Originally posted by keane2097
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This may or may not be an original thought of my own.
All efforts were made to make this thought original but with the abundance of thoughts in the world the originality of this thought cannot be guaranteed.
The author is not liable for any issue arising from the platitudinous nature of this post.
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Thoughts on this hand. It all went a bit jammy when I decided that the pot was getting too big to play mtw, and wanted to fold out the pfr and play vs the other guy.
Is my CR a bad play here? I have to put one of them on at least TPgk and the other probably on a draw, combos, fds and straight draws..
No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($22.60)
Button ($27.37)
Hero (SB) ($35.03)
BB ($21.93)
UTG ($27.72)
Preflop: Hero is SB with A, J
UTG bets $0.80, MP calls $0.80, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.70, 1 fold
Flop: ($2.60) 8, J, 10 (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $1.60, MP calls $1.60, Hero raises $4.60, UTG calls $3, MP raises $20.20 (All-In), Hero folds, UTG calls $17.20
Turn: ($50.80) A (2 players, 1 all-in)
River: ($50.80) Q (2 players, 1 all-in)
Total pot: $50.80
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I hate these spots. opinions on how this was played? this is only my 3rd round of the table so no notes on villain. hes 36/36 and has opened every BTN so far - means nothing really but anyway
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
Hero (SB) ($26.29)
UTG ($8.09)
MP ($25.90)
CO ($26.94)
BB ($25.35)
Button ($25.50)
Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, Q
3 folds, Button bets $0.75, Hero raises $2.90, 1 fold, Button raises $6.75, Hero calls $4.50
Flop: ($15.25) 3, 9, 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $9.50, Hero raises $18.79 (All-In)
Total pot: $34.25
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Guest
Ship preflop, get it in as played. Non-event of a hand. QQ btn vs blind is just one to chalk up to variance.
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Guest
Originally posted by Bubbleking View Postmerits to shipping pre over flatting the 4bet?
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Originally posted by zuutroy View Postflatting 4bets is pointless. You shouldnt be putting in 30% of your stack and folding unless you're bluffing and calling ain't bluffing. If you flat it and the flop contains an A or a K you stand to miss out on all the money you would have made vs JJ if he was feeling frisky and wanted to get that in. Also because he's IP you'll get bluffed off the best hand on such flops a ton by his 4b bluffs.
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Originally posted by Emmet View PostThoughts on this hand. It all went a bit jammy when I decided that the pot was getting too big to play mtw, and wanted to fold out the pfr and play vs the other guy.
Is my CR a bad play here? I have to put one of them on at least TPgk and the other probably on a draw, combos, fds and straight draws..
No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($22.60)
Button ($27.37)
Hero (SB) ($35.03)
BB ($21.93)
UTG ($27.72)
Preflop: Hero is SB with A, J
UTG bets $0.80, MP calls $0.80, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.70, 1 fold
Flop: ($2.60) 8, J, 10 (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $1.60, MP calls $1.60, Hero raises $4.60, UTG calls $3, MP raises $20.20 (All-In), Hero folds, UTG calls $17.20
Turn: ($50.80) A (2 players, 1 all-in)
River: ($50.80) Q (2 players, 1 all-in)
Total pot: $50.80
and question this
No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($5.22)
CO ($6.60)
Hero (Button) ($58.52)
SB ($20.10)
BB ($20)
UTG ($20.58)
Preflop: Hero is Button with 5, 5
2 folds, CO bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60, 1 fold, BB raises $2.80, 1 fold, [color=#CC3333]Hero ???
3better is a very liberal squeezer. AT+ and KJ+ in his range to squeeze here.
I can't call profitably, do I fold, do I 4bet, or do I shove?
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Originally posted by Emmet View PostThoughts on this hand. It all went a bit jammy when I decided that the pot was getting too big to play mtw, and wanted to fold out the pfr and play vs the other guy.
Is my CR a bad play here? I have to put one of them on at least TPgk and the other probably on a draw, combos, fds and straight draws..
No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($22.60)
Button ($27.37)
Hero (SB) ($35.03)
BB ($21.93)
UTG ($27.72)
Preflop: Hero is SB with A, J
UTG bets $0.80, MP calls $0.80, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.70, 1 fold
Flop: ($2.60) 8, J, 10 (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $1.60, MP calls $1.60, Hero raises $4.60, UTG calls $3, MP raises $20.20 (All-In), Hero folds, UTG calls $17.20
Turn: ($50.80) A (2 players, 1 all-in)
River: ($50.80) Q (2 players, 1 all-in)
Total pot: $50.80
Originally posted by Emmet View PostBUMP the above
and question this
No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($5.22)
CO ($6.60)
Hero (Button) ($58.52)
SB ($20.10)
BB ($20)
UTG ($20.58)
Preflop: Hero is Button with 5, 5
2 folds, CO bets $0.60, Hero calls $0.60, 1 fold, BB raises $2.80, 1 fold, [color=#CC3333]Hero ???
