Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - Mammy told me not to come.

[careca]

Off topic but 2 young American girls, 20ish, stopped me in tallaght at lunchtime and asked me what made me happy * . Obv brainwashed by some church and made me think of what kind of life was in store for them if this was their 'job'.

* didn't want to say having the winner of the 3rd race at Yarmouth so just said family and that I couldn't talk longer

[Mellor]

Pretty harsh to label this misogynistic. He presented some facts to consider. I am probably not going to vote, but the implicit your a boorish pig dog who hates women if you are of a certain belief is out of line imo.

Believing abortion is wrong doesn't make someone a misogynist.
Believing we shouldn't have abortion because women can't be trusted not to abuse it - on account of them mostly being inherent slappers who will opt for a surgical procedure over other contraceptives - is a different story. Most would call that misogynistic.

[Zod]

Off topic but 2 young American girls, 20ish, stopped me in tallaght at lunchtime and asked me what made me happy * . Obv brainwashed by some church and made me think of what kind of life was in store for them if this was their 'job'.

* didn't want to say having the winner of the 3rd race at Yarmouth so just said family and that I couldn't talk longer

You can tell the BBV is getting old when two young ones asking what makes you happy gets a response of "Family".

[careca]

You can tell the BBV is getting old when two young ones asking what makes you happy gets a response of "Family".

Sure we are all one big family here

[Denny Crane]

Apparently emotions are more important than reality

Of they are, people have a very weak grasp of reality, everyone is watching their own TV show.

[Solksjaer!]

Vote Yes for me if ye are undecided. I will continue with my love/hate relationship with wimmen but they deserve the love here. But not in the tennis .

[Solksjaer!]

Off topic but 2 young American girls, 20ish, stopped me in tallaght at lunchtime and asked me what made me happy * .'.

* didn't want to say having the winner of the 3rd race at Yarmouth so just said family and that I couldn't talk longer

Where exactly ?

[Tar.Aldarion]

Off topic but 2 young American girls, 20ish, stopped me in tallaght at lunchtime and asked me what made me happy * . Obv brainwashed by some church and made me think of what kind of life was in store for them if this was their 'job'.

* didn't want to say having the winner of the 3rd race at Yarmouth so just said family and that I couldn't talk longer

Threesomes?


I'm reminded when one of these religious people asked me what music I was listening to, as I walked past them, just trying to insidiously get my attention to talk about out Lord and Saviour.
I slowed down, turned around and stared at them, processing the question. I ended up just emphatically shouting TOOL loudly (as I was accustomed to the louder volume emanating from my earphones, Tool being the name of the band currently on), before abruptly turning and going merrily on my way, their mouth left agape.

Only shortly afterwards did I realise that I had delivered them a sharp lesson in what we all think about them.

[eamonhonda]

I hope somewhere someone is telling the story about how they saw some lad (or lassie) walk up to a religious nut, shout tool in his face and walked off.

That person probably thinks you're a legend but you actually just have a shit taste in music

[Strewelpeter]

Of they are, people have a very weak grasp of reality, everyone is watching their own TV show.

You are taking the piss right?

Just because people are wired to be stupid religious does not negate that there is an objective reality.
I can't believe I'm having to ask this but you do understand that don't you

[jack90210]

The 38% repeat abortion stat could be interpreted many ways. There will be some tragic circumstances where issues mostly covered by the 2013 mostly applies, however it could be both sexes more careless about contraception. What is a strong possibitly is males putting more pressure on females for unprotected sex. There's a myriad of factors potentially at play but one indisputable fact is when abortion is available on demand abortions of healthy babies increases dramatically.

[MrsFlushdraw]

Surgery - orthopaedics specifically. Would love to like GP for the lifestyle but I just couldn’t do what they do every day it’d break my soul

Well done! My eldest is trying to get into Medicine this year, but she has to get a certain grade all in one sitting. She is studying her arse off. Hoping to go into Cardiology due to her own problems.

Pretty harsh to label this misogynistic. He presented some facts to consider. I am probably not going to vote, but the implicit your a boorish pig dog who hates women if you are of a certain belief is out of line imo.

Please Vote Sam. Think of when your daughter is that age, if she is in Ireland and something happens. Do it for the future generations. Let's not keep Ireland a backwards Country.

[Bubbleking]

I said months ago the 8th referendum vote would be our equivalent to Brexit. One side loaded with facts and figures the other without. Unfortunately, in both instances, the no / leave side realized that if they engaged on strictly reasonable terms they would lose emphatically. Ergo the best chance they have of winning is through scare mongering and playing on people’s insecurites with blarent and sensationalist lies.

