Bad beat/Moan/Venting Thread - BBV Archive 1

[Sledgejammer]

You live in Ireland and can judge the fans better than Sid Lowe in Madrid? Also your analogy with English fans is ridiculous as it presupposes that I can only get information from those sources and have the intrinsic bias of an English reader rather than being an outsider like Mr. Lowe. Furthermore Sid Lowe is very much a fan of Barcelona and, if anything, is willing to see the positive side of their club.

I'm glad you like Guardiola. When did I mention him? I was taking about an ethos within the club. The ethos comes from Cruyff, not the manager. He is an enormous figure at Barcelona, moreso than any manager since himself.

You can continue spouting history at Lloyd. The club do have an overinflated sense of self importance. They are a football club, and an exceptional one at that, and in that context their sense of importance is ridiculous.

For a man of the law you've weird arguments. When did I judge the fans of the club or mention anything about what they were thinking or remotely imply I was more qualified than anyone on their opinions? I questioned how much Lowe, living in Madrid, would hear from the fans of Barcelona on a daily basis to be able to give them a collective opinion (The concept of that in itself is absurd but that's another point, they aren't the borg, one fan may think loleasy win and another may think they'll be hammered before any match). My point was that you're going by very slim evidence about what the fans think, it may be the only evidence you have, but to put it in your terms, it wouldn't stand up in court. Just because you've access to more evidence in England doesn't make the same evidence more or less credibile, it is what it is. I've no idea what the Barca fans were thinking, neither do you. That was my point. I offered no judgement on what anyone was thinking. I simply said you haven't got enough to go on to claim anything about what they were thinking.

I'm not even saying your wrong by the way, just a) there isn't enough to suggest you're right and b) nobody was arguing anything to do with that anyway. Honestly, I've no interest in getting into an argument about whether the club is 'arrogant', I don't know enough fans to judge either way.

[redzerdrog]

do barcelona not have some sort of deal with that mega rich uzbekistan side worth millions to them, that makes up for the shirt sponsership

[tylerdurden94]

10mb is €32 a month usually.

I got it at €38 a month, but you only pay for the first 9 months of the year. (last 3 free)

Huh im confused you can get 15mb for €32 a month why do you get 10 for the same price?

[Solskjaer]

Didnt hear any of this barca stuff when they beat United in the final last year

[LuckyLloyd]

Still waiting on that list, Lloyd.

And I'm sure it has its benefits, I doubt it brings in as much as a shirt sponsor would, and they donate millions to charity. I don't see why donating millions to charity is a policy that should be attacked.

You're waiting on a list that can't exist, because the real nature of Barca itself couldn't be included on it in the terms you outlined. Because after all, Barca are the club that have profit making arrangements in place with such companies as Nike, Coca-Cola, Audi, TV3, Estrella Damm, La Caixa, bwin, Acer, MediaPro, NH Hoteles, Vueling and Babybel; and actively lobby to keep the gaping disparity from TV revenue sharing in La Liga in place. They pursue their own business agenda every bit as aggressively as clubs owned by Russian billionaires do. They just do it a lot smarter in terms of PR.

In any case, the ownership structure of a club is a small aspect of what makes it mean so much to its fans in terms of the sense of representation, community, history, etc.

[ArmaniJeans]

No, the point is that taking on the Unicef name onto the shirts made the club money, when it is being portrayed as something they paid for, some sort of noble sacrifice. It's that sort of thing that grates.

It is something they paid for and directly lose money on. They further lose direct money on the XX€M they would be given by companies to put a sponsors name on their jersey.

They then recoup a completely unquantifiable amount of money by virtue of not having a shirt sponsor. As maybe some punters buy a jersey to show how caring and right-on they are... and the clubs gets a bit of extra good press which just might accrue some more income. But no-one can have even a ballpark figure on what this amount might be.

To suggest the Unicef shirt deal is cynically done to make money is borderline crazy.

Its sad that people have to see an ulterior motive in a good deed.

[Kayroo]

For a man of the law you've weird arguments. When did I judge the fans of the club or mention anything about what they were thinking or remotely imply I was more qualified than anyone on their opinions? I questioned how much Lowe, living in Madrid, would hear from the fans of Barcelona on a daily basis to be able to give them a collective opinion (The concept of that in itself is absurd but that's another point, they aren't the borg, one fan may think loleasy win and another may think they'll be hammered before any match). My point was that you're going by very slim evidence about what the fans think, it may be the only evidence you have, but to put it in your terms, it wouldn't stand up in court. Just because you've access to more evidence in England doesn't make the same evidence more or less credibile, it is what it is. I've no idea what the Barca fans were thinking, neither do you. That was my point. I offered no judgement on what anyone was thinking. I simply said you haven't got enough to go on to claim anything about what they were thinking.

I'm not even saying your wrong by the way, just a) there isn't enough to suggest you're right and b) nobody was arguing anything to do with that anyway. Honestly, I've no interest in getting into an argument about whether the club is 'arrogant', I don't know enough fans to judge either way.

To put it "in my terms" I won't engage in ad hominem arguments.

Let me boil my argument down for you so you can understand it.

Barcelona are an arrogant club with an overinflated sense of importance, both in football terms and otherwise.

No matter how deep their history nothing whatsoever gives them the right to hold themselves as being better than other clubs. Not better in terms of results just somehow morally superior (which is the ultimate issue here surely?). Barcelona simply believe they are intrinsically a superior club to all others.

If we put this in the context of a person, for sake of ease, Barcelona would be a very successful guy who does lots of charity work and other philanthropic endeavours but goes around constantly with an air of superiority to everyone around him. That guy is an asshole. Fact.

[eagle eye]

Commentary on the Barca debate

It seems to me that Sledgehammer knows his stuff and he is posting some excellent and insightful information tonight.

