Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - Mammy told me not to come.

[Theresa]

We live in a society where the majority of women primarily raise kids and pay a financial price for this. A teaching career is very compatible with rearing kids with the “financial hit” being taken by male and female teachers alike. Teaching is so much more attractive to females as a result. Very hard to overcome this without addressing the wider societal issues.

You are getting very Jordan Peterson here.

[Solksjaer!]

Not guilty doesn't mean innocent and falsely accused.

Semantic pissing competition. They were dirty bastards and proven dirty bastards. Rape case was like a reputation saving contest as opposed to a deviled and damaged victim . Right verdict in my limited exposure to the bare facts

[Raoul Duke III]

It seems to be missed that I've stated I don't think either party is lying.

Do you think she's lying?

I think she panicked, lost control of a narrative, other (powerful) people took over and the whole thing went way further than it ever should have. It should never have gone to court. That said, I have absolutely full confidence that she didn't set out to make false accusations.

Possibly the people who come out of this the very worst are the CPS and various top brass in the PSNI. Belfast legal fraternity has all the gory details and it is not good at all.

[Strewelpeter]

Using the word innocent about any of that gang of lowlife scum is just wrong.

[Strewelpeter]

Do teachers in Ireland really only work all-in 30 hours a week?

No

[Guest]

When you put it like that it sounds fairly sweet! Do teachers in Ireland really only work all-in 30 hours a week? Was sharing a house with a teacher and England and he had shocking amounts of work to do each week - easily 50-60 hours. Don't think people should have to work that amount of hours as it's not healthy, but surprised there's such a difference between UK and Irish workloads. They must not do the same level of outside class assessment and prep as in UK.

2 of missus mates didn't get teaching in Mary I so went to UL and did Arts, standard long winded route to teaching Pre-Hibernia. They went to Scotland and did a post-grad plus you have to spend a year teaching there. They said the gap in workload between Ireland and the UK is unbelievable. Teachers are very much left to themselves in Ireland.

Funny one from NZ. Down there you open a new entrants class which is JR infant equivalent. You start with any kids who turned five during the summer hols. Kids start school on their 5th bday irrespective of what point they turn five during the year. Crazy system. She started with 12 and ended up with 25+.

Better explained below here:

SPOILER

Children starting school as new entrants
Most children in New Zealand start primary school on their fifth birthday. All children must be enrolled by the age of six. Children starting school for the first time are called ‘new entrants’.

Some schools let new entrants start school at any time throughout the school year, either on their fifth birthday or on another date that suits the family.

Other schools use a system called ‘Cohort entry’, meaning children start school in groups at the beginning of each school term. You still have the option of not starting your child in school until their sixth birthday, regardless of whether or not the school they enrol in uses cohort entry.

You will need to find out which system your child’s school uses.

Which school year will your child be enrolled in?
When your child starts primary school they will be enrolled in either Year 0 or Year 1, depending on which half of the year they start in. If your child starts school in the first half of the calendar year, they will start in Year 1. If they start school in the second half of the calendar year, they will start in Year 0 and the following year will be in Year 1.

On the hours, I was talking contact hours is generally 9-3

[jack90210]

Not guilty doesn't mean innocent and falsely accused.

It doesn't not mean it either.

[jack90210]

Possibly the people who come out of this the very worst are the CPS and various top brass in the PSNI. Belfast legal fraternity has all the gory details and it is not good at all.

This was my original point.

[Emmet]

Using the word innocent about any of that gang of lowlife scum is just wrong.

Basing this on their texts I assume?

I'd advise you never ever ever to check any of your children's whatsapp groups. You might have to disown them.

[dobby]

When you put it like that it sounds fairly sweet! Do teachers in Ireland really only work all-in 30 hours a week? Was sharing a house with a teacher and England and he had shocking amounts of work to do each week - easily 50-60 hours. Don't think people should have to work that amount of hours as it's not healthy, but surprised there's such a difference between UK and Irish workloads. They must not do the same level of outside class assessment and prep as in UK.

SP will be along in a minute to tell you they work 100 hours a week

I've a few friends that are teachers, the organised ones can get away with 2 hours "homework" and turn up at 8am instead of 9 to prepare. The ones that tell you they work all the crazy hours usually leave everything until last minute

[Solksjaer!]

Basing this on their texts I assume?

I'd advise you never ever ever to check any of your children's whatsapp groups. You might have to disown them.

Myslef, I base it on the disgraceful attitude to the girl of 19. I'd bet most people don't feel that high brow sense of fucked up entitlement to treat someone like that. It may not have been rape but it was as scummy as it gets. I worry about you if you think otherwise (well more surprised than worried)

[Strewelpeter]

Basing this on their texts I assume?