By refusing to engage in he same tactics the yes side has effectively lost the pre election in my mind. It’s not that long ago savita hallipanavor died because she wasn’t given an abortion. More examples of healthy women dying because of the 8th ammendment should have been used.

To make it clear I am voting yes because I believe it is the right thing to do but I am not confident in it passing. Mostly because the people who I try to convince otherwise have already been duped by a more stategically ran no campaign to the point where they won’t listen to reason

[Bubbleking]

Well done! My eldest is trying to get into Medicine this year, but she has to get a certain grade all in one sitting. She is studying her arse off. Hoping to go into Cardiology due to her own problems.

Cheers! There’s plenty of routes into it these days - the one straight from school
Is definitely the most challenging too. Worth looking up graduate entry medicine as that’s the one I did.

If your back home and she’s wants a few days shadowing gimme a bell and I’ll sort something out with cardio or whatever specialty she wants - no harm seeing it for what it is warts and all at an early stage

[Zod]

The 38% repeat abortion stat could be interpreted many ways. There will be some tragic circumstances where issues mostly covered by the 2013 mostly applies, however it could be both sexes more careless about contraception. What is a strong possibitly is males putting more pressure on females for unprotected sex. There's a myriad of factors potentially at play but one indisputable fact is when abortion is available on demand abortions of healthy babies increases dramatically.

92% happen before 11 weeks using tablets long before wether the foetus is healthy or not or viable or not becomes a factor.

[ComradeCollie]

You are taking the piss right?

Are you deliberately misinterpreting what Denny has said for the lols? I would take his saying that people have a weak grasp of reality implies that reality exists. Their grasp of it, whether weak mild or strong doesn't change that.

[dobby]

Zod where the fuck were you a couple of weeks ago when I asked for advice ya prick.

Anyway, made up my mind recently, voting yes cos it's logical and practical. Really enjoyed the debate on here after I asked and thought about all the points made which were good for both sides imo (mostly Keane on the yes side and Jack on the no side).

I think we're too quick to shut jack down sometimes, I've said it before I don't agree with a lot of what he posts but he's entitled to his opinion and beliefs and he's had a lot of shit thrown at him in here, some (most?) Of it pretty unnecessary.

I did have a good lol trolling the missus yesterday evening. Took the dog for a walk and brought up the 8th, had a good debate with me being on the no side and she got so worked up and frustrated with me that she actually slapped me on the side of the head after it. Passed the time and least I had my fun.

Not gonna go campaigning like zod has, fair play btw, but gonna vote yes and it's probably 95% from this place that I've got all the information.

[jack90210]

92% happen before 11 weeks using tablets long before wether the foetus is healthy or not or viable or not becomes a factor.

I appreciate your generally respectful tone in your argument but I will have to say your facts here are incorrect.

92% was under 13 weeks not 11 weeks. Of the 190,406 abortions 38% were surgical, under 10 weeks its 28%. Not that the method involved makes any difference really.

I would urge you to take a look at scans at various ages and make a logical determination in your own head if this is viable life or not. The doctor arguing for abortion on the late late show even said life begins at conception.

Incidently 57% of the 38% of those on a repeat abortion were to women 24 or younger.

[dobby]

Folks, for many reasons, it is ok to choose not to exercise your vote. Less of the preaching to people, imo.

Also this.

And who's to say jbravado would vote yes if you all convinced him to vote? He might be a no voter not bothering.

[jack90210]

Zod where the fuck were you a couple of weeks ago when I asked for advice ya prick.

Anyway, made up my mind recently, voting yes cos it's logical and practical. Really enjoyed the debate on here after I asked and thought about all the points made which were good for both sides imo (mostly Keane on the yes side and Jack on the no side).

I think we're too quick to shut jack down sometimes, I've said it before I don't agree with a lot of what he posts but he's entitled to his opinion and beliefs and he's had a lot of shit thrown at him in here, some (most?) Of it pretty unnecessary.

I did have a good lol trolling the missus yesterday evening. Took the dog for a walk and brought up the 8th, had a good debate with me being on the no side and she got so worked up and frustrated with me that she actually slapped me on the side of the head after it. Passed the time and least I had my fun.

Not gonna go campaigning like zod has, fair play btw, but gonna vote yes and it's probably 95% from this place that I've got all the information.

Thanks for that. Appreciate you made up mind up based on the information presented to you thats all anyone can do in any situation.