I think LL is used to winning these battles but is lacking something, I just don't think his heart is in it, I don't think he believes for one minute what he is saying regarding the shirt sponsorship. He is relentless in trying to win an argument/debate, its actually quite possible that the fear of losing this debate might have brought out dirty tactics with him enlisting the help of another true master of debate, another master of english language, the equally eristic Kayroo.

[Emmet]

Huh im confused you can get 15mb for €32 a month why do you get 10 for the same price?

it wasn't 15mb when I signed up, and to upgrade means signing a new contract for 12 months.

Student deal will be out again in Sept, and it will be whatever the standard offer is at a slightly higher rate per month, but with 3 months free.

[CHDad]

It seems to me that Sledgehammer knows his stuff and he is posting some excellent and insightful information tonight.

I think LL is used to winning these battles but is lacking something, I just don't think his heart is in it, I don't think he believes for one minute what he is saying regarding the shirt sponsorship. He is relentless in trying to win an argument/debate, its actually quite possible that the fear of losing this debate might have brought out dirty tactics with him enlisting the help of another true master of debate, another master of english language, the equally eristic Kayroo.

I reckon there is a few hours left in this too. Too close to call right now.

[redzerdrog]

old artical but some might be fnd it interesting

Amidst little fanfare in 2008, Barcelona announced a cooperative link up with an obscure team in Uzbekistan, Kuruvchi FC. It is a deal that has definitely benefited both clubs, but the commercial partnership has raised questions. Not least because the Uzbeki government has one of the worst records in the world for human rights violations, and that Barcelona are sponsored by UNICEF.

Initially the link up was on footballing grounds, with Kuruvchi players being allowed to train with and be trained by Barcelona players at Miniestadi during their winter break. The two clubs would then play a lucrative friendly before March 2010. Also, players such as Samuel Eto'o, Carles Puyol, and Andres Iniesta would travel to Tashkent, the capital, to cement the deal in the eyes of the media.



But who are Kuruvchi?

It might be news to many, but the club are now one of the world's richest teams, and are a powerhouse in Asian football, despite only being created in July 2005.

Initially when the club were created they were called Neftgazmontaj-Quruvchi, which was then shortened to Kuruvchi, which means "creator" in the Uzbek language. By 2008, The Swallows had won promotion twice and were playing in the highest league possible in Uzbekistan, the Uzbek Oliy League. In their first season in the Uzbek Premier League they won the double.

Shortly after the club changed their name to Bunyodkor and then announced a renewable yearly partnership deal with Barcelona. That season the club who had not existed a mere three years before made it to the semifinals of the Asian Champions League where they were eventually beaten by Australian outfit Adelaide United.

Bunyodkor then began to build a massive 15,000-seat stadium, where Barcelona President Joan Laporta planted the first brick in a huge PR exercise. Less than 18 months later and the club are on the verge of building a $150 million stadium, despite their 'old' stadium being only one year old.

With money being no obstacle, Bunyodkor began to attract some of the world's best players to enhance their growing reputation. Barcelona players Carles Puyol, Lionel Messi, Andres Iniesta, and Arsenal's Cesc Fabregas all received €1 million each to perform at a PR training school and to wear the Bunyodkor jersey for further publicity.

Not happy with just being linked with the games top stars through PR purposes, the club made an audacious bid to sign Samuel Eto'o and offered the Cameroonian star €25 million to play for club for just three months. He turned the deal down and chose to link up with Jose Mourinho at Inter Milan.

The club then moved to sign Rivaldo from AEK Athens . The 36-year-old will take home a reported $14 million for two years worth of his services. Zico then joined his fellow countryman for four months before he too was replaced with yet another wandering Brazilian, one Luiz Felipe Scolari . The World Cup winner had just been sacked by Chelsea and was looking for a new club.



Money Matters


How did a team rise from complete non-existence five years ago to become one of the richest clubs on the planet?

For this we have to go back to the name change of the club. When Kuruvchi were initially created they were representative of the local area. Seeing a glorious chance for international PR they changed their name, mid-season and without prior acknowledgement to anyone, to Bunyodkor, citing the main reason for this change as the club were no longer regional but national representatives.

The vice-president explained the economic expediency of the move this way:

“The number of sponsors and partners of the club has grown: it was four (official founders are Neftegezmontaj, UzGazOil , Gissarneftgaz and Kokdumalakgaz ), whereas now it has grown to 12. All these companies are involved in the creative sector of the country’s economy.”

That is why the club’s name was changed from “builder” to “creator”.

The badge of the club was changed during this stage too, to one almost identical to that of Barcelona's.

According to sources in Russia and Uzbekistan, the main money-men behind the club are Zeromax , and their alleged owner Gulnara Karimova . (wiki)

Gulnara Karimova is the daughter of Uzbekistan's President for life, Islam Karimov. Under his rule for the past 20 years, Uzbekistan has become one of the world's worst black-spots for human rights violations.



Human Rights

As recently as March 26 2010, Human Rights Watch found Uzbekistan's current record as being abysmal by international standards. During their study of the country, it was found that people were detained with impunity, that journalists and NGO's were regularly arrested simply because of their profession, and the use of torture and ill treatment was rampant.

The committee also raised the issue of child labour which is seen as being widespread throughout the country.

UNICEF , are the worlds leading child protection agency, and Barcelona's sponsor are heavily engaged in trying to bring about change in Uzbekistan.

During their studies on Uzbekistan it was found that unemployment is rife, almost 40 percent, and that the rate of children being left in orphanages to care for them is on the rise. Of these children roughly 10 percent are used for child labour like intensive cotton harvesting, while cases of child trafficking and child prostitution has also been reported.

It was also found during these studies by UNICEF and Human Rights Watch that the government were very lax when it came to applying international law for child labour.

Which brings us back to Bunyodkor and their alleged links with a government with a terrible human rights record.

