizing is poor. 4b/get it in is again obv fine, but making it $20 is most definitely not fine. Nobody is ever going to 5b light if you continue to 4b that big, and vs a monkey like the one you say there is a very large possibility of that. I'd be making it $15. Thats a bit bigger than normal for me, but he has shown a propensity to call 4bs, and its still just about in a range where he thinks he might have FE. Any bigger and he doesn't.

Hand 3: I guess its fine.

agreed 4bets are way too big but obv fine to 4 bet this guy. the 5 bet on the flop is a weird line though. is it really that easy to induce a bluff? i think that's more transparent than checking. i've never tried betting such a small % of the pot before, what kind of spots would you be doing that in?

[Sledgejammer]

Yeah I'd make it like 12.5 and call in the JJ hand, and if I'm betting the flop bet something really stupid and then call obviously or just shove. Don't like half pot because it commits us and he's never bluffing while a shove can look weaker and a gay bet can induce him to anger shove his whole range. I hate calling 3 bets OOP with pretty much anything fwiw.

Basically what TG said about 4 bet sizes in general

[Sledgejammer]

agreed 4bets are way too big but obv fine to 4 bet this guy. the 5 bet on the flop is a weird line though. is it really that easy to induce a bluff? i think that's more transparent than checking. i've never tried betting such a small % of the pot before, what kind of spots would you be doing that in?

I'd do it in 4 bet pots, which rarely if ever come up, because of the weird stack/pot ratio they create on the flop. They're insanely cheap bluffs and can induce depending on the opponents especially on a board like that.

[Flushdraw]

Thanks for all the responses lads. Obviously need to work on my bet sizes but i actually thought they were somewhat in line to what i see posted up here a lot. I've also read other responses saying that other peoples 3/4bet sizes are far too small so i need to find that happy medium. Very helpful though

FWIW, villains had AA, AK and Q10 in the 3hands respectively

[tipp86]

Have not read any of the replys yet in case it changes what i would say. Im playing 50nl at the moment so im seeing these spots a lot.

Hand 1

I think in this hand the buttons 3 bet will very often be a steal. With JJ here i allways call and evaluate the flop. I will 4 bet his 3 bet a lot but it wont be with the likes of JJ i will really only do it with QQ_- AA + AK or else 4 bet bluffs.

In this hand im pretty certain he has AA KK QQ when he calls your 4bet.

If you played the hand with a call to his 3 bet i probably flat flop to his c bet and get it in on turn if he bets turn with the board that came.


Hand 2

Dont have much to say about this hand really only dont ever get it in with 1010 unless you have tons of history or a serious fish on your hands.

I may not even call this 3 bet i think as its a big 3 bet and i dont think im going to war on a 9 high flop either especially given the previous hand.

Maybe its weak but i just lay it down.