3better is a very liberal squeezer. AT+ and KJ+ in his range to squeeze here.
I can't call profitably, do I fold, do I 4bet, or do I shove?
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Guest
Calling there is brutal. You've got about 50c in implied odds when you hit if he's a serial squeezer. Just fold, your hand is pretty much face up as a middling PP when you backraise here, and he can play accordingly. Flat AA next time and back raise. Easy game.
In the other hand I'd just flat, board sucks and you're crushed or flipping when you get it in. I'd call now as you have an overlay and he never plays a strong made hand like that unless Qc9c.
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The AJ hand you overplayed your hand somewhat. Deciding the pot is too big to play multiway and then raising for that reason doesnt make any sense.
Second hand. Yeah dont ever ever call. Just fold. Easy game.This may or may not be an original thought of my own.
All efforts were made to make this thought original but with the abundance of thoughts in the world the originality of this thought cannot be guaranteed.
The author is not liable for any issue arising from the platitudinous nature of this post.
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No support for a backraise all in?
Has to have a decent amount of FE, when we're called we're flipping mostly, and crushed the odd time. He 3bets say JJ+ AT+ and KJ+. Say he folds AT/AJ and KJ, and calls with the rest.
That's definitely a +EV play?
EDIT - 55=22=99 here. Would you fold 99 in this spot?
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Originally posted by Theresa View PostThe AJ hand you overplayed your hand somewhat. Deciding the pot is too big to play multiway and then raising for that reason doesnt make any sense.
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I call, and the turn comes a club, I'm almost always c/f. Turn comes a 9,T,Q and I'm c/f too.
Maybe pot controlling is the best line here, and knowing that I will have to fold on later streets a hell of a lot of the time?
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Originally posted by Emmet View Postmtw and soaking wet board were the reasons.
I call, and the turn comes a club, I'm almost always c/f. Turn comes a 9,T,Q and I'm c/f too.
Maybe pot controlling is the best line here, and knowing that I will have to fold on later streets a hell of a lot of the time?
Then, you might raise for protection sometimes too(its player dependent), but raising for protection when an UTG raiser was called in two spots and cbet on a board like this and was called usually means someones not going to fold and against any realistic range for this spot. You're goosed. Especially at 20nl. So you've effectively turned a hand with a hell of a lot of showdown value into a bluff.
Yeah I'd call and then your playing poker.This may or may not be an original thought of my own.
All efforts were made to make this thought original but with the abundance of thoughts in the world the originality of this thought cannot be guaranteed.
The author is not liable for any issue arising from the platitudinous nature of this post.
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Guest
Originally posted by Emmet View PostNo support for a backraise all in?
Has to have a decent amount of FE, when we're called we're flipping mostly, and crushed the odd time. He 3bets say JJ+ AT+ and KJ+. Say he folds AT/AJ and KJ, and calls with the rest.
That's definitely a +EV play?
EDIT - 55=22=99 here. Would you fold 99 in this spot?
EV when he folds: = 0.3 x $4.10 = $1.23
EV when he calls = 0.7 x [(0.4 x 21.2)-(0.6 x 19.4)] = -$2.21
so total EV is -$1 or so. Even if you're in better shape or he folds more often, its still just a variance fest for no gain.
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What to do here ? Villian is 20/16 3 bet 2.8 no notes and thats over 500 hands
No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
UTG ($18.25)
MP ($50.75)
CO ($113.45)
Button ($50.60)
SB ($56.74)
Hero (BB) ($142.51)
Preflop: Hero is BB with J, J
3 folds, Button bets $1.50, 1 fold, Hero raises $4, Button raises $49.10 (All-In), 1 fold
Total pot: $9.25
Any thoughts on this hand bit of an annoying one.
My thoughts
Flop - folding has to be seen as very weak
Turn - guess here is where the debate begins really. Should i flat his bet again on the turn is raising bad?