There are many opponents to the regime in Uzbekistan. In 2009, Freedom House deemed Uzbekistan as being "the worst of the worst" in terms of civil rights abuses. While long time anti-Karimov campaigner Craig Murray has launched many scathing attacks on Uzbekistan's human rights abuses.

Murray was the British Ambassador to Uzbekistan between 2002 and 2004, before he was removed from his post after exposing civil rights abuses by the US funded Karimov government. His book Murder in Samarkand documented his two years in Tashkent and how the abuses and double standards employed by the British and American governments changed his beliefs and outlook on life. It will be released as a film in 2011.

In 2007, Murray wrote an article linking Alisher Usmanov with the Karimov government in Uzbekistan, and that he was the money behind both them and Gulnara. Since then "the hard man of Russia" has taken over a 25 percent stake in Arsenal FC.

When asked about Budyonkor's and Gulnara Karimova's rise, Murray had this to say.

"It's part of a campaign by the president to win popularity for his daughter. I hear that she will eventually replace him as president. The regime is trying to win popularity by the old-fashioned bread-and-circuses method."

To many political commentators she is seen as the only possible heir to her father, as she will be the only one able to protect both her and her father's assets and cronies.

Through pumping money into Bunyodkor, she has begun to change the face of the family and is seen as using the clubs supporters to gain credence for the governing political party that she is destined to take over.

The link up with Barcelona has certainly put Bunyodkor on the map.

It is somewhat ironic that Gulnara Karimova is now Uzbekistan's Ambassador to Spain, and this has fueled the speculation that she is considering buying RCD Mallorca.

Recently she held an auction with the donations set for various charities. During the sale she declared that she was representing UNICEF, something the organisation fiercely deny.

“UNICEF does not have any projects with Ms Karimova. We do not have any relations with Chopard,” the spokesperson said.

This did not put Karimova off, as she continued to declare UNICEF as her main sponsor.

In another event she enticed Sting to play in Uzbekistan for £1 million. When the British press found out about the event the singer was embarrassed into making an excuse. He used UNICEF as his shield. Something the organisation vehemently denied.

Gulnara also used Elton John for publicity during a visit to Los Angeles. The gay activist and AIDS campaigner was probably unaware that he was standing beside a representative of a government that would have jailed him for his sexuality and beliefs.

In 2006, Barcelona chose the moral high ground by letting UNICEF become the sponsor of their famous jersey. It was the first time in over 107 years that the club had allowed an emblem on their jersey.

At the time many cynical commentators alluded to Barcelona trying to tap into a new market by allowing the well known children's rights organisation sit proudly on their jersey.

"For the first time in our more than 107 years of history, our main soccer team will wear an emblem on the front of its shirt," said Joan Laporta the Barcelona president at a UNICEF executive committee meeting . "It will not be the brand name of a corporation.

"It will not be a commercial to promote some kind of business. It will be the logo of 'Unicef'. Through UNICEF, we, the people of FC Barcelona, the people of 'Barça', are very proud to donate our shirt to the children of the world who are our present, but especially are our future."

Barcelona have become involved with a team backed by an allegedly corrupt government, and one that has been accused of gross injustices, for a reported £5 million a year. While wearing the UNICEF logo, it would seem that Los Cules have many questions to answer.

[Sledgejammer]

You're waiting on a list that can't exist, because the real nature of Barca itself couldn't be included on it in the terms you outlined. Because after all, Barca are the club that have profit making arrangements in place with such companies as Nike, Coca-Cola, Audi, TV3, Estrella Damm, La Caixa, bwin, Acer, MediaPro, NH Hoteles, Vueling and Babybel; and actively lobby to keep the gaping disparity from TV revenue sharing in La Liga in place. They pursue their own business agenda every bit as aggressively as clubs owned by Russian billionaires do. They just do it a lot smarter in terms of PR.

In any case, the ownership structure of a club is a small aspect of what makes it mean so much to its fans in terms of the sense of representation, community, history, etc.

Of course they will pursue their business and they do it well, but the point is they do it not for profit or for the interests of a minority or an owner, but it's done for the benefit of the 100,000+ people who own the club and the people of the area and nothing else. Every decision they take is for their benefit, nobody else. Nobody can ever come in and change that or change them, they'll never answer to shareholders and they'll never rely on the millions of a foreign investor using them as a play thing. It is because of that and their history and they earned the right to use that phrase. Like I said, they were seen as the symbol of an entity that fought the attempt to oppress and destroy an entire culture. Few to no other clubs can claim that, as a result few to no other clubs will 'mean' as much or be 'worth' as much to a people as Barcelona are. They haven't got an overinflated sense of selfworth, they are simply worth an immeasurable amount to the Catalan people - All of this is well documented by many many sources and until today I thought fairly beyond argument.

[LuckyLloyd]

I reckon there is a few hours left in this too. Too close to call right now.

Not on my part, I'll be off to bed soon enough!

[eagle eye]

I reckon there is a few hours left in this too. Too close to call right now.

Don't worry folks both myself and CHD will be here until the end, it could be bittter, it could be friendly but it sure will be enjoyable!

[MegaSin]

Can we not say both sides are right and be friends

[Sledgejammer]

To put it "in my terms" I won't engage in ad hominem arguments.

Let me boil my argument down for you so you can understand it.

Barcelona are an arrogant club with an overinflated sense of importance, both in football terms and otherwise.

No matter how deep their history nothing whatsoever gives them the right to hold themselves as being better than other clubs. Not better in terms of results just somehow morally superior (which is the ultimate issue here surely?). Barcelona simply believe they are intrinsically a superior club to all others.

If we put this in the context of a person, for sake of ease, Barcelona would be a very successful guy who does lots of charity work and other philanthropic endeavours but goes around constantly with an air of superiority to everyone around him. That guy is an asshole. Fact.

