Banner Ad

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

"Service Charge"! WTF

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    "Service Charge"! WTF

    I see there was a question asked in the thread re the upcoming GGMasters 100K about what the rake would be in the cash games.

    The answer given was "5% capped at €12" which is fair enough and that there was a "service charge" of €1 on all pots of €20 or over". What the Fcuk is a SERVICE CHARGE? Is this the new way that we players are going to be fleeced? Has anyone come across this before?

    #2
    All "Irish Poker Series" Events for last 18? months at least.

    Clearly advertised.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Arazi View Post
      I see there was a question asked in the thread re the upcoming GGMasters 100K about what the rake would be in the cash games.

      The answer given was "5% capped at €12" which is fair enough and that there was a "service charge" of €1 on all pots of €20 or over". What the Fcuk is a SERVICE CHARGE? Is this the new way that we players are going to be fleeced? Has anyone come across this before?
      Yeah Larry introduced it at his festivals a few years ago. It gets added to the dealers tip pool. Load of bollix but 90% of players don't realise/care

      Comment


        #4
        that's criminal

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by limpwhacker View Post
          Yeah Larry introduced it at his festivals a few years ago. It gets added to the dealers tip pool. Load of bollix but 90% of players don't realise/care
          More care id say.

          Majority of Irish Events are small buyin multi re-entry day 1 recreational player weekends with players away for fun/drinks/poker and when they bust its a few hours at the bar or cash tables with friends. As long as organisers arent taking the proverbial they dont mind as its disposable income and tbf the tourney reg fees arent gonna cut a propervwage for dealers and some organisers must feel the tips arent looking fter the dealers either.

          Its not all 10/20 PLO.

          I wouldnt be the most prolific cash player at these games bht have no probs. Now im sure if it was brought into the bigger cash games in Ireland it would be a different issue.

          Comment


            #6
            A service charge is necessary these days because many players don't tip, and dealers rely on tips to earn anything approaching a living wage. At least a service charge means everyone pays an equal amount. There are many things wrong with the current system but this isn't one of them. I'd imagine within a few years it will be standard practice everywhere.

            Comment


              #7
              more rake is better

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                A service charge is necessary these days because many players don't tip, and dealers rely on tips to earn anything approaching a living wage. At least a service charge means everyone pays an equal amount. There are many things wrong with the current system but this isn't one of them. I'd imagine within a few years it will be standard practice everywhere.
                Doesn't help matters when the dealer only receives 40c from every euro tipped.

                Its got to be the norm now, 3% removed from prize pools yet the pint glass with tips and happy face drawn on it is still sitting on the table when the money is being counted out.

                1 euro service charge taken out but no dealer every says "its ok i have already been tipped" when someone tips that is not aware of it.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by sinnerboy View Post
                  Doesn't help matters when the dealer only receives 40c from every euro tipped.
                  Do you know this for a fact? I'm almost certain this question was asked on a tournament thread before and the answer was every single euro was going into the dealer tip pool. Be pretty sick if they're only getting 40%.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                    A service charge is necessary these days because many players don't tip, and dealers rely on tips to earn anything approaching a living wage. At least a service charge means everyone pays an equal amount. There are many things wrong with the current system but this isn't one of them. I'd imagine within a few years it will be standard practice everywhere.
                    This is surely a level.

                    So on a €20 pot this guy is taking €2, ie 10%.
                    Not only that but possibly we have put €10 of that €20 into the pot ourselves so the “rake and service charge” is 20% of our winnings.

                    Like I said criminal.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      That is a very good point. I imagine the majority of promoters put all the tips into the tip pools, but you are crazy if you think that in an unregulated industry with cash lying around the organisers are always honest. If you play poker in Ireland you have definitely been stolen from and cheated out of money. Probably regularly.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by dobby View Post
                        Do you know this for a fact? I'm almost certain this question was asked on a tournament thread before and the answer was every single euro was going into the dealer tip pool. Be pretty sick if they're only getting 40%.
                        What people say in public and what happens behind closed doors won't always tally

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by dobby View Post
                          Do you know this for a fact? I'm almost certain this question was asked on a tournament thread before and the answer was every single euro was going into the dealer tip pool. Be pretty sick if they're only getting 40%.

