i'm calling all day he shows up with draws, AK, and worse two pairs enough to call imo
Announcement
Collapse
No announcement yet.
General Poker Thread
Collapse
This is a sticky topic.
X
X
-
You played it fine, insta call now; you've given him enough rope so that his range contains a lot of hands you beat. The advantage to flat calling the flop is that you hugely underrepresent your hand. There's no way you can fold. You will definitely be beaten a certain percentage of the time, since the board is so scary sets are going to push.
I think live a call is better than a fold pre. If your folding K9o here your calling range is going to be very small. 3betting is fine obv, but depends on gameflow etc IMO.
On the flop a check raise is pretty standard, however it shows a lot of strength and your hand is almost at the bottom of a checkraising value range. I think a lot of players will fold a weak king to a check raise. Against someone who will auto stack off with k2 then a cr is better. I quite like flat calling to induce a bluff/value shove with worse. Against a good player flat calling is dangerous since you don't know how to react to a dangerous turn cards, but most players will play pretty straightforwardly if draws hit (ie they will bet one street and no more without a big hand).
That all said the fact you posted the hand means you should fold since you lost.
Comment
-
this is a simple case of COMBINATORICS
just work out how many combos ye loose to and how many ye beat
like on that board your loosing to 14 combos
combos of hands we lose to (99 kk QQ 66 KQ)
how many combos of each =99=1 KK=1 QQ=3 66=3 KQ=6 total =14 combos we loose to
now how many we beat ill let you do his range for this as i do not no anything about villian
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hectorjelly View PostOn the flop a check raise is pretty standard, however it shows a lot of strength and your hand is almost at the bottom of a checkraising value range. I think a lot of players will fold a weak king to a check raise. Against someone who will auto stack off with k2 then a cr is better. I quite like flat calling to induce a bluff/value shove with worse. Against a good player flat calling is dangerous since you don't know how to react to a dangerous turn cards, but most players will play pretty straightforwardly if draws hit (ie they will bet one street and no more without a big hand).
Also important here in the grand scheme, (less so in a vacuum vs an average live player), our overall c/r range on this flop is realistically quite thin, but our semi-bluffs combos (FD's, pair+draw) need to be balanced to some degree, so on top of KQ,JT it's pretty important we incl at least K9 here, Q9 too."c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"
Comment
-
Originally posted by Winning! View PostEven discounting the fact he bet 5500 into ~8k, this is still an auto c/r flop.. It's really unlikely our hand is going to get better and plenty of turns either kill our action vs the range of worse hands he would have stacked off with (AA,AK,KJ,KT,Q9,AcXc,etc) or leave us hating our life when double barreled. Also villain probably doesn't pay more than one street with Qx or worse so we don't miss all that much value by c/raising, and the likelihood is he will only continue bluffing on textures which are bad for our hand. His massive over-shove on a blank turn is probably the best result we could have asked for when flatting flop to disguise. If he bet again and we c/shove it looks much stronger than flop c/r, and we probably value cut ourselves somewhat, while on the other hand calling and praying for brick rivers on which we hope he will shove with worse doesn't feel too great either.
Also important here in the grand scheme, (less so in a vacuum vs an average live player), our overall c/r range on this flop is realistically quite thin, but our semi-bluffs combos (FD's, pair+draw) need to be balanced to some degree, so on top of KQ,JT it's pretty important we incl at least K9 here, Q9 too.
I think from experience many players double barrel too much, so calling exploits that.
A lot of this argument is based on presumptions on what our opponent is going to do, so it might be very hard to agree.
Comment
-
Just realised I haven't posted here in ages. I'm trying to pay the bills with poker while looking for a proper job in Vancouver at the moment. Absolutely smashed the live cash in the Edgewater Casino last night for $800+. Felt pretty good, frankly. That's the month's rent paid, time to earn some food money."I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson
Comment
-
Cheers for all the input lads. Didn't snap the turn shove because it just seemed so odd to me but called then as felt was ahead a lot of the time in this spot. He had top two anyway which I was kind of surprised at.