When have Barcelona claimed to be morally better than anyone? Produce evidence to back up your statement that they believe they are intrinsically superior to all other clubs Honestly, find a point and argue with it, don't create one and argue with it.

They are certainly unique, and what they mean to the people of their region is immeasurable, they are every bit Mes Que Un Club and can be that without comparing themselves to any other club. They've every right to mention their history and mention their place in the heart of a culture, very few other clubs exist in this way, that isn't Barcelonas fault, nor the fault of the other clubs nor does it make them morally inferior nor has anyone claimed it did.

[LuckyLloyd]

Of course they will pursue their business and they do it well, but the point is they do it not for profit or for the interests of a minority or an owner, but it's done for the benefit of the 100,000+ people who own the club and the people of the area and nothing else. Every decision they take is for their benefit, nobody else. Nobody can ever come in and change that or change them, they'll never answer to shareholders and they'll never rely on the millions of a foreign investor using them as a play thing. It is because of that and their history and they earned the right to use that phrase. Like I said, they were seen as the symbol of an entity that fought the attempt to oppress and destroy an entire culture. Few to no other clubs can claim that, as a result few to no other clubs will 'mean' as much or be 'worth' as much to a people as Barcelona are. They haven't got an overinflated sense of selfworth, they are simply worth an immeasurable amount to the Catalan people - All of this is well documented by many many sources and until today I thought fairly beyond argument.

What is the ratio of Catalan population as a whole : members of FC Barcelona? You are talking about a football club at the end of the day.

[daire]

Well I could think about a club like Athletico Bilbao who genuinely attempted to be a quasi national side in terms of its self imposed player eligibility restrictions, and the damage it suffered to its competitiveness (and consequent profitability) as a result.

And as for the gallant picture you are painting about the shirt sponsor stuff, please stop - I don't buy into it.

This is a great point imo. Barcelona definitely have some vision of themselves as some quixotic swashbucking team that represent all that is good, fair and free in the world. The level of worship that goes on from Dunphy and the likes is getting sickening at this stage. Sure my ma, who has no interest at all in sports has even jumped on the bandwagon and was shouting "ahhh messi" periodically during the match and at one point questioned why Eto'o would ever leave a glorious club like Barca. No one goes around sucking the todger off Bilbao and some ex-eastern bloc clubs that equally represent(ed) freedom to other groups of people.

A lot of people (not pointing the finger at you at all Sledgejammer) would consider GAA to be a bigotted, outdated organisation while at the same time praising Barca for promoting the same values and causes as they do/did. The hypocrisy is lol.

I love Barca as a club and as a city, I've been there 4 times and been to 3 Barca games but the level of worship that goes on is a bit stomach-churning imo.

[CHDad]

Don't worry folks both myself and CHD will be here until the end, it could be bittter, it could be friendly but it sure will be enjoyable!

Nice tactic from Lloyd there claiming he will go to bed soon.

[Emmet]

LuckyLloyd

[eagle eye]

Nice tactic from Lloyd there claiming he will go to bed soon.

I don't know CHD, I think he regrets posting that now, if he had waited one more minute I think he would have refrained from making that comment. Redzerdog just appeared like Batman with a huge article that might sway this debate back in favour of LL and Kayroo.

I think LL might have changed his mind about going to bed!

[Opr]

I am also sure a few of the top English clubs could stick a charity on their jersey if the TV money was shared as it is in Spain!

Opr

[Ace]

I don't know CHD, I think he regrets posting that now, if he had waited one more minute I think he would have refrained from making that comment. Redzerdog just appeared like Batman with a huge article that might sway this debate back in favour of LL and Kayroo.

I think LL might have changed his mind about going to bed!

so are you saying LL would have lost if he was debatin this on his own?

[Sledgejammer]

What is the ratio of Catalan population as a whole : members of FC Barcelona? You are talking about a football club at the end of the day.

But you're not. I just suggest reading up on your history at this stage Lloyd, The Camp Nou was the only place in the world where people could speak the language freely under Franco, a language outlawed by his regime. That alone should tell you alot. You seem to be questioning the link between the region and the club, and that is so far off it's insane. I could loan you a book if you want, one written by a Scotsman who had no axe to grind (And isn't 100% complimentary either) about this subject, the link between the club and the people. If you've any problems afterward then take it up with me then, because frankly it's a far more qualified source to talk about the subject than I could hope to be and it covers it all far more in-dept than the BBV would want to read. Suffice to say the club is inherently linked to the regions history. You're about the only person I've ever heard who's tried to argue against that. There's a reason why that is.

Honestly I don't care if you like the club or not, lots of people don't, but don't try and argue that they aren't a special case and are in many ways an entity that is so much more than a football club to certain people in a way very very few clubs are. That's all I'm arguing here. Not that the club is inherently good or morally superior to anything, it has had it's bad influences as much as anything

[eagle eye]

I am also sure a few of the top English clubs could stick a charity on their jersey if the TV money was shared as it is in Spain!

Opr

Out of left field there, afaiw the tv money is shared in England. Also you missed the post that Aston Villa also wear a logo that they are not paid to wear.

[CHDad]

I don't know CHD, I think he regrets posting that now, if he had waited one more minute I think he would have refrained from making that comment. Redzerdog just appeared like Batman with a huge article that might sway this debate back in favour of LL and Kayroo.

I think LL might have changed his mind about going to bed!

The introduction of redzerdog has thrown this wide open, Danger here. Borderline offside but it stands, stay with us here in BBV, and its liiiiiiiiiiive.

[eagle eye]

so are you saying LL would have lost if he was debatin this on his own?

Well its never over 'til the fat lady sings! He seemed to be lagging behind though for sure until Kayroo stepped in with a side swipe and then the caped crusader arrived with that epic post regarding the dark side of Barcelona with their links to a club in Asia.

[Opr]

Out of left field there, afaiw the tv money is shared in England. Also you missed the post that Aston Villa also wear a logo that they are not paid to wear.