[eamonhonda]

Also this.

And who's to say jbravado would vote yes if you all convinced him to vote? He might be a no voter not bothering.

He should still have his say, in my opinion

[dobby]

He should still have his say, in my opinion

Glad you agree. It sounded like the few comments were at him to vote and vote yes. I know nobody said it like that but it's the way it came across.

Not voting will always be an option though. I didn't vote in the last general election. People said you should vote to have your say but I didn't think anyone was worthy of voting in so I left it. That's why I make a point of not getting involved in or complaining about politics. I didn't vote, I've no right to complain.

[Zod]

Folks, for many reasons, it is ok to choose not to exercise your vote. Less of the preaching to people, imo.

Fuck off.

[eamonhonda]

Glad you agree. It sounded like the few comments were at him to vote and vote yes. I know nobody said it like that but it's the way it came across.

Not voting will always be an option though. I didn't vote in the last general election. People said you should vote to have your say but I didn't think anyone was worthy of voting in so I left it. That's why I make a point of not getting involved in or complaining about politics. I didn't vote, I've no right to complain.

You should have went in and spoiled your vote, and made your statement. I accept what your saying but doesn't apply in a referendum in my opinion, and I'd be on favour of compulsory by law system like they have in I think Australia but I could be wrong. Again just for referendums

[Zod]

I appreciate your generally respectful tone in your argument but I will have to say your facts here are incorrect.

92% was under 13 weeks not 11 weeks. Of the 190,406 abortions 38% were surgical, under 10 weeks its 28%. Not that the method involved makes any difference really.

I would urge you to take a look at scans at various ages and make a logical determination in your own head if this is viable life or not. The doctor arguing for abortion on the late late show even said life begins at conception.

Incidently 57% of the 38% of those on a repeat abortion were to women 24 or younger.

I urge you to not assume I haven't seen scans or not know what it involves.

The 8th is killing women regardless of abortion or not.

[Ed]

Anyone been watching The Terror? Any use?

[shrapnel]

Anyone been watching The Terror? Any use?

The book is fantastic. I really hope the TV series lives up to it but I've not heard anything yet.

[Zod]

The book is fantastic. I really hope the TV series lives up to it but I've not heard anything yet.

Is that based on the Dan Simmons book?

[shrapnel]

Is that based on the Dan Simmons book?

That's the one. I was cold reading it the whole way through

[MrsFlushdraw]

Cheers! There’s plenty of routes into it these days - the one straight from school
Is definitely the most challenging too. Worth looking up graduate entry medicine as that’s the one I did.

If your back home and she’s wants a few days shadowing gimme a bell and I’ll sort something out with cardio or whatever specialty she wants - no harm seeing it for what it is warts and all at an early stage

She planning to study in Malta and then do her intern in the UK or Ireland. She may take you up on the offer to see it warts and all!

I appreciate your generally respectful tone in your argument but I will have to say your facts here are incorrect.

92% was under 13 weeks not 11 weeks. Of the 190,406 abortions 38% were surgical, under 10 weeks its 28%. Not that the method involved makes any difference really.

I would urge you to take a look at scans at various ages and make a logical determination in your own head if this is viable life or not. The doctor arguing for abortion on the late late show even said life begins at conception.

Incidently 57% of the 38% of those on a repeat abortion were to women 24 or younger.

Unless you are a U/S technician, I can safely say I have seen a lot more scans than ANYONE on this forum. I have seen scans from 5w to 38w and everything in between.

Up till 7 weeks, it's a funny shape with a white flashing dot. nothing baby like at all. Look like an alien till 9 weeks and not a baby at all.

But irrespective of "when does life begin" why should a woman in this day and age have to forfeit her life? if she dies, the baby prob will too. So that's a double waste.

I am so glad I am not in Ireland and somehow got pregnant as I would be writing up my story for "In her shoes" as I would be forced to travel for an abortion.

I may not be a supporter of abortion on demand, but I am a supporter of having a choice when necessary. It is for these people, that have babies with FFA and the mother having a health risk that we need to think of as ultimately they are the ones that will suffer.

[jack90210]

She planning to study in Malta and then do her intern in the UK or Ireland. She may take you up on the offer to see it warts and all!



Unless you are a U/S technician, I can safely say I have seen a lot more scans than ANYONE on this forum. I have seen scans from 5w to 38w and everything in between.

Up till 7 weeks, it's a funny shape with a white flashing dot. nothing baby like at all. Look like an alien till 9 weeks and not a baby at all.