I'd advise you never ever ever to check any of your children's whatsapp groups. You might have to disown them.

not a chance !

Watching the coverage with two daughters the more feminist one is visiting and had no knowledge of the trial and would be of much the same mind as me on consent but the other one who I used to slag as being a Rugger Hugger type is very unsympathetic to the girl and reckons she just changed her mind and panicked.

[mcnugget]

It isn't really. In the private sector people can negotiate their own wages to a large extent, and move job to a different company that pays more if they are able to secure such a job. Teachers can't. The whole idea of paying people who graduated one year and subsequent years less than those that came before them was utterly flawed, and the unions were complicit in it. Any of those cuts should have come across the board from the higher levels down to grads inclusive, not just focus on one area of them.

I don’t agree. Any of those newly qualified teachers can also leave their jobs and look to work in the private sector if they want to. If the government at the time felt the whole scale was inflated it is fairer imo to reset it at the bottom, anyone already in the role has probably matched their debt / spending to their (as they thought) guaranteed income and would be far more heavily affected. If the new starters don’t like the scale they are offered nowadays, thu can look to work elsewhere. That’s not being a smartarse about it, it’s a much more plausible option for them than someone teaching for 20 years.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

...

[Lazare]

It doesn't not mean it either.

So you'd agree that OJ is innocent, and was falsely accused?

[Denny Crane]

Basing this on their texts I assume?

I'd advise you never ever ever to check any of your children's whatsapp groups. You might have to disown them.

I've seen a bunch of comments like this on Twitter. Pretty grim if that's so normal.

[Denny Crane]

So you'd agree that OJ is innocent, and was falsely accused?

Only took 4 hours too

[Frank Gibney]

Using the word innocent about any of that gang of lowlife scum is just wrong.

Typical rugby mate.

[jack90210]

So you'd agree that OJ is innocent, and was falsely accused?

No he was convicted by the court and sentenced so it's fairly cut and dry in that case.

[dobby]

Any of the horse heads have two passes for Fairyhouse on Monday?

[shano1888]

Worth noting that the vast majority of new entrants don't start on a full contact. It's typically 11 hours at second level so 36/2. There is a lot of teachers with 5+ years experience still on a half contact.

As a secondary school teacher (old pay scale) I do think it's important that the new pay scale is fully abolished. There was significant rowback after Lansdowne Road 2 last year so the 36k hitch is referring to doesn't tell the full story. I looked at the numbers prior to that and I saw that i was pulling 50.5k with allowances after 7 years but that it would take a post 2011 graduate 28 years to earn the same. What 24 year old is going to choose to go into a profession where they are almost guaranteed to be in their mid fifties before they are earning 50k?? There is little dount the standard of teacher would massively deteriorate.

Fwiw I am in school from 8-4 each day and do an average of 6 hours p/w outside of that. I also don't live in Dublin so I have a similar lifestyle as Brady's friends (have a child though so moar crèche fees and less holidays).

Absolutely no idea why/ how you would bother teaching if you lived in Dublin.

[Emmet]

not a chance !

Watching the coverage with two daughters the more feminist one is visiting and had no knowledge of the trial and would be of much the same mind as me on consent but the other one who I used to slag as being a Rugger Hugger type is very unsympathetic to the girl and reckons she just changed her mind and panicked.

I've seen a bunch of comments like this on Twitter. Pretty grim if that's so normal.

the language that groups of people use and become accustomed to using doesn't always reflect very well on them, own standards develop etc.

The bullshit brash bravado 'lads' banter stuff that plenty of people throw around in the privacy of their own group of friends looks absolutely and utterly poisonous in a different light.

I don't for a second think they're a great bunch of lads, but feel very awkward at the idea that their nonsense is taken as an indication of their character given the absolute rubbish I've written myself previously.

[Guest]

No he was convicted by the court and sentenced so it's fairly cut and dry in that case.

He was what now?

He lost a civil case, he was found not guilty in the murder case!

[jack90210]

He was what now?

He lost a civil case, he was found not guilty in the murder case!

He served 9 years for armed robbery in Nevada was just released last year!

[Lazare]

No he was convicted by the court and sentenced so it's fairly cut and dry in that case.

That was the subsequent civil case.

Was he innocent and falsely accused in the initial case?

Edit, fuck this, what Sham says below.

[Guest]

He served 9 years for armed robbery in Nevada was just released last year!

Christ, why anyone wastes time talking to you is beyond me!

[LuckyLloyd]

They can be both scumbags and innocent.

[Denny Crane]

It doesn't not mean it either.

why are you using it in that context then? That they were falsely accused

[Denny Crane]

How people talk in private is probably the best reflection of their actual viewpoint

[Strewelpeter]

The bullshit brash bravado 'lads' banter stuff that plenty of people throw around in the privacy of their own group of friends looks absolutely and utterly poisonous in a different light.