Barcelona earned 14 times more in TV money than the bottom club last season. Man United earned just 1.7 times what the bottom club did in the Premier league last season.

Opr

[Solskjaer]

Should I mention the recent lovefest for Tiger Woods recently in this thread. Apart from being brillaint what has he done to deserve it. he has no divine right to win and yet his opponents are laughed at for daring to take him on. Nobody is perfect and barca certainly ain't, however they entertain the world , they give hope to their people and above all they are not ENTIRELY about money. If I want to be entertained I watch barca above all other teams, if i want the same in golf I watch the tiger in action. It's hyprocritical for people to pick the bones of barca and yet Tiger who used his own dead father to ignite his sponsorship is followed like the 2nd coming.


and that grinds my gears (Peter Griffen )

[Kayroo]

When have Barcelona claimed to be morally better than anyone? Produce evidence to back up your statement that they believe they are intrinsically superior to all other clubs Honestly, find a point and argue with it, don't create one and argue with it.

They are certainly unique, and what they mean to the people of their region is immeasurable, they are every bit Mes Que Un Club and can be that without comparing themselves to any other club. They've every right to mention their history and mention their place in the heart of a culture, very few other clubs exist in this way, that isn't Barcelonas fault, nor the fault of the other clubs nor does it make them morally inferior nor has anyone claimed it did.

I like Daire's post about the GAA and clubs in Eastern Europe in terms of the representation of a culture. It answers much of the 2nd part of your argument.

Just to put the first part of your post "in my terms" again, I was not constructing a straw man. I was referring back to the statements about playing football "the right way" that were made before the Arsenal game in particular and appeared in the Catalan press at that time. In a sense you are an example of what I mean about moral superiority. In every post you've made so far, more or less, you've spoken about their heroic struggle to defend a culture and how great they are as a result. That very well may be true, but Barcelona and their fans remind everyone of that fact far too often for my liking frankly.

Spain is a good Catholic country so let me illustrate my point with a biblical quote:

Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 6:1)

[Solskjaer]

Ted, I firmly beliece Kayroo has gone completely mad.



and its a good nighr from me

[LuckyLloyd]

But you're not. I just suggest reading up on your history at this stage Lloyd, The Camp Nou was the only place in the world where people could speak the language freely under Franco, a language outlawed by his regime. That alone should tell you alot. You seem to be questioning the link between the region and the club, and that is so far off it's insane. I could loan you a book if you want, one written by a Scotsman who had no axe to grind (And isn't 100% complimentary either) about this subject, the link between the club and the people. If you've any problems afterward then take it up with me then, because frankly it's a far more qualified source to talk about the subject than I could hope to be and it covers it all far more in-dept than the BBV would want to read. Suffice to say the club is inherently linked to the regions history. You're about the only person I've ever heard who's tried to argue against that. There's a reason why that is.

Listen, it might be a bit unfair for me to only mention this now but how and ever. I was over in Barcelona back in December visiting some friends. As someone with a strong interest in football I made a point of asking people about Barcelona whenever the opportunity arose. Lads into their football had loads to say (negative if they were Espanyol fans! ), those not into football just couldn't give a fuck. It was confirmed to me by my long standing Dublin mate that the general atmosphere in the city doesn't really change for a big Barca match anymore than it would for a Dublin GAA match. It's a sports club, and people who like sports dig it, those who don't ignore it.

Like any nation, the sense of being Catalan is so many more important things than a football team. For those who like football, for those who like the particular football club in question, they of course amplify the political / historical aspects of the club. And that's fine, but the club's position within Catalan society is not as gigantic as you make it out to be.

And that's before we thread over the lines of argument already fleshed out in this thread with respect to the disparity between the club's corporate image and corporate reality.

[Sledgejammer]

I like Daire's post about the GAA and clubs in Eastern Europe in terms of the representation of a culture. It answers much of the 2nd part of your argument.

Just to put the first part of your post "in my terms" again, I was not constructing a straw man. I was referring back to the statements about playing football "the right way" that were made before the Arsenal game in particular and appeared in the Catalan press at that time. In a sense you are an example of what I mean about moral superiority. In every post you've made so far, more or less, you've spoken about their heroic struggle to defend a culture and how great they are as a result. That very well may be true, but Barcelona and their fans remind everyone of that fact far too often for my liking frankly.

Spain is a good Catholic country so let me illustrate my point with a biblical quote:

Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 6:1)

If it is true than what is wrong with it? If I'm an example of it then find one post where I've mentioned it outside of this argument on this site, just one will do, can't be hard to find one since I always go on about it like everyone else...

I only did it in response to a claim made that it wasn't true. You accept it "may well be truer" so WHAT ARE YOU ARGUING AGAINST? Whether people go on about it or not isnt the argument here, it's one you've created yourself. I'm not the man to argue with since I don't even consider Barca my first team (It's not even close by the way) so if you wanna take that one up find some Barca fans.

[Sledgejammer]

Listen, it might be a bit unfair for me to only mention this now but how and ever. I was over in Barcelona back in December visiting some friends. As someone with a strong interest in football I made a point of asking people about Barcelona whenever the opportunity arose. Lads into their football had loads to say (negative if they were Espanyol fans! ), those not into football just couldn't give a fuck. It was confirmed to me by my long standing Dublin mate that the general atmosphere in the city doesn't really change for a big Barca match anymore than it would for a Dublin GAA match. It's a sports club, and people who like sports dig it, those who don't ignore it.

Like any nation, the sense of being Catalan is so many more important things than a football team. For those who like football, for those who like the particular football club in question, they of course amplify the political / historical aspects of the club. And that's fine, but the club's position within Catalan society is not as gigantic as you make it out to be.

And that's before we thread over the lines of argument already fleshed out in this thread with respect to the disparity between the club's corporate image and corporate reality.