                          I know that dealers have to sign a contract and part of that contract is that they receive 40% of the tips.

                          It maybe a case that there are more than dealers getting paid from the pool, i.e floor staff security etc.

                          It may also be the case that floor staff receive a ratio of tips that is higher than the dealers.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by sinnerboy View Post
                            I know that dealers have to sign a contract and part of that contract is that they receive 40% of the tips.

                            It maybe a case that there are more than dealers getting paid from the pool, i.e floor staff security etc.

                            It may also be the case that floor staff receive a ratio of tips that is higher than the dealers.
                            The first I've ever heard of a contract for a casual job. I've dealt almost every game and festival in Ireland and never once signed a contract. I've also never had a problem with tips bar one operator about 10 years ago who no longer runs games.

                            Would love to know how you came about this "information" about any contracts.

                            Edit to add that floor staff etc have been part of the tip pool for as long as I can remember now which is fair imo, they often put in more hours than a dealer which is why it might seem like they're getting more. Tips are always divided up and distributed according to how many hours you did.
                            Last edited by dobby; 23-03-19, 11:13.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by sinnerboy View Post
                              I know that dealers have to sign a contract and part of that contract is that they receive 40% of the tips.

                              It maybe a case that there are more than dealers getting paid from the pool, i.e floor staff security etc.

                              It may also be the case that floor staff receive a ratio of tips that is higher than the dealers.
                              Where?
                              €10,000 GTD New Monthly Tournament
                              Village Green Card Club, Last Thursday of the Month, €270 Freezeout
                              €1,000,000 GTD - Irish Open
                              CityWest Hotel, 6th-13th April

                              Comment


                                #16
                                Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                That is a very good point. I imagine the majority of promoters put all the tips into the tip pools, but you are crazy if you think that in an unregulated industry with cash lying around the organisers are always honest. If you play poker in Ireland you have definitely been stolen from and cheated out of money. Probably regularly.
                                Very poor statement from a well respected member of the Irish Poker community.

                                As has been highlighted above by dobby one such operator was suspected of keeping tips several years ago and that operator is no longer in business.

                                Can you please provide examples of current operators who are stealing from their customers on a regular basis!
                                €10,000 GTD New Monthly Tournament
                                Village Green Card Club, Last Thursday of the Month, €270 Freezeout
                                €1,000,000 GTD - Irish Open
                                CityWest Hotel, 6th-13th April

                                Comment


                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                  Very poor statement from a well respected member of the Irish Poker community.

                                  As has been highlighted above by dobby one such operator was suspected of keeping tips several years ago and that operator is no longer in business.

                                  Can you please provide examples of current operators who are stealing from their customers on a regular basis!
                                  Did that operator face jail time? Did he receive any punishment?

                                  The Irish poker world has no regulator. No-one checking are operators/casinos operating according to the law, or ethically. In these circumstances its naive to think that everything is done above board. I'm sure many operators do act ethically, and having played many times in the village green, I would trust that your operations are always run very well. But the current situation city wide is very far from ideal.

                                  In Ireland there is almost never oversight of dealers, and the best practices that other jurisdictions have evolved to reduce the risks of dealers cheating are completely ignored. I played a €500 euro event about two years ago and the dealer wasn't cutting the deck. I don't think it was malicious, but it was a good example of the standard of oversight and training the typical dealer receives. So, if the dealers are free to do what they want, a certain percentage of them will be stealing and cheating, probably both from the customers and from the operator themselves.

                                  The security procedures in tournaments here are much worse than abroad. Players manage to cheat at the WSOP, so its unlikely it isn't happening here too.

                                  In Ireland dealers typically take the rake from pots surreptitiously, not leaving the customer the opportunity to work out if they have been raked correctly. Can you imagine this happening in any other business! So they are almost certainly taking too much. I would imagine sometimes on their own accord, sometimes at their supervisors volition (which I have heard several times from dealers). Customers are often discouraged to enquire about the rake. There are places here that change the rake structure depending on the time of night. That's fine, except they keep it secret so its actually breaking the law.

                                  Comment


                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                    Did that operator face jail time? Did he receive any punishment?