I don't think I'd be comfortable 3 betting K9 out of position pre in this game vs most of the opponents there
Comment
-
Originally posted by ghostface View PostIn the Fitz, particularly the table I was on that night I think 3bets must have been called at least 80% of the time. K9 out of position in a bloated pot would seem a difficult hand to play to me
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hectorjelly View PostI was there! (At the Fitz, don't think I was at the table) I don't agree that you are getting called 80% of the time, but even if you are, a cbet is going to be hugely profitable on almost any board. In this hand it wouldn't have changed much obviously.
you and Jbravado look a bit a like cos thought it was him for a min. If it was youLast edited by ghostface; 18-07-13, 11:09.
Comment
-
Originally posted by ghostface View PostI only remember you with an eyepatch Now I think of it were you at the 1st table as you come up the stairs, talking to Sickpuppy at some stage?
you and Jbravado look a bit a like cos thought it was him for a min. If it was you
fwiw I really dislike three betting here I think- rarely if ever gets through, even a small c bet will see a decent chunk of your tank in there and then potentially are going to be making a bigger mistake folding at this stage if you flop a hand with okay equity.
I much prefer just folding this pre, in the Fitz just keep it simple and stay in position. No need to defend with this hand, a hand I dont think plays particularly well full stop, but especially with these stacks.
Comment
-
Originally posted by eamonhonda View Postqq
I'm in the big blind and theres a 2.5x raise utg and 1 caller
folded around to me
what range should I be flatting with?
Say with 50bb we could call with 56 suited whereas with 20bb it's much better to just dump it.Last edited by peterswellman; 19-07-13, 21:32.
Comment
-
Originally posted by peterswellman View PostHow many BB's you got? The deeper you are the wider you can call here.
Says with 50bb we could call with 56 suited whereas with 20bb it's much better to just dump it.airport, lol
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hectorjelly View PostOn the last point, I don't think balancing your range is that important here, but in any case there are quite a few value hands we could have, as you say KQ, JT; but also KK (the odd time) QQ (a bit more likely) 99 (very often). My main problem is that k9 is actually at the bottom of the value raising range, and so is going to not be very profitable. I don't know if a random ok player stacks off with AK if we check raise here.
I think from experience many players double barrel too much, so calling exploits that.
A lot of this argument is based on presumptions on what our opponent is going to do, so it might be very hard to agree.
If we go c/c it just allows villain realise too much equity, or play correctly against us with worse value hands when half the deck kills action. Using a hand as vulnerable as this to pick off multi-street airballs or hope villain value-cuts himself with worse on the purest of runouts just seems inferior to c/r flop repping a wide range"c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"
Comment
-
Guest
If we go c/c it just allows villain realise too much equity,
Comment
-
What way do most play this out?
Only paying 25 mins but already looking to isolate MP1 in a pot as have seen him 3xing with garbage & blowing stack 1 in a €100 re-entry.
BB is Luckymo from here (good online winner)
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 100 Tournament, 25/50 Blinds (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com
CO (t2,227)
Button (t2,685)
SB (t2,458)
BB (t7,330)
UTG (t2,920)
UTG+1 (t3,100)
MP1 (t2,935)
Hero (MP2) (t3,110)
Hero's M: 41.47
Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q, 9
2 folds, MP1 raises to t120, Hero calls t120, 3 folds, BB calls t70
Flop: (t385) Q, 7, 9 (3 players)
BB bets t200, 1 fold, Hero raises to t500, BB calls t300
Turn: (t1,385) 3 (2 players)
BB bets t550, [color=#CC3333]Hero?
Comment
-
Guest
If you're looking to iso then do it! Much prefer it to calling particularly as there's a large chance that you'll be facing a raise and be OOP to a decent player given the buyin level.
As played I much prefer calling the flop. I don't think too many players have a bluffing range in this spot so a decent villain is going to hear alarm bells when you raise here and it will be difficult to get value from worse.
Turn lead is a bit strange but I definitely call and re-evaluate. Not delighted though.
Comment
-
Originally posted by zuutroy View PostIf you're looking to iso then do it! Much prefer it to calling particularly as there's a large chance that you'll be facing a raise and be OOP to a decent player given the buyin level.
As played I much prefer calling the flop. I don't think too many players have a bluffing range in this spot so a decent villain is going to hear alarm bells when you raise here and it will be difficult to get value from worse.
Turn lead is a bit strange but I definitely call and re-evaluate. Not delighted though.