So your argument boils down to talking to a few people? Hardy a big sample size, I'd imagine. Of course people not into football wont be fans, but you can't refuse to acknowledge the part it played in the history of the Catalan region was huge, and I'm sure even they wouldn't. Like I said this was the only place you could speak the language, display the flag etc, the impact it had in keeping the traditions, culture and language alive was very very important. This is widely acknowledged by people far more credible than you or I. That inherently links it to the culture.

[Kayroo]

If it is true than what is wrong with it? If I'm an example of it then find one post where I've mentioned it outside of this argument on this site, just one will do, can't be hard to find one since I always go on about it like everyone else...

I only did it in response to a claim made that it wasn't true. You accept it "may well be truer" so WHAT ARE YOU ARGUING AGAINST? Whether people go on about it or not isnt the argument here, it's one you've created yourself. I'm not the man to argue with since I don't even consider Barca my first team (It's not even close by the way) so if you wanna take that one up find some Barca fans.

Point I was responding to: Barcelona do not deserve to have the sense of self-importance that they do. This is the point you took Lloyd up on and the one I am trying to argue.

I never said you went on about it. I never claimed you were a fan. I simply stated your posts on this topic had seemed to use Barcelona's past as a means to demonstrate how much more than a football club they are. Ultimately, they are just a football club and if they represent more to their fans then so be it but they are just a football club.

I don't care about the history of Barcelona. It doesn't give them the right to carry the sense of importance they do. That has always been the crux of this argument. I am unsure as to why you seem unable to grasp that.

[LuckyLloyd]

So your argument boils down to talking to a few people? Hardy a big sample size, I'd imagine. Of course people not into football wont be fans, but you can't refuse to acknowledge the part it played in the history of the Catalan region was huge, and I'm sure even they wouldn't. Like I said this was the only place you could speak the language, display the flag etc, the impact it had in keeping the traditions, culture and language alive was very very important. This is widely acknowledged by people far more credible than you or I. That inherently links it to the culture.

Yeah sample size of course, but a sample size of politically active people with a strong sense of being Catalan first and Spanish second.

As for the rest, I have not been arguing against the club's history. My argument is against the idea that today it is more than a football club, and can claim a place in society the likes of which no other club in Europe / the world can touch. Of course it is linked to Catalan culture in the same way that the marquee sports clubs / organizations (Bloody Sunday anyone?) of other troubled cities are. But it does not come close to defining that culture, and whether it be your intention or not in this debate - a read of your posts could be taken as an attempt to confer such lofty status upon what is ultimately a football club.

[Sledgejammer]

Point I was responding to: Barcelona do not deserve to have the sense of self-importance that they do. This is the point you took Lloyd up on and the one I am trying to argue.

I never said you went on about it. I never claimed you were a fan. I simply stated your posts on this topic had seemed to use Barcelona's past as a means to demonstrate how much more than a football club they are. Ultimately, they are just a football club and if they represent more to their fans then so be it but they are just a football club.

I don't care about the history of Barcelona. It doesn't give them the right to carry the sense of importance they do. That has always been the crux of this argument. I am unsure as to why you seem unable to grasp that.

The importance they carry comes from the importance placed upon them by their members and the role they played in history. Therefore it is deserved, it isn't made up, it's there because of their history. They are more than a club in the sense that they became an icon and symbol for something during a difficult era in their regions history. Are you disputing that they did? Whether they harp on about it or not isn't the issue, they earned a sense of importance for the people of the region during that period, the Camp Nou became a place to speak the language and wave the flags. Josep Sunyol, a president of the club, became a martyr of the people in this era. The club is inherently linked to the history of the region. The club is a part of the reason why the culture survived the Franco era. This isn't really disuputed. That makes them more than a football club. What part of that, if any, do you dispute?

Honestly this must be the most boring section in the history of both BBVs, it's an argument of semantics, but f-ck it.

[Sledgejammer]

Yeah sample size of course, but a sample size of politically active people with a strong sense of being Catalan first and Spanish second.

As for the rest, I have not been arguing against the club's history. My argument is against the idea that today it is more than a football club, and can claim a place in society the likes of which no other club in Europe / the world can touch. Of course it is linked to Catalan culture in the same way that the marquee sports clubs / organizations (Bloody Sunday anyone?) of other troubled cities are. But it does not come close to defining that culture, and whether it be your intention or not in this debate - a read of your posts could be taken as an attempt to confer such lofty status upon what is ultimately a football club.

Well they weren't, I explicitly said I can't speak for the Catalan people nor would I attempt to. I'm merely pointed out the things I pointed out in my previous post here. Ofc it doesn't define their culture, but it is part of it in a way that is very VERY unique for a football club. Hence their motto, which is justified.

[LuckyLloyd]

Should I mention the recent lovefest for Tiger Woods recently in this thread. Apart from being brillaint what has he done to deserve it. he has no divine right to win and yet his opponents are laughed at for daring to take him on. Nobody is perfect and barca certainly ain't, however they entertain the world , they give hope to their people and above all they are not ENTIRELY about money. If I want to be entertained I watch barca above all other teams, if i want the same in golf I watch the tiger in action. It's hyprocritical for people to pick the bones of barca and yet Tiger who used his own dead father to ignite his sponsorship is followed like the 2nd coming.


and that grinds my gears (Peter Griffen )

There is a marked difference here in that the likes of The C Kid and I (i.e. the resident Tiger fanboys) don't bother defending his transgressions or holding him up as some sort of model for moral behaviour. It's just what he does on the course that interests me, and if it was just what Barca do on the pitch that interested their fans on here there would be no string of posts on the topic tonight.