But it wasn't just banter, they did all the stuff they talked about. It did not meet the standards required for a rape conviction but what they admitted to be is rapey enough for me to consider them rapists.

I get that many of this generation who have grown up in a world of ubiquitous porn have an extraordinarily distorted view of sexual relationships but that doesn't excuse anything.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

...

[Strewelpeter]

They can be both scumbags and Not Guilty .

FYP IMO

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

...

[shano1888]

I've tried to post/respond so many times re the trial but I can't articulate what I think/keep half changing my mind.

It's grim. Like really fucking grim. I feel sorry for anyone who thinks that the 'lads' are fully exonerated here but it's clear enough to see how they couldn't be convicted. Feel genuinely sorry for the girl. Disagree with RD re her losing control of the narrative etc. IMO she woke up and fully believed she had been raped. Similarly I believe that the 'lads' woke up fully believing they had done nothing wrong but had had an unreal night going to town on some young one. Reconcile.

[Emmet]

But it wasn't just banter, they did all the stuff they talked about. It did not meet the standards required for a rape conviction but what they admitted to be is rapey enough for me to consider them rapists.

I get that many of this generation who have grown up in a world of ubiquitous porn have an extraordinarily distorted view of sexual relationships but that doesn't excuse anything.

What did they admit to that was rapey enough that you can consider them rapists? Having group sex?

Jaysis. Perhaps you might want to not absolutely destroy the use of the word and trivialise it beyond belief?

[shano1888]

Yikes on the first point! Didn't realise it was that extreme.

On the second point: all the teachers unions are against a Dublin loading. Seems to me that makes a huge amount of sense. It's the only reason they can barely scrape by with enough teachers in London.

It was at its worst. 50/60 per cent of it was clawed back last year.

Don't get that either. There absolutely should be. Wife earns around the same as me (not teaching) and we are comfortable where we are but Dublin is a completely different ball game.

[Emmet]

How people talk in private is probably the best reflection of their actual viewpoint

You have no groups of people that you act differently with, talk differently to, have private jokes with that others wouldn't get? I can't believe that for a second.

[Guest]

On your point Shano about the quality of teacher decreasing. I don't think that will be an issue for a while. CAO points are still high 460 I think for Primary in Mary I so demand is still there.
Hibernia rattling out primary and secondary teachers from every discipline for 15k a pop.
I think it's pretty safe for the moment but I agree anyone with any foresight certainly has to consider the alternative unless they play county of course.

[Solksjaer!]

I'll be on holiers come may 25th. Is my vote lost ?

[shano1888]

On your point Shano about the quality of teacher decreasing. I don't think that will be an issue for a while. CAO points are still high 460 I think for Primary in Mary I so demand is still there.
Hibernia rattling out primary and secondary teachers from every discipline for 15k a pop.
I think it's pretty safe for the moment but I agree anyone with any foresight certainly has to consider the alternative unless they play county of course.

Agreed for the most part. Not a massive issue yet although there are teacher shortages in STEM subjects which would relatively male dominated and have the most transferable skills.

[6starpool]

I'll be on holiers come may 25th. Is my vote lost ?

Check if you can register for a postal vote.

[Denny Crane]

You have no groups of people that you act differently with, talk differently to, have private jokes with that others wouldn't get? I can't believe that for a second.

Yeah I'm more open with people I'm closer to. Where did I suggest I wasn't?

[Strewelpeter]

What did they admit to that was rapey enough that you can consider them rapists? Having group sex?

Jaysis. Perhaps you might want to not absolutely destroy the use of the word and trivialise it beyond belief?

Rubbish. Just one of a number of ways they cross the line for me: If you don't have explicit consent and are using drunkness as a defence against an accusation of sexual assault you are not innocent. IMO, that's an opinion, I'm not asking you to agree with it.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

...

[aidankk]

Just to lighten the mood of some of this discussion

IF anyone fancies and nice film sort of about poker with no poker (to ruin it ) (bit like poker boards) and a great cast. Molly's Game is a lot better than i expected. Not sure what it would be like if it didn't have Jessica Chastain though.

[Opr]

Do teaching standards even matter than much these day? If you don't understand something or it is badly explained you can get a myriad of resources online. I've no idea how much if at all teaching standards have declined but I'm pretty sure most students could teach themselves leaving cert courses online in a extremely efficient manner. I'd be surprised if you can't sign up to some group grind courses online that absolutely dissect the courses to pieces to make them beatable for high points by any average student.

Opr

[Denny Crane]

It's a slight parallel but the same goes for sexual activity and whats now considered normal, a little off centre, or way out west in terms of sexual activity.