But irrespective of "when does life begin" why should a woman in this day and age have to forfeit her life? if she dies, the baby prob will too. So that's a double waste.

I am so glad I am not in Ireland and somehow got pregnant as I would be writing up my story for "In her shoes" as I would be forced to travel for an abortion.

I may not be a supporter of abortion on demand, but I am a supporter of having a choice when necessary. It is for these people, that have babies with FFA and the mother having a health risk that we need to think of as ultimately they are the ones that will suffer.

It's a bit like poker though isn't it, one could look at thousands of images online substantially quicker than in real life. The ultrasound technology has improved immeasurably too.

Agree the last bit should be sorted and it could be by a different legal method.

[luckforsome]

That's the one. I was cold reading it the whole way through

...Should've turned the heating on Shrap...

[Kayroo]

Agree the last bit should be sorted and it could be by a different legal method.

That’s literally what the repeal voters want. We repeal the 8th and then legislate for abortion as decided by the Oireachtas. Otherwise known as “a different legal method”.

[Bubbleking]

I considered voting no for quite awhile genuinely. based on discussions with some of my GP colleagues who feel that it will fall to them to provide the service they are not trained / comfortable with. I think it’s a genuine concern but ultimately not one is base my vote on

[jack90210]

That’s literally what the repeal voters want. We repeal the 8th and then legislate for abortion as decided by the Oireachtas. Otherwise known as “a different legal method”.

A different different legal method then if that make it clearer for you. Repeal voters also want/implicitly accept abortion on demand.

[DeadParrot]

Probably the worst bit of goalkeeping I've seen

[DeadParrot]

I considered voting no for quite awhile genuinely. based on discussions with some of my GP colleagues who feel that it will fall to them to provide the service they are not trained / comfortable with. I think it’s a genuine concern but ultimately not one is base my vote on

The first part is largely irrelevant right? I don't think the local GP would be doing much more than prescribing pills.
The second part is a court case waiting to happen.

[Bubbleking]

The first part is largely irrelevant right? I don't think the local GP would be doing much more than prescribing pills.
The second part is a court case waiting to happen.

Well prescribing pills is what it will be (pre 12 weeks anyway). It comes down to if you believe a doctors personal opinions dictate the treatment they can give - it shouldnt and I believe it doesn’t In the vast majority of cases but prob will in this instance

[Kayroo]

A different different legal method then if that make it clearer for you. Repeal voters also want/implicitly accept abortion on demand.

The point is actually somewhere between the two of us. If you repeal the 8th amendment then we can legislate for the additional cases that you accept* should be covered for women. How far we go in doing so is a matter for the Oireachtas and is subject to change depending upon the will of the people. It also allows for a more nuanced approach to the legislation on what is, by any measure, an extremely difficult and complex topic.

So there is an argument, based on your own concessions, that you should vote to repeal to allow for the changes you have already agreed with. Enshrining these things in the Constitution is just a bad bad idea. Always has been and always will be.


* I am not trolling here, MrsFD mentioned abortion when required as in FFA and risk to health as distinct from life of the mother. When you suggested a "different different" legal method I presume you mean changing the Constitution to replace the 8th with an amendment that allows the above but doesn't allow anything much beyond that. Apart from being almost entirely unworkable, almost every problem the 8th has caused is because of ambiguity and unintended consequences of a law that is incredibly hard to change. By removing the 8th entirely and allowing the Oireachtas to sort this out we make sure that the State can react and adapt to the needs of the people.

[Bubbleking]

I need more law friends to explain shit to me / keep on retainer

[Kayroo]

The first part is largely irrelevant right? I don't think the local GP would be doing much more than prescribing pills.
The second part is a court case waiting to happen.

There were court cases in the UK but their legislation contains a conscientious objection clause. Where no alternative medical professional can be found the person with the objection must provide the appropriate medical care regardless of their personal views.

That is in a country without a written constitution however and there may be more complicated issues in an Irish context.

[jack90210]

The point is actually somewhere between the two of us. If you repeal the 8th amendment then we can legislate for the additional cases that you accept* should be covered for women. How far we go in doing so is a matter for the Oireachtas and is subject to change depending upon the will of the people. It also allows for a more nuanced approach to the legislation on what is, by any measure, an extremely difficult and complex topic.

So there is an argument, based on your own concessions, that you should vote to repeal to allow for the changes you have already agreed with. Enshrining these things in the Constitution is just a bad bad idea. Always has been and always will be.