                                    The Irish poker world has no regulator. No-one checking are operators/casinos operating according to the law, or ethically. In these circumstances its naive to think that everything is done above board. I'm sure many operators do act ethically, and having played many times in the village green, I would trust that your operations are always run very well. But the current situation city wide is very far from ideal.

                                    In Ireland there is almost never oversight of dealers, and the best practices that other jurisdictions have evolved to reduce the risks of dealers cheating are completely ignored. I played a €500 euro event about two years ago and the dealer wasn't cutting the deck. I don't think it was malicious, but it was a good example of the standard of oversight and training the typical dealer receives. So, if the dealers are free to do what they want, a certain percentage of them will be stealing and cheating, probably both from the customers and from the operator themselves.

                                    The security procedures in tournaments here are much worse than abroad. Players manage to cheat at the WSOP, so its unlikely it isn't happening here too.

                                    In Ireland dealers typically take the rake from pots surreptitiously, not leaving the customer the opportunity to work out if they have been raked correctly. Can you imagine this happening in any other business! So they are almost certainly taking too much. I would imagine sometimes on their own accord, sometimes at their supervisors volition (which I have heard several times from dealers). Customers are often discouraged to enquire about the rake. There are places here that change the rake structure depending on the time of night. That's fine, except they keep it secret so its actually breaking the law.
                                    Does all this go on in the fitz also?

                                    That's not a dig, it's a genuine question because I know you work there and I haven't played in the fitz for about 12 years

                                    Comment


                                      #19
                                      Looks like there’s not to many pots to take a service charge out of in city north, I’d say some players voted with their feet and didn’t attend.
                                      location green and yellow stretford end

                                      Comment


                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by kaiser soze View Post
                                        Looks like there’s not to many pots to take a service charge out of in city north, I’d say some players voted with their feet and didn’t attend.
                                        Its highly unlikely that players didn’t play the tournament because of a €1 service charge in the cash games.

                                        Comment


                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Donk Magnet View Post
                                          Its highly unlikely that players didn’t play the tournament because of a €1 service charge in the cash games.
                                          Yeah your right, id also say it contributes to the overall numbers at the event being down. I know cash players who were going out to play and saw this charge and said fuck that I’m not bothering.
                                          location green and yellow stretford end

                                          Comment


                                            #22
                                            The same thread or conversation pops up once every 6 months or so. No issues at all with the conversation, but the correlation between those complaining about an increased service charge and those who kick off when the standard of dealing goes to shit is huge.

                                            You can have one stance only. Either pay for a decent standard of dealer or accept that the good dealers will simply accept jobs elsewhere or move on from poker. It’s infuriating to think you can pay them the bare minimum and think dealers will just accept that’s the way it is.

                                            Comment


                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by LTL View Post
                                              The same thread or conversation pops up once every 6 months or so. No issues at all with the conversation, but the correlation between those complaining about an increased service charge and those who kick off when the standard of dealing goes to shit is huge.

                                              You can have one stance only. Either pay for a decent standard of dealer or accept that the good dealers will simply accept jobs elsewhere or move on from poker. It’s infuriating to think you can pay them the bare minimum and think dealers will just accept that’s the way it is.
                                              Further to that point.

                                              It's becoming increasingly more difficult to find local freelance poker dealers, nevermind good ones.

                                              With ever increasing cost of accommodation in Dublin and lets call a spade a spade shit weather more and more good freelance poker dealers who used to live in Dublin have over the past number of years moved to countries with better weather and cheaper accommodation costs.

                                              At the recent partypoker Grand Prix in the Green Isle Hotel, we had 47 or 48 of 53 dealers in accommodation because their simply isn't enough local freelance dealers in Dublin.

                                              Compare that to when I used to run the Mini WSOP in Maldron Hotel back in the day and I would have had about 1/3 of the dealers in accommodation.

                                              On tournaments with €20 reg fee, it's impossible to house so many staff, provide a good structure game that players are happy with, and cover the ever increasing costs.

                                              As a result we've cancelled our June edition of the partypoker GP as having 2 x €100k GTD tournament is such a short period of time isn't a viable option.