Comment
-
hand that came up in galway festival . happened 3 hands into tournament.-
Starting stack 8k , villian seems like a very basic player with very little experience
hero-UTG +2
Villian-BB
Blinds 25 / 50
I look down at 22
I raise to 150 and folded to Villian who makes 400 and i flat
Flop-2 k 7 ( bingo !!! )
So he leads into me for 550 and i make it 1200 and he flats
Turn Q
And he leads again for 1800 ( im scared now )
i flat am hoping to get to showdown now as im a bit scared of his lead on turn
River-4
he bets 2500
any thoughts on what i should be doing here.PB
Comment
-
Originally posted by PEACEBROTHER View Posthand that came up in galway festival . happened 3 hands into tournament.-
Starting stack 8k , villian seems like a very basic player with very little experience
hero-UTG +2
Villian-BB
Blinds 25 / 50
I look down at 22
I raise to 150 and folded to Villian who makes 400 and i flat
Flop-2 k 7 ( bingo !!! )
So he leads into me for 550 and i make it 1200 and he flats
Turn Q
And he leads again for 1800 ( im scared now )
i flat am hoping to get to showdown now as im a bit scared of his lead on turn
River-4
he bets 2500
any thoughts on what i should be doing here.Go big or go homeless.
Comment
-
Originally posted by mdoug View Postshove and get shown kq, if he has kk then he deserves all the chips sure
I ended up just caling and was shown Q Q ,
wasnt shocked at all tbh . i was more shocked to see Q Q was kinda expecting K K
I was left with around 2k and ended up winning the tourney so was all goodPB
Comment
-
Originally posted by PEACEBROTHER View PostThats what i was thinking was the correct play . cause set over set is to rare to fold
I ended up just caling and was shown Q Q ,
wasnt shocked at all tbh . i was more shocked to see Q Q was kinda expecting K K
I was left with around 2k and ended up winning the tourney so was all good
Comment
-
Guest
Depends what you think his 3b will be pre ante. His sizing looks decent so I'm assuming hes ok. Pre ante most players aren't going to be stepping out of line too often. Maybe c/c c/c b/puke when he raises???
Comment
-
Originally posted by mushypeas12 View PostYou totally overplayed your set imo. the poorer less experienced players tend to do this alot. If you think your beaten go with your instinct and muck your hand. It was an obvious fold on the river.
How was the set overplayed?
How/Why was it such an obvious river fold?
Comment
-
Originally posted by mushypeas12 View PostYou totally overplayed your set imo. the poorer less experienced players tend to do this alot. If you think your beaten go with your instinct and muck your hand. It was an obvious fold on the river.
IMO I underplayed it by not shoving the turn when he led into me , Ranges I put him on when he called the flop were - AA , KK , AK AQ , KQs , TBH it probably was a fold but its awful hard to fold a set when only hands beating me are set over set ,PB
Comment
-
Originally posted by mushypeas12 View PostYou totally overplayed your set imo. the poorer less experienced players tend to do this alot. If you think your beaten go with your instinct and muck your hand. It was an obvious fold on the river.
His line looks a lot like KK+, AK. Expect QQ rarely enough after flop call, 77/ KQ almost never given 3b pre. Guess he's only got like 1k back on the river so trivial jam, might have called flop but raising is fine vs a likely nutted 3 betting range."c'est en faisant n'importe quoi qu'on devient n'importe qui"
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hectorjelly View PostLive turbo (20 min blinds). Cutoff shoves for about 5 blinds. The button starts to think about it. Is it bad etiquette for the big blind to ask how much the all in is for whilst the button is still thinking?
Comment
-
Originally posted by BrianN View PostI don't think it is tbh. Saw a player do this in a satellite recently. Every time a shorty moved all in this guy would ask for a count just so it was in peoples minds that it was maybe a very short shove that they have to call. It was smart play imo.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Flushdraw View PostSay i'm in seat 10 and i shove a big stack of chips in and say 'All in'. The SB in seat 1 looks up and sees a big stack and looks like he as a decision and thinks for 60 seconds. I think it would be completely wrong for someone else to ask how much it is. Say for arguements sake it's 2 big stacks of small denomination chips and it's only a little more to call, why should the SB be alerted to this by another player if it's his mistake for not noticing or asking how much it is?