[Kayroo]

The importance they carry comes from the importance placed upon them by their members and the role they played in history. Therefore it is deserved, it isn't made up, it's there because of their history. They are more than a club in the sense that they became an icon and symbol for something during a difficult era in their regions history. Are you disputing that they did? Whether they harp on about it or not isn't the issue, they earned a sense of importance for the people of the region during that period, the Camp Nou became a place to speak the language and wave the flags. Josep Sunyol, a president of the club, became a martyr of the people in this era. The club is inherently linked to the history of the region. The club is a part of the reason why the culture survived the Franco era. This isn't really disuputed. That makes them more than a football club. What part of that, if any, do you dispute?

Honestly this must be the most boring section in the history of both BBVs, it's an argument of semantics, but f-ck it.

Barcelona is just a football club. No better or worse than any other outside the normal week to week fluctuations of the game.

I'm delighted that some, and I cannot corroborate or dispute Lloyd's contentions on this issue, Catalonians find it a great source of pride and the bastion of their culture. That does not make the club itself somehow more than just a football club. It may have once been more than that, but not anymore. Regardless of if it ever was or not, that does not make it more than just a football club now.


On a side note I find it somewhat ironic that they find their culture protected by a club established to compete at a non-native game but nonetheless.

[LuckyLloyd]

Well they weren't, I explicitly said I can't speak for the Catalan people nor would I attempt to. I'm merely pointed out the things I pointed out in my previous post here. Ofc it doesn't define their culture, but it is part of it in a way that is very VERY unique for a football club. Hence their motto, which is justified.

Would you say that today the GAA are "more than a sports organisation"?

[MegaSin]

Was goona post that but to be honest getting dragged into this debate at this hour would be very bad.

Also a Boxing club that gets kids off the streets is also more then just a boxing club and it help the community. No?

[LuckyLloyd]

Also a Boxing club that gets kids off the streets is also more then just a boxing club and it help the community. No?

Mes Que Un Club

imo

[Sledgejammer]

Would you say that today the GAA are "more than a sports organisation"?

I don't know as much on the history of the GAA (Shame on me, I guess), but they almost certainly are to many people, yes. In fact I doubt many people would deny they are more than just a sports organisation. Look at the amount of people involved volunteering at the grassroots level, people who aren't all that interested in the sport for the sports sake. I've no time for the sport itself as I find it very boring but I wouldn't attempt to dispute that, the same way I've no desire here to say you'd be wrong for dancing on the graves of Barcelona's champions league dreams tonight if you simply don't like this team.

I, like I said, think this is a semantic argument, which has become completely pointless and is mainly you trying to save face and not wanting to lose an online argument on the BBV, but if that's your bag, fair enough. I believe that the ownership structure and the history of the club make it more to many people than simply a football club, it represents so many things outside of football and continues to do so, it was and is a symbol of so much more than simply what happens on the pitch. It's part in the history of the region is almost unparalleled to any other sporting entity that I know of at least, and in these ways it is truly unique as a football club with very few exceptions. This, to me and others, makes it more than a club. Maybe the saying doesn't sit well with you, but like I said I think you're making it a semantic argument with that...There's no denying the uniqueness of the club and it's historical standing. Put it this way, how many other clubs would feature so heavily in a book written simply on the recent history of a region? In that way it is special.

[Opr]

There is a marked difference here in that the likes of The C Kid and I (i.e. the resident Tiger fanboys) don't bother defending his transgressions or holding him up as some sort of model for moral behaviour. It's just what he does on the course that interests me, and if it was just what Barca do on the pitch that interested their fans on here there would be no string of posts on the topic tonight.

This is exactly the point. I mean I enjoy watching Barcelona do their stuff as I am sure everyone does when they are on song. Its the holding them up as a paragon of all that is right with how to run a football club that annoys me.

Opr

[eagle eye]

Well CHD, it seems like Sledgehammer is finishing up and he put up a great show. After Redzerdog came in I thought he would lose it for sure but the sudden appearance of Solskjaer with his outside the box approach had a huge affect in my opinion. I would also deduct points from both LL and Kayroo for constantly punching home the false point that Barcelona is just a football when we all know that its actually a sports club with a rich tradition in many sports outside of football.

I think its all tied, over to you CHD for the final word!

[Kayroo]

I don't know as much on the history of the GAA (Shame on me, I guess), but they almost certainly are to many people, yes. In fact I doubt many people would deny they are more than just a sports organisation. Look at the amount of people involved volunteering at the grassroots level, people who aren't all that interested in the sport for the sports sake. I've no time for the sport itself as I find it very boring but I wouldn't attempt to dispute that, the same way I've no desire here to say you'd be wrong for dancing on the graves of Barcelona's champions league dreams tonight if you simply don't like this team.

I, like I said, think this is a semantic argument, which has become completely pointless and is mainly you trying to save face and not wanting to lose an online argument on the BBV, but if that's your bag, fair enough. I believe that the ownership structure and the history of the club make it more to many people than simply a football club, it represents so many things outside of football and continues to do so, it was and is a symbol of so much more than simply what happens on the pitch. It's part in the history of the region is almost unparalleled to any other sporting entity that I know of at least, and in these ways it is truly unique as a football club with very few exceptions. This, to me and others, makes it more than a club. Maybe the saying doesn't sit well with you, but like I said I think you're making it a semantic argument with that...There's no denying the uniqueness of the club and it's historical standing. Put it this way, how many other clubs would feature so heavily in a book written simply on the recent history of a region? In that way it is special.

I'm more or less done here as you just keep spouting the same things about Barcelona over and over without engaging about the issue of self-importance which was the catalyst for the whole thing. You might be right, honestly I'm too tired to care.

However, the part I have highlighted in the above post is petty, childish, churlish and utterly reprehensible. You were engaged in debate about a topic and have made negative aspersions about both myself and Lloyd (for me you made a snide remark about my abilities as a lawyer, for Lloyd you are saying he is just stubborn and prideful) that I find frankly insulting.

Wrong or right on these issues, and there may be elements of both on your side and on mine, to resort to this sort of tactic is just pathetic. Grow up.