                                              Unfortunately for players I think we will see a reduction in small buy-in tournaments over the 18 months or at least a reduction in smaller buy-in tournaments held in hotels.
                                              Last edited by JP Poker; 26-03-19, 01:15.
                                              €10,000 GTD New Monthly Tournament
                                              Village Green Card Club, Last Thursday of the Month, €270 Freezeout
                                              €1,000,000 GTD - Irish Open
                                              CityWest Hotel, 6th-13th April

                                              Comment


                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Hectorjelly View Post
                                                Did that operator face jail time? Did he receive any punishment?

                                                The Irish poker world has no regulator. No-one checking are operators/casinos operating according to the law, or ethically. In these circumstances its naive to think that everything is done above board. I'm sure many operators do act ethically, and having played many times in the village green, I would trust that your operations are always run very well. But the current situation city wide is very far from ideal.

                                                In Ireland there is almost never oversight of dealers, and the best practices that other jurisdictions have evolved to reduce the risks of dealers cheating are completely ignored. I played a €500 euro event about two years ago and the dealer wasn't cutting the deck. I don't think it was malicious, but it was a good example of the standard of oversight and training the typical dealer receives. So, if the dealers are free to do what they want, a certain percentage of them will be stealing and cheating, probably both from the customers and from the operator themselves.

                                                The security procedures in tournaments here are much worse than abroad. Players manage to cheat at the WSOP, so its unlikely it isn't happening here too.

                                                In Ireland dealers typically take the rake from pots surreptitiously, not leaving the customer the opportunity to work out if they have been raked correctly. Can you imagine this happening in any other business! So they are almost certainly taking too much. I would imagine sometimes on their own accord, sometimes at their supervisors volition (which I have heard several times from dealers). Customers are often discouraged to enquire about the rake. There are places here that change the rake structure depending on the time of night. That's fine, except they keep it secret so its actually breaking the law.
                                                Like I said this person was suspected by some staff of keeping some of their tips.

                                                And the staff stopped working for this person.

                                                Last I checked, we still lived in world where people don't serve jail time unless they are convicted of something that justifies jail time.

                                                Your first post implies that because we are working in an unregulated industry operators are stealing from staff and players alike which just isn't the case at all.

                                                Yes during the poker boom there certainly where some operators who took advantage of the "unregulated" market and lined their own pockets more.

                                                I left a career in finance whilst studying for my Masters at night to start running poker event because I was at one such event that the operator basically stole money from the prize pool. That was 15 years ago and i think through both the old boards.ie and IPB tournament charter players have become more educated and that sort of nonsense doesn't happen anymore.


                                                With regards to dealer training ect in Ireland. If you compare this to the UK model where you have to have a licence to work in a casino and in order to get your licence you have to pay (£950 i think it is) to go on a course and get proper training.

                                                Nick O'Hora tried running training courses here a number of years ago but because the market isn't regulated no one was interested in paying a fee for a course that wasn't compulsory.

                                                Am I naive to think staff haven't stolen from me over the years, of course not! Any business that has cash will always have an element of stealing as greed is a powerful force.

                                                Each year I catch someone stealing rake on the cash tables during one of my festivals.

                                                But that's staff stealing from operators, not operators stealing from players as you implied.

                                                Rake in almost every card club and at almost every poker festival in the country is a standard x% capped at x€ and I would imagine most players these days know what rake they are paying. If not they can always ask the dealer or floor person and then player will know if they are being over raked.
                                                €10,000 GTD New Monthly Tournament
                                                Village Green Card Club, Last Thursday of the Month, €270 Freezeout
                                                €1,000,000 GTD - Irish Open
                                                CityWest Hotel, 6th-13th April

                                                Comment


                                                  #25
                                                  Interesting replies (all aimed at HJ's comments rather than the topic at hand) but it still doesn't negate the fact that an operator taking a "service charge" from every pot over €20 (which in 1/2 live games is most pots) is a disgrace and deserving of no business from players.

                                                  This shit needs to be called out and highlighted before it becomes common and widespread.

                                                  Comment


                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Arazi View Post
                                                    Interesting replies (all aimed at HJ's comments rather than the topic at hand) but it still doesn't negate the fact that an operator taking a "service charge" from every pot over €20 (which in 1/2 live games is most pots) is a disgrace and deserving of no business from players.

                                                    This shit needs to be called out and highlighted before it becomes common and widespread.
                                                    Personally I'm not a fan of the service charge.