Villian is 19/15/3.0
No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($164.86)
CO ($76.06)
Button ($50.75)
SB ($32.94)
BB ($70.26)
Hero (UTG) ($93.27)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, Q
Hero bets $2, 1 fold, CO calls $2, 3 folds
Flop: ($4.75) 9, 8, 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $2.50, CO raises $7.50, Hero calls $5
Turn: ($19.75) Q (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $14, Hero raises $31, CO calls $17
River: ($81.75) 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $52.77 (All-In), CO calls $35.56 (All-In)
Total pot: $152.87Pm for rakeback deals
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Hand 1, 3bet to 5.50. Folding is good to a 4bet shove without any reads.
Hand 2, Cbet bigger, 3.25/3.50, call the raise. as there's tonnes of hands he raises there we're still ahead of.
I probably lead the turn though. He has to have a lot of FDs in his hand, and checking allows him to take a free card.
67 and JT are the only hands you're losing to, and 55,77,99 and some combos are all calling a turn lead and maybe even raising.
If you C/R the turn, you have to shove river imo. He has sets and JJ way more than he has straights.
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1. Snapping the 4bet Button Vs Blinds. Don't 3bet if you not going to get it in.
2. Fine apart from maybe bet sizing. I would fold flop against some people as its a horrible spot to be OOP with the streets to run on that board when raised. I would also think about checking the flop sometimes.
OprLast edited by Opr; 27-10-10, 19:16.
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Guest
1. I fold and 3b bigger. @ opr: you're not getting nearly the right price here.
To make a profit in this spot he has to be capable of doing this with 99+ and KQ+ which is dreamland with no history imo. I don't mind the 3b as he will continue with worse but only shove better/flipping hands.
2. Deepish and oop I'm happy enough to fold to the flop raise. His range has got you crushed.
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
19,800 games 0.034 secs 582,352 games/sec
Board: 9s 5h 8h
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 24.081% 23.49% 00.59% 4652 116.00 { QdQs }
Hand 1: 75.919% 75.33% 00.59% 14916 116.00 { 99-88, 55, AhQh, AhJh, AhTh, Ah9h, KhQh, KhJh, JhTh, 76s }
Don't like leading as he can correctly fold his FD's and he's likely to barrel I think. Raise sizing is meh you're nearly pricing him in, just ship.
Checking the flop just gives him open season to barrel and put us in terribad spots so dont like that either.Last edited by Guest; 27-10-10, 20:19.
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Originally posted by zuutroy View Post1. I fold and 3b bigger. @ opr: you're not getting nearly the right price here.
To make a profit in this spot he has to be capable of doing this with 99+ and KQ+ which is dreamland with no history imo. I don't mind the 3b as he will continue with worse but only shove better/flipping hands.
If he 4bets normally do you fold Zuu ?
OprLast edited by Opr; 27-10-10, 20:36.
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Guest
I shove AA there the odd time to make it look like AK so people spazz with weaker pairs then they normally would when you plant that seed of doubt, but there would have to be history or a perception that I was tilted. I've also seen people do it with AA and KK a bit lately.
If he 4b to a reguar size I'd be more inclined to shove as people have 4b bluffs but no one has 4b bluff shoves, but really getting JJ in pre- in a low stakes game is probably breakeven at best, but good for image concerns if there's a smallish player pool or if you've a lot of history with the guy. I don't hate 3bet/folding it just to save the varianceLast edited by Guest; 27-10-10, 21:35.
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Yeah I hadn't even considered folding when I read it tbh. I think the shove definitely takes some combos of AA and KK out, and increases the likelyhood of AK or a medium pair that the villain will find too tricky to play so just shoves, especially at a lower level."In the world, there are many kings but there is only one God. I am God, I am El Tren" :{)
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Originally posted by Opr View Post
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Originally posted by Bubbleking View Postthat hand is just a cold deck there is nothing you can do about it
I've been thinking about it a good bit and tbh wish I had thought about it for a while longer before posting in the thread.
I definitely don't think it can be written off to a cold deck since we are not short stacked and facing someone else who isn't either.
The more I think about it the more I think it's a fold on the flop.
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Originally posted by Caf View PostIs it really? Should we get to the turn at all? How good is our hand to a reraise on he flop v an unknown?
I've been thinking about it a good bit and tbh wish I had thought about it for a while longer before posting in the thread.
I definitely don't think it can be written off to a cold deck since we are not short stacked and facing someone else who isn't either.
The more I think about it the more I think it's a fold on the flop.
Opr
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Originally posted by Opr View PostWhile I agree with with your post in general I don't think we can ever fold on the flop. Its pretty in vogue at the moment to raise dry A high boards as a bluff and it always was something people like to do so I thinking calling the flop is mandatory. The turn only changes our hand in respect of the weighting you assign villain having A2 and A6 (Surely this is small calling a raise from UTG) and maybe some spaz weighting towards AK. That means he needs to have a pretty big bluffing range on the turn.