Comment
-
Originally posted by Flushdraw View PostDefinetly. I'd treat it the same as a player who has already folded asking how much it is. The only player that should comment on a hand is the player who's turn it is to act imo
The way I see it (which could well be wrong) is that it should be clear to anyone that the BB has an interest in the pot no matter what his cards are so by asking he doesn't reveal any information and shouldn't change anything for the button, one of us is going to have to ask how many chips it is anyway in a couple of seconds; so why unnecessarily slow the game down?
I think this is actually a slightly unusual position (I never remember it happening to me before) because usually the first thing the button will do is ask for a count, and the shove looked so short I knew I was likely to end up calling.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Hectorjelly View PostThe way I see it (which could well be wrong) is that it should be clear to anyone that the BB has an interest in the pot no matter what his cards are so by asking he doesn't reveal any information and shouldn't change anything for the button, one of us is going to have to ask how many chips it is anyway in a couple of seconds; so why unnecessarily slow the game down? .
I pressume this is the Fitz, and it's one of the few places that don't announce the size of the bet once it's made. The situation wouldn't crop up in a lot of other places.
If UTG moved in, what if a guy in mid position or the button asked how much the bet was? That could change the action in front of him. I'm fully in favour of players not revealing anything about the strength of their hand or what action they may take until action gets to them.
Comment
-
Guest
Got two spots from last night of an ethical nature I guess, first hand was from early on in the tourney, second late enough in cash. I was involved in one, won't say which.
Hand 1: Action gets to the river at 50-100 with a small bit of action 4 ways, board runs KJ105A no potential flush, first 3 guys check and button fires like 75% pot, first two guys fold and button exposes his hand which is A10, guy who still has decision, says well tbh I have you beat but I don't have a straight but I really was going to fold to your bet. He then shows his AK and folds and doesn't decide to take guys chips, no floor called.
Hand 2: Action gets to river with perhaps 80e in the pot 3 ways board is like 98624. First guy bets like 25e 2nd guy calls and remaining guy lifts up his cards really high and slowly but doesn't muck or say fold but a fold is definitely his immediate intention. First 2 guys declare one pair each and remaining player, says I haven't folded.(just to say it definitely wasn't an angleshoot although may sound like it). Floor called and rules that last guys hand is obv still alive, he tanks and says I have to call with his 2 pair. First guy is calm and chilled although a little annoyed however 2nd guy gets very annoyed and instantly cashes out cursing etc etc. Winner of pot gives guy who's left his river bet back which is A fine gesture imo.
Although both spots are quite similar from a moral standpoint, they are different, if guy in first scenario was in the same spot in cash, does he fold or if deep in big tourney etc. Never asked TD but can hand 1 be classed as chip dumping?
Comment
-
Hand 1 is definite soft play/collusion or whatever you want to call it. Hand is shown, knows he has that hand beat and then doesn't call or raise!!! WTF I would have called floor if I had been at the table.
Hand 2 seems fine as long as what you say that it wasn't an angle is pretty clear to the other players
Comment
-
Hand one it seems like the guy realises the other player made a mistake and didn't want to take advantage of it. I think he should be applauded for it, not accused of chip dumping. (Why would anyone dump a small amount chips to another player in such an obvious manner) Although the guy who exposed his cards should be more careful.
Hand 2 is much trickier for a variety of reasons
Comment
-
Guest
Originally posted by Hectorjelly View PostHand one it seems like the guy realises the other player made a mistake and didn't want to take advantage of it. I think he should be applauded for it, not accused of chip dumping. (Why would anyone dump a small amount chips to another player in such an obvious manner) Although the guy who exposed his cards should be more careful.
Hand 2 is much trickier for a variety of reasons
Just to say I didn't know the guy at all and would never have folded vs a friend
Comment
-
Stuck a few quid on ipoker for the first time in ages. Playing $20NL 6-max speed/rush poker predominately. Seems to be fairly straightforward ABC stuff from what I can see. Nobody stacking off ridiculously pre-flop and 3-betting doesn't seem to be go-to response to an aggressive player.
Anybody have links to decent articles/posts on adjustments for this turbo poker? Even some tips on it would be great. Its a quite some time since I played and I'm definitely rusty.
Comment
-
Folks, I'd like to get views of you fellow experts in terms of the following:
3 nights in the same week, playing live poker in the same venue, villains are different each night. I'm at (twice) or close to (once) the final table in mtt. I'm short-stacked compared to other stacks; in terms of bb I have 10 to 15, can't recall exactly for each situation. I feel I need to pick a spot and shove, which I do preflop in all cases.