* I am not trolling here, MrsFD mentioned abortion when required as in FFA and risk to health as distinct from life of the mother. When you suggested a "different different" legal method I presume you mean changing the Constitution to replace the 8th with an amendment that allows the above but doesn't allow anything much beyond that. Apart from being almost entirely unworkable, almost every problem the 8th has caused is because of ambiguity and unintended consequences of a law that is incredibly hard to change. By removing the 8th entirely and allowing the Oireachtas to sort this out we make sure that the State can react and adapt to the needs of the people.

No because then you are putting it hands of politicians who have already said what they will do and will likely come under increased political pressure as years go on to liberalise it further. Some rights are so fundamental they should be protected by the Constitution. The politicians already elected many openly stated before the last election they were pro-life and have had sudden changes of heart so they are obviously not willing to stick to what they say. I know you say its unworkable in the Constitution but I refuse to believe that, we have put a man on the moon etc etc.

[Trippie]

No because then you are putting it hands of politicians who have already said what they will do and will likely come under increased political pressure as years go on to liberalise it further. Some rights are so fundamental they should be protected by the Constitution. The politicians already elected many openly stated before the last election they were pro-life and have had sudden changes of heart so they are obviously not willing to stick to what they say. I know you say its unworkable in the Constitution but I refuse to believe that, we have put a man on the moon etc etc.

I assume then you oppose the death penalty. For example in the USA if someone was to suggest it as a viable option for dealing with drug dealers, surely you'd say that's madness?

[Kayroo]

I know you say its unworkable in the Constitution but I refuse to believe that, we have put a man on the moon etc etc.

Just because some things are possible doesn't mean all things are possible. More particularly it doesn't mean all things are advisable.

You and I both agree that there are situations where abortions should occur. Now, we don't necessarily agree on what those situations are; I grant you that. But, nevertheless, as a starting point we agree there are situations where they should happen.

Let us just take the issues where we agree and ignore the rest. You have agreed in this thread that the acceptable incidences of abortion should include incidences of fatal foetal abnormality and where the health, as distinct from the life, of the mother is at risk.

But what level of health should be at risk? What are the criteria? We cannot include a list of criteria in the Constitution as that would be entirely unworkable. We cannot draw a line because, inevitably, medical procedures will advance and what is today a serious risk to the mother's health may be nothing of the sort in 10 years. This is just one small example of why this does not belong in the Constitution.

I'm not arguing a woman's right to choose here or bodily autonomy or any other argument save for one. I am arguing solely on the basis of the areas we agree upon. And even in those areas the 8th Amendment, based on our common ground, logically must be repealed. To do otherwise is to accept the continued denial of medical treatment to women that we agree should be available to them and that, surely, we can agree should not persist?

[jack90210]

Just because some things are possible doesn't mean all things are possible. More particularly it doesn't mean all things are advisable.

You and I both agree that there are situations where abortions should occur. Now, we don't necessarily agree on what those situations are; I grant you that. But, nevertheless, as a starting point we agree there are situations where they should happen.

Let us just take the issues where we agree and ignore the rest. You have agreed in this thread that the acceptable incidences of abortion should include incidences of fatal foetal abnormality and where the health, as distinct from the life, of the mother is at risk.

But what level of health should be at risk? What are the criteria? We cannot include a list of criteria in the Constitution as that would be entirely unworkable. We cannot draw a line because, inevitably, medical procedures will advance and what is today a serious risk to the mother's health may be nothing of the sort in 10 years. This is just one small example of why this does not belong in the Constitution.

I'm not arguing a woman's right to choose here or bodily autonomy or any other argument save for one. I am arguing solely on the basis of the areas we agree upon. And even in those areas the 8th Amendment, based on our common ground, logically must be repealed. To do otherwise is to accept the continued denial of medical treatment to women that we agree should be available to them and that, surely, we can agree should not persist?

Well we already have protection when the life of the mother is at risk and I've heard various views on how that law is interpreted from both sides (doctors on both sides) and perhaps it should be interpreted as widely as possible based on the expertise of the doctors involved and the technology of the day etc. FFA would probably be solved by an insertion into the C.

[eamonhonda]

I can't see the latest posts part on top of homepage, assume I hit something by mistake, anyone care to point me on how to get it back?

[dobby]

I can't see the latest posts part on top of homepage, assume I hit something by mistake, anyone care to point me on how to get it back?