Opr
We do have a nice stack to go deep and win it.
I agree with mellor that we should be making our decision on the flop.
Like you, I would be interested to hear what others think about the hand.
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Originally posted by tipp86 View PostWhat to do here ? Villian is 20/16 3 bet 2.8 no notes and thats over 500 hands
No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
UTG ($18.25)
MP ($50.75)
CO ($113.45)
Button ($50.60)
SB ($56.74)
Hero (BB) ($142.51)
Preflop: Hero is BB with J, J
3 folds, Button bets $1.50, 1 fold, Hero raises $4, Button raises $49.10 (All-In), 1 fold
Total pot: $9.25
Any thoughts on this hand bit of an annoying one.
My thoughts
Flop - folding has to be seen as very weak
Turn - guess here is where the debate begins really. Should i flat his bet again on the turn is raising bad?
Villian is 19/15/3.0
No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($164.86)
CO ($76.06)
Button ($50.75)
SB ($32.94)
BB ($70.26)
Hero (UTG) ($93.27)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, Q
Hero bets $2, 1 fold, CO calls $2, 3 folds
Flop: ($4.75) 9, 8, 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $2.50, CO raises $7.50, Hero calls $5
Turn: ($19.75) Q (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $14, Hero raises $31, CO calls $17
River: ($81.75) 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $52.77 (All-In), CO calls $35.56 (All-In)
Total pot: $152.87"I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson
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Guest
Originally posted by digiman View PostIm snapping the JJ hand. Would never even enter my head to fold. I think people in this forum should start calling more!!!
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Guest
Originally posted by Sledgejammer View PostYeah I hadn't even considered folding when I read it tbh. I think the shove definitely takes some combos of AA and KK out, and increases the likelyhood of AK or a medium pair that the villain will find too tricky to play so just shoves, especially at a lower level.
Certainly every time I call here they have it!
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Originally posted by Caf View PostIs it really? Should we get to the turn at all? How good is our hand to a reraise on he flop v an unknown?
I've been thinking about it a good bit and tbh wish I had thought about it for a while longer before posting in the thread.
I definitely don't think it can be written off to a cold deck since we are not short stacked and facing someone else who isn't either.
The more I think about it the more I think it's a fold on the flop.
I dont think we can fold the turn because we are behind 3 combos of 22 and 3 of 66 - I think villain reraises AA pre and I doubt he raises the flop with QQ. we are ahead of 4 combos of AK and 2 of AJ (assuming villain raises AJ and continues on turn 1/2 of the time) we are also chopping with the other 2 combos of AQ.
So thats 6 times we are behind, 6 times we are in front and twice we are chopping. It leans more to us being in front if you throw in some random bluffs and worse 2 pair hands that the villain might have.
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Originally posted by tipp86 View PostAny thoughts on this hand bit of an annoying one.
My thoughts
Flop - folding has to be seen as very weak
Turn - guess here is where the debate begins really. Should i flat his bet again on the turn is raising bad?
Villian is 19/15/3.0
No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP ($164.86)
CO ($76.06)
Button ($50.75)
SB ($32.94)
BB ($70.26)
Hero (UTG) ($93.27)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, Q
Hero bets $2, 1 fold, CO calls $2, 3 folds
Flop: ($4.75) 9, 8, 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $2.50, CO raises $7.50, Hero calls $5
Turn: ($19.75) Q (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $14, Hero raises $31, CO calls $17
River: ($81.75) 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $52.77 (All-In), CO calls $35.56 (All-In)
Total pot: $152.87
I would rather turn my hand into a bluff catcher from here, there are way more combos of hands that beat us than we beat when he calls imo.
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People need to realise that because a range is wide, it doesn't meant it cat have us crushed.
In the QQ hand, the range at which he value raises has us crushed, his semi bluffs have us in a very very marginal spot with 2 street to come and he is quite aggro making it very hard for us to profit.
He doesn't stone cold bluff here very often at all. Tipp opened UTG so it makes him less likely to try a bluff in this spot given the weighting on tipps range.Last edited by Theresa; 28-10-10, 09:50.This may or may not be an original thought of my own.
All efforts were made to make this thought original but with the abundance of thoughts in the world the originality of this thought cannot be guaranteed.
The author is not liable for any issue arising from the platitudinous nature of this post.