Night 1: I shove with 77, one caller with AKo, river comes A, boom for me.
Night 2: I shove with 66, one caller with AQ (off suit I think), river comes A, boom me
Night 3: I shove with KK, two callers, QQ and 1010. Flop brings a K, I'm rubbing my hands. Rives completes a flush for the QQ. Boom me yet again.
On each night I shake the hand of the victor, say a cheery goodnight to all, walk calmly into the night - and bang my head off/kick every lamppost on the way home!
I'm assuming above are just down to variance and that I will (may!) get a compensating rungood at some stage; but I'm also wondering is there something about my play (or table image) that I'm missing; some inherent flaws in the plays I've illustrated?
Any/all views/opinions/advice, no matter how unflattering!, would be very welcome.
Many thanks, sorry if this is a bit lengthy.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Rahenyrhythm View PostFolks, I'd like to get views of you fellow experts in terms of the following:
3 nights in the same week, playing live poker in the same venue, villains are different each night. I'm at (twice) or close to (once) the final table in mtt. I'm short-stacked compared to other stacks; in terms of bb I have 10 to 15, can't recall exactly for each situation. I feel I need to pick a spot and shove, which I do preflop in all cases.
Night 1: I shove with 77, one caller with AKo, river comes A, boom for me.
Night 2: I shove with 66, one caller with AQ (off suit I think), river comes A, boom me
Night 3: I shove with KK, two callers, QQ and 1010. Flop brings a K, I'm rubbing my hands. Rives completes a flush for the QQ. Boom me yet again.
On each night I shake the hand of the victor, say a cheery goodnight to all, walk calmly into the night - and bang my head off/kick every lamppost on the way home!
I'm assuming above are just down to variance and that I will (may!) get a compensating rungood at some stage; but I'm also wondering is there something about my play (or table image) that I'm missing; some inherent flaws in the plays I've illustrated?
Any/all views/opinions/advice, no matter how unflattering!, would be very welcome.
Many thanks, sorry if this is a bit lengthy.
Comment
-
@Rahenyrhythm they seem super standard shoves but you may want to try and look at your game in the earlier stages as you say you are short vs the rest of the table. Maybe you are playing too tight and consequently end up with little fold equity in the later stages. Be aware when you have 18 to 25 bb that this is the 'reshove' stage where its very profitable to go over the top of probable light opens from big stacks. Winning 1 or two of these without showdown keeps your stack ticking along or if you get called you get a chance to double up to 40+ bigs where you have all your options back.
Comment
-
And fiend,many thanks for that good advice. To be honest, that's the question/conundrum I have been asking myself, ie, how to arrive at the final table without being short-stacked, and this of course goes to the earlier plays. I will consider, revise, and work on those aspects.
Many thanks to you and again to chips, for taking the time and trouble to reply.
Comment
-
Fun hand in a €110 F/O Last night. Standard of players in this particular hand would be average - poor if it makes any difference to your thinking.
I had min-raised UTG and been called in the 3 spots. Then c-bet 3/4 pot and called in 3 spots again.
Holding J10 we get to the turn 4 handed with 15k in the middle (I've 14k behind - 30bbs)
Q97 6
P1 shoves 14k
P2 shoves 13k
P3 shoves 20k
Hero?Last edited by Dice75; 25-09-13, 13:39.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Dice75 View PostFun hand in a €110 F/O Last night. Standard of players in this particular hand would be average - poor if it makes any difference to your thinking.
I had min-raised UTG and been called in the 3 spots. Then c-bet 3/4 pot and called in 3 spots again.
Holding J10 we get to the turn 4 handed with 15k in the middle (I've 14k behind - 30bbs)
Q97 6
P1 shoves 14k
P2 shoves 13k
P3 shoves 20k
Hero?
Comment
-
Originally posted by Dice75 View PostBit vague but anyway, just happened so curious.
Moved to new Table of the Hot $16.50 with blinds at 20/40 (early days)
UTG open shoves 3550 and its folded to you in CO (3500)
Quick OPR shows villain to be big loser at ABI of $9 over 1000 games.
Calling range?
Not really sure though, gona start playing a bit again soon so just posting 1st to see where I'm at.
Comment
Comment