                                                    I see why players don't like and understand why the operators who ran the game at weekend have the service charge in place.


                                                    How many industries are there that the cost of the service has remained more or less the same price for the same service now compared to 10 years ago?

                                                    I don't think there are many!
                                                    The Irish Open for example, Reg fee is now almost 1/3 what it was!
                                                    With a better structure at that.

                                                    I would go as far as to say there isn't another single industry out there that is as labour intensive as the poker industry is, which by the time you factor in security, Registration, Cash Desk, tournament directors, dealer co-orinators, Chip Controlors, set-up team, media team, event team and of course dealers, you have on average 1 staff member for max 7 customers.

                                                    Players don't want the Reg fees to go up but staff need to be paid, cost of living go up year on year.

                                                    Players are tipping less and less, the money has to come from somewhere if players want these poker festivals to continue, because without staff willing to work the event at a fair wage there will be no tournaments.

                                                    I've already mentioned we've cancelled an event we had scheduled to run in June because we didn't cover all our cost at a tournament that had 1200+ players play the main event.
                                                    Last edited by JP Poker; 26-03-19, 01:35.
                                                    €10,000 GTD New Monthly Tournament
                                                    Village Green Card Club, Last Thursday of the Month, €270 Freezeout
                                                    €1,000,000 GTD - Irish Open
                                                    CityWest Hotel, 6th-13th April

                                                    Comment


                                                      #27
                                                      Thanks for the reply and particularly for your own views on this "service charge", personally I can't actually get over the use of the term.


                                                      On the "cost of playing" poker (rake and reg fees), I'm not going to use the term cost of service as it's not our costs it's yours its my opinion that you need to look at the space that you are in, its the gambling space - that's the dollar you are competing for.

                                                      In this space the "cost of playing" has done nothing but come down. Betting tax (at least in the punters eyes) was abolished 20 some years ago, daily offers & money back are making it harder to lose, competition is fierce and margins are getting tighter, customers have never ever had it so good.


                                                      And then there's an operator competing for the same dollar who has the audacity to "in my opinion" sneakily charge a "service charge" - and I say that as I have played cash at a number of their festivals and have tipped as I always did and I was never told that the pot had already been milked.

                                                      Comment


                                                        #28
                                                        I get your point that player have a certain amount of €€€ to spend whether that be on horse, lotto, poker etc etc

                                                        But tbf your not comparing like for like.

                                                        You can't compare the cost to an online book maker for their customer to place a bet online for example to the cost of live poker operator.

                                                        Like I've said above I'm not a fan of the service charge but it does need to come from somewhere.

                                                        Whether that be higher rake I.e. 5% capped at €15 or higher (again cash game rake was at this point across the board not to long ago) or indeed increased tournament Reg fee's etc

                                                        Like I mentioned above already I cancelled a tournament in June which most likely would have gotten 1200-1500 players because it's not economically viable to run 2 of these events within 6/7 weeks of each other.

                                                        In 2020, I think we will see less of these €100 buy-in tournaments as the reg fee of €20 just doesn't cover the wage bill never mind the rest of the ex's.
                                                        €10,000 GTD New Monthly Tournament
                                                        Village Green Card Club, Last Thursday of the Month, €270 Freezeout
                                                        €1,000,000 GTD - Irish Open
                                                        CityWest Hotel, 6th-13th April

                                                        Comment


                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                          Very poor statement from a well respected member of the Irish Poker community.

                                                          As has been highlighted above by dobby one such operator was suspected of keeping tips several years ago and that operator is no longer in business.

                                                          Can you please provide examples of current operators who are stealing from their customers on a regular basis!
                                                          I would just like to point out that whilst working for JP, having worked for two other operators previously, the amount of tips I received after a festival of similar size and time was literally multiples higher. I have nothing but confidence in his integrity.

                                                          Comment


                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                            Like I mentioned above already I cancelled a tournament in June which most likely would have gotten 1200-1500 players because it's not economically viable to run 2 of these events within 6/7 weeks of each other.
                                                            Just out of interest, genuinely have no idea on costs of running a poker tournament, what are the extra costs involved in running tournaments six weeks apart compared to six months apart?