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Guest
Originally posted by digiman View Post67 is now a fold if they were the villan
I would rather turn my hand into a bluff catcher from here, there are way more combos of hands that beat us than we beat when he calls imo.Last edited by Guest; 28-10-10, 10:51.
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Originally posted by zuutroy View Postat 50nl? Jaysus I'm out of the loop. That shit didn't even happen much at 400nl 2 years ago
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Originally posted by zuutroy View Postat 50nl? Jaysus I'm out of the loop. That shit didn't even happen much at 400nl 2 years ago"I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson
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Guest
Rush is some craic. I put $50 on just to try it out and spun it up to $250 in 1k hands or so. I've seen at least two people 4b shove with AA and KK. What do you make of it Andy, better than 10 tabling ipoker with high RB? Certainly seems fishy enough. People don't seem to fight for pots in it. You wouldn't be doing much wrong by raising every flop where you called a raise pre imo!
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Originally posted by zuutroy View PostRush is some craic. I put $50 on just to try it out and spun it up to $250 in 1k hands or so. I've seen at least two people 4b shove with AA and KK. What do you make of it Andy, better than 10 tabling ipoker with high RB? Certainly seems fishy enough. People don't seem to fight for pots in it. You wouldn't be doing much wrong by raising every flop where you called a raise pre imo!
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Originally posted by zuutroy View PostRush is some craic. I put $50 on just to try it out and spun it up to $250 in 1k hands or so. I've seen at least two people 4b shove with AA and KK. What do you make of it Andy, better than 10 tabling ipoker with high RB? Certainly seems fishy enough. People don't seem to fight for pots in it. You wouldn't be doing much wrong by raising every flop where you called a raise pre imo!
1. No table selection - The fish come to you, tables never fall apart, it doesn't take an hour to get a game dynamic going and you're never stuck with someone tricky to your left.
2. Easily exploitable players who think that nobody's using HEM so they can 3bet 20% and raise every flop."I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson
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Originally posted by zuutroy View PostWhat do you make of it Andy, better than 10 tabling ipoker with high RB?May you live in interesting times!
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Originally posted by digiman View Post8 tabling rush is nice, 1500+ hands in an hour is hard to beat.
I also never play a session longer than 70 minutes unless I have a Jesus seat as I need to clear my head and go again
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Originally posted by Emmet View Post+1, especially people calling 5bet shoves with AK.
Nobody 4bets light, less 5bet light.
The regs are crazy weak tight at 50nl and down."I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson
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Originally posted by bp_me View PostOver 7.7k hands at 5NL I have paid $30 in rake in this month. This is $8.10 in rb ignoring the effective rb from other bonuses. A looser player would obviously earn a lot more but you can extrapolate from there.
There's a great comparison page on pokertableratings.com but I can't link it on my phone
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Oh, also another possible negative point is that you can play in Euros on ipoker and not on FT obv, as its obv nice to play at a technically higher stake with the same level of competition. I tried to do a bunch of calculations when it first came out to see which was better and its almost impossible to have the same hourly non-rush unless you mega mega multitable even with the higher rb and higher currency denominations. And i cant play more than 8 tables w/o my head exploding so its a no brainer i think.
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Originally posted by AndyFB View PostYeah 4bet bluffing is the business at 50nl. So many guys are 3betting 8%+ and never 5 bet bluffing. So very, very profitable.
Never really thought much into it, as I'm usually the aggro 3bettor at the table and nobody adjusts so I don't have to worry about it
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Originally posted by Emmet View PostWhat kind of hands should we 4bet bluff actually?
Never really thought much into it, as I'm usually the aggro 3bettor at the table and nobody adjusts so I don't have to worry about it
Also, depending on their range 8% is not a high enough number to consider4bet bluffing, like blinds on button or button on cutoff it needs to be situationally 11% at least to even consider it, which is a mistake people make i think.
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Originally posted by Bubbleking View PostIf I play over 400 hands an hour my win rate is directly proportional to the amount of extra hands I play. My head gets fried and I cant concentrate.
I also never play a session longer than 70 minutes unless I have a Jesus seat as I need to clear my head and go again
Me and Digiman discussed this the other day in the BBV. Adding extra tables in Rush is a case of diminishing returns, because the biggest limiter to your hands-per-hour is the time it takes you to click Autofold after your hand is dealt. IMO 8 tabling Rush is madness, but he seems to be ok with it. Obviously he's a much sicker grinder than me."I can’t find anyone who agrees with what I write or think these days, so I guess I must be getting closer to the truth." - Hunter S. Thompson
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