My point here is that the narrative that the complainant would never willingly put herself in a situation as she found herself in is far from cast iron

I think few people are prudish/innocent enough to think this couldn't happen. I thought the narrative was that she said it was nonconsensual not that she was too innocent to ever find herself in that situation?

She got up the next morning and posted on Facebook about she just had one of the best nights of her life

I thought that particular girl was outed by a mate that spread a screenshot of a private message? And ended up leaving the country?

[Closed_Account]

Someone who creates a decent consent app that goes tipping point mainstream is going to be a gazillionaire.

[Emmet]

Yeah I'm more open with people I'm closer to. Where did I suggest I wasn't?

So which one of these private conversation's tones best reflects your viewpoint? And how does someone who stumbles upon one decide its 'the real you'?

As above the idea that we can infer stuff about the character of a person from a couple of their messages to the extent that SP can consider them rapists is wild stuff.

[Solksjaer!]

Gimmeabreak- sample size ?

[Emmet]

Rubbish. Just one of a number of ways they cross the line for me: If you don't have explicit consent and are using drunkness as a defence against an accusation of sexual assault you are not innocent. IMO, that's an opinion, I'm not asking you to agree with it.

They didn't use drunkeness as defence?

The defence was that all activity was consensual, and that the narrative of events given did not match what happened.

So what you are accusing them of admitting to, which allows you to consider them rapists, is in no way attached to what they have actually admitted to.

Consent (and the idea of explicit consent) is difficult, given that consent is flexible and people should always have the right to change their mind (obviously). It's a bit like the Homer Simpson 'everything is okay' alarm. How often should you check explicitly if what is going ok is fine?

[Dice75]

Maybe im a bit old school or something but i never got this whole new spit roasting thingy myself. I mean, say i was single & on the rip at a poker event, pull a cracker and off we go at it.... next thing say, i dunno Strewel or RD, pops out of the wardrobe dick in hand....well......

[Emmet]

GAB the story about KPMG girl is missing important info, she messaged her friend on Facebook with details on her way home. Friend, without thinking, screenshot the messages (the girl had sent) and forwarded to a group, which forwarded to another etc etc.

When she woke up the day after, the truth and story were already way out of her control. She's grand now, but it was a life changer. Move jobs, country etc.

[Solksjaer!]

Lazare. You wanna do the station of the cross with me tomorrow? If we do them backwards it has a happy ending.

[Solksjaer!]

They only got off because we won the Grand Slam

[Solksjaer!]

Ah, ya gotta love Millennials - walking around like they rent the place!

[Denny Crane]

So which one of these private conversation's tones best reflects your viewpoint? And how does someone who stumbles upon one decide its 'the real you'?

Private of course? I'm confused why you're disagreeing!

[Emmet]

Private of course? I'm confused why you're disagreeing!

Which of the private groups is what I meant. Family? Work? Girlfriend? 'Couples'? Lads you'd know from school? Lads you went on holidays with? That guy with dark humour who sends you 4chan links?

Etc

[Denny Crane]

Which of the private groups is what I meant. Family? Work? Girlfriend? 'Couples'? Lads you'd know from school? Lads you went on holidays with? That guy with dark humour who sends you 4chan links?

Etc

No one sends me 4chan links and I don't have any locker room-esque private chats. Obv would prefer to keep them private but I don't have any worry of "grab em by the pussy" stuff coming out.

[Denny Crane]

I think the main thing about this case is the different prospectives of men and women.

Men struggle to identify with the victim, they're unlikely to suffer something of that nature. But they can see themselves getting falsely accused of something. There's also the cognitive dissonance in that it's much more comfortable to believe that this kinda thing doesn't really happen, and that she must be making it up. As I said before, is there any crime where so many people gravitate towards believing the accused must be innocent from the get-go?

For women an alarming number of them are victim of sexual assault in some form or another, and if not they certainly know someone close that is. They see a failed legal system where there's no point in reporting such a crime.

So many people reacting to the verdict now think the accused are the victims, that by being found not guilty that the girl must have made it up. That she reported it, went through all the examinations and interviews, was put through a public show trial and spent more time in the dock than the alleged offenders, for what? To tarnish the lads names? To save face cause she didn't want people to think she would consent to something like that? Do you really think in any way she's in a better position for having reported it? Or had any high expectation of getting a conviction? A significant amount of people who report rapes are advised not to continue with the complaint. And for good reason.

Most rapes are unreported. 2/3s of those that are are withdraw before court. Most of the cases that are pursued take 3-5 years and don't lead to convictions. The percentage of false accusations is estimated by the DPP to be in the single digits.

Ask yourself, why is it, that so much of the reaction is about how do stop these false accusations, instead of looking at all the victims?