                                                            Comment


                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by *PocketRockets* View Post
                                                              Just out of interest, genuinely have no idea on costs of running a poker tournament, what are the extra costs involved in running tournaments six weeks apart compared to six months apart?
                                                              There's no extra costs!

                                                              However a lot of players can't afford to play both. Hence numbers are down for one or both event, resulting in costs not been covered.

                                                              It's better for everyone concerned to concentrate on just one event every 3 months instead of every 6 weeks and make those events bigger events.
                                                              €10,000 GTD New Monthly Tournament
                                                              Village Green Card Club, Last Thursday of the Month, €270 Freezeout
                                                              €1,000,000 GTD - Irish Open
                                                              CityWest Hotel, 6th-13th April

                                                              Comment


                                                                #32
                                                                Can’t get good degens in this country eh.

                                                                Fair point, thanks.

                                                                Comment


                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by dobby View Post
                                                                  Does all this go on in the fitz also?

                                                                  That's not a dig, it's a genuine question because I know you work there and I haven't played in the fitz for about 12 years
                                                                  tumbleweed
                                                                  "The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity."

                                                                  Comment


                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by Theresa View Post
                                                                    tumbleweed
                                                                    The fact HJ has been online and posting on other threads but doesn't answer questions in here speaks for itself ino

                                                                    And I mean the questions in relation to the claims he made.
                                                                    Last edited by dobby; 29-03-19, 17:54.

                                                                    Comment


                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by dobby View Post
                                                                      The fact HJ has been online and posting on other threads but doesn't answer questions in here speaks for itself ino

                                                                      And I mean the questions in relation to the claims he made.
                                                                      I thought it would be obvious why I might not want to respond to questions about the place I currently work. The "claims" I made are all industry wide problems, mostly spread throughout every place offering poker. The dealing standard is pretty uniform throughout Ireland.

                                                                      Comment


                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by JP Poker View Post

                                                                        Your first post implies that because we are working in an unregulated industry operators are stealing from staff and players alike which just isn't the case at all.
                                                                        What are you basing this on? How do you know what other operators (when I use the term operator, I am referring to anyone who provides poker as a service) get up to behind closed doors?

                                                                        Originally posted by JP Poker View Post


                                                                        I left a career in finance whilst studying for my Masters at night to start running poker event because I was at one such event that the operator basically stole money from the prize pool. That was 15 years ago and i think through both the old boards.ie and IPB tournament charter players have become more educated and that sort of nonsense doesn't happen anymore.
                                                                        I agree that this forum and the charter has been a force for good, but I don't think it ever had the intention or capacity to cut out fraud in the Irish poker world.

                                                                        Originally posted by JP Poker View Post
                                                                        With regards to dealer training ect in Ireland. If you compare this to the UK model where you have to have a licence to work in a casino and in order to get your licence you have to pay (£950 i think it is) to go on a course and get proper training.

                                                                        Nick O'Hora tried running training courses here a number of years ago but because the market isn't regulated no one was interested in paying a fee for a course that wasn't compulsory.
                                                                        Exactly. Right now the problem is there is no regulator enforcing it, and the market generally isn't savvy enough to realise that poor standards of dealing/organisation means cheating is undetectable, so there is no incentive for organisers to hold dealers to a higher standard.


                                                                        Originally posted by JP Poker View Post

                                                                        Am I naive to think staff haven't stolen from me over the years, of course not! Any business that has cash will always have an element of stealing as greed is a powerful force.

                                                                        Each year I catch someone stealing rake on the cash tables during one of my festivals.

                                                                        But that's staff stealing from operators, not operators stealing from players as you implied.
                                                                        First of all, if they are stealing from you, they are probably also stealing from the customers. Any dealer stealing rake from operators is also going to be overraking so as not to arouse suspicion.

                                                                        Secondly, I agree completely about greed. And that's my main point here, from top to bottom the whole industry has little or no supervision or regulation. Greed is a powerful motivator.

                                                                        Originally posted by JP Poker View Post

                                                                        Rake in almost every card club and at almost every poker festival in the country is a standard x% capped at x€ and I would imagine most players these days know what rake they are paying. If not they can always ask the dealer or floor person and then player will know if they are being over raked.
                                                                        Not always. Try asking in certain places and counting the pot after its been shipped to you...you will find a different outcome.

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        Working...
                                                                        X