[Kayroo]

Ha, maybe so Noel, but he pissed me right off with that shite.

[LuckyLloyd]

I don't know as much on the history of the GAA (Shame on me, I guess), but they almost certainly are to many people, yes. In fact I doubt many people would deny they are more than just a sports organisation. Look at the amount of people involved volunteering at the grassroots level, people who aren't all that interested in the sport for the sports sake. I've no time for the sport itself as I find it very boring but I wouldn't attempt to dispute that, the same way I've no desire here to say you'd be wrong for dancing on the graves of Barcelona's champions league dreams tonight if you simply don't like this team.

I, like I said, think this is a semantic argument, which has become completely pointless and is mainly you trying to save face and not wanting to lose an online argument on the BBV, but if that's your bag, fair enough. I believe that the ownership structure and the history of the club make it more to many people than simply a football club, it represents so many things outside of football and continues to do so, it was and is a symbol of so much more than simply what happens on the pitch. It's part in the history of the region is almost unparalleled to any other sporting entity that I know of at least, and in these ways it is truly unique as a football club with very few exceptions. This, to me and others, makes it more than a club. Maybe the saying doesn't sit well with you, but like I said I think you're making it a semantic argument with that...There's no denying the uniqueness of the club and it's historical standing. Put it this way, how many other clubs would feature so heavily in a book written simply on the recent history of a region? In that way it is special.

Oh dear:

[72over]

[eagle eye]

Epic post!

[Sledgejammer]

I'm more or less done here as you just keep spouting the same things about Barcelona over and over without engaging about the issue of self-importance which was the catalyst for the whole thing. You might be right, honestly I'm too tired to care.

However, the part I have highlighted in the above post is petty, childish, churlish and utterly reprehensible. You were engaged in debate about a topic and have made negative aspersions about both myself and Lloyd (for me you made a snide remark about my abilities as a lawyer, for Lloyd you are saying he is just stubborn and prideful) that I find frankly insulting.

Wrong or right on these issues, and there may be elements of both on your side and on mine, to resort to this sort of tactic is just pathetic. Grow up.

The laywer comment was tongue in cheek Keith. In all seriousness, obviously have no clue what you'd be like as a laywer, it was obviously taking the p-ss, Keith. I wont get into tit for tat here, but I remember you saying far worse. If I offended you I genuinely apologise.

The comment about Lloyd is somewhat backed up by his latest reply, in my opinion of course, if that isn't an attempt to go ftw rather than an attempt to have a debate and come to a conclusion, what is? If you think I may be right and don't care, why did you continue to involve yourself in this, out of interest? I'm not asking with any intent here, I'm genuinely curious why someone would argue with someone who they think is probably correct and they don't care about the issue anyway?

I really don't wanna bore the BBV anymore. If you both wanna carry thisonp do it over PM, nobody else cares.

[Hectorjelly]

Barcelona play the most attractive game in Europe, have some of the very best players in the world and last year won every single competition they entered. If that doesn't make them special then I don't know what does.

Fair play to Inter they played well.

[LuckyLloyd]

The laywer comment was tongue in cheek Keith. In all seriousness, obviously have no clue what you'd be like as a laywer, it was obviously taking the p-ss, Keith. I wont get into tit for tat here, but I remember you saying far worse. If I offended you I genuinely apologise.

The comment about Lloyd is somewhat backed up by his latest reply, in my opinion of course, if that isn't an attempt to go ftw rather than an attempt to have a debate and come to a conclusion, what is? If you think I may be right and don't care, why did you continue to involve yourself in this, out of interest? I'm not asking with any intent here, I'm genuinely curious why someone would argue with someone who they think is probably correct and they don't care about the issue anyway?

I really don't wanna bore the BBV anymore. If you both wanna carry thisonp do it over PM, nobody else cares.

Ah jaysus, that's two posts in a row now!! I mean, I wouldn't / couldn't claim to not be "from the Internet" to some extent at least given the time I spend on various forums, but I think my posting history stands up as fairly genuine! There is no winner here, and the minute you resort to personal jibes in this sort of conversation there really is no point. Over the previous couple of hours there wasn't a single personal barb traded between the two of us.

We'll just have to agree to disagree / no hard feelings, etc.

[Sledgejammer]

It was an observation, not meant to be personal, Lloyd. I wasn't putting you down as such, simply trying to put perspective on the argument. But yeah, sounds good to me

[CHDad]

Well CHD, it seems like Sledgehammer is finishing up and he put up a great show. After Redzerdog came in I thought he would lose it for sure but the sudden appearance of Solskjaer with his outside the box approach had a huge affect in my opinion. I would also deduct points from both LL and Kayroo for constantly punching home the false point that Barcelona is just a football when we all know that its actually a sports club with a rich tradition in many sports outside of football.

I think its all tied, over to you CHD for the final word!

I am dizzy after the circles we have gone through following this debate. I score it 9-8 to Lloyd, I deducted a point from Sledgejammer because of the little digs, kinda like Busquets tonight. Typical that anything that involves Spain involves dirty angleshooting to try win.

Til next time!

[Sledgejammer]

I am dizzy after the circles we have gone through following this debate. I score it 9-8 to Lloyd, I deducted a point from Sledgejammer because of the little digs, kinda like Busquets tonight. Typical that anything that involves Spain involves dirty angleshooting to try win.

Til next time!

Typical biased officiating here imo

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMyAh-8XtR8[/ame]

[eagle eye]

I am dizzy after the circles we have gone through following this debate. I score it 9-8 to Lloyd, I deducted a point from Sledgejammer because of the little digs, kinda like Busquets tonight. Typical that anything that involves Spain involves dirty angleshooting to try win.

Til next time!

[Opr]

The skies getting back in action.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6BKdHEPmFA[/ame]

Opr

[Mellor]

1st place money, last place money Noel?