There's a little button on the right hand side, just below where your username and private messages are shown. They'll be pointing down, click them and it'll show

[Kayroo]

Well we already have protection when the life of the mother is at risk and I've heard various views on how that law is interpreted from both sides (doctors on both sides) and perhaps it should be interpreted as widely as possible based on the expertise of the doctors involved and the technology of the day etc. FFA would probably be solved by an insertion into the C.

The law cannot possibly take the health of the mother into account. There is no legally sound interpretation of the constitutional landscape that could possibly allow for that and any Act of the Oireachtas that did would be unconstitutional. How do I know this? Because the Supreme Court already went through all this 27 years ago.

I, therefore, conclude that the proper test to be applied is that if it is established as a matter of probability that there is a real and substantial risk to the life, as distinct from the health, of the mother, which can only be avoided by the termination of her pregnancy, such termination is permissible, having regard to the true interpretation of Article 40, s. 3, sub-s. 3 of the Constitution

That is the interpretation of the law. No doctor can go beyond it. No disagreement between well-meaning physicians matters one iota. That is the law. Plain and simple. So the only way to allow for the form of abortion that you accept is necessary is to repeal the 8th amendment.

[careca]

Probably the worst bit of goalkeeping I've seen

What a game of ball though. Super stuff from.start to finish.

[Keane]

Just heard Ivan Yates on some show say Danny Healy Rae was going to debating with Niamh Horan about something. The world is fucked.

[Zod]

Well we already have protection when the life of the mother is at risk and I've heard various views on how that law is interpreted from both sides (doctors on both sides) and perhaps it should be interpreted as widely as possible based on the expertise of the doctors involved and the technology of the day etc. FFA would probably be solved by an insertion into the C.

Healthcare shouldn't be regulated in the constitution.

[MrsFlushdraw]

Well we already have protection when the life of the mother is at risk and I've heard various views on how that law is interpreted from both sides (doctors on both sides) and perhaps it should be interpreted as widely as possible based on the expertise of the doctors involved and the technology of the day etc. FFA would probably be solved by an insertion into the C.

But it is not taking other things into consideration. Like myself, hole in the heart, was told I was to be sterilised as carrying another baby posed a high risk to my life.

I am waiting to hear about possible heart surgery, but even with all that taken into consideration, my condition is not deemed serious enough! So I could quite possibly die and leave my children that are here now without a mother.

So the new law does not really help in a lot of cases.

[dobby]

Just heard Ivan Yates on some show say Danny Healy Rae was going to debating with Niamh Horan about something. The world is fucked.

Who is Ivan Yates and Niamh Horan?

Nice of them to give the woman an open goal for a debate, they're not able to cut it with coherent men.

[jack90210]

The law cannot possibly take the health of the mother into account. There is no legally sound interpretation of the constitutional landscape that could possibly allow for that and any Act of the Oireachtas that did would be unconstitutional. How do I know this? Because the Supreme Court already went through all this 27 years ago.



That is the interpretation of the law. No doctor can go beyond it. No disagreement between well-meaning physicians matters one iota. That is the law. Plain and simple. So the only way to allow for the form of abortion that you accept is necessary is to repeal the 8th amendment.

Well SC have also said unborn has no C right other then 8th. So its pretty much a clean slate if was removed and replaced as it isn't interacting with anything else, the words could be crafted so the correct interpretations are made. Listen I aware you are obviously a legal professional will blitz me on anything I try to argue with on this but also aware there is a counter argument to every argument even if I am not legal trained to put it forward on this forum. If it was all about protecting the mother in the rare extreme circumstances that angle would be pursued further but it is clear the intention is to provide abortion on demand.

[ArmaniJeans]

Well SC have also said unborn has no C right other then 8th. So its pretty much a clean slate if was removed and replaced as it isn't interacting with anything else, the words could be crafted so the correct interpretations are made. Listen I aware you are obviously a legal professional will blitz me on anything I try to argue with on this but also aware there is a counter argument to every argument even if I am not legal trained to put it forward on this forum. If it was all about protecting the mother in the rare extreme circumstances that angle would be pursued further but it is clear the intention is to provide abortion on demand.

Ultimately surely if the time comes when the people decide that the legislation is abhorrently over-liberal then the party who opposes it and promises to change it will get elected in a landslide.

[Kayroo]

Well SC have also said unborn has no C right other then 8th. So its pretty much a clean slate if was removed and replaced as it isn't interacting with anything else, the words could be crafted so the correct interpretations are made. Listen I aware you are obviously a legal professional will blitz me on anything I try to argue with on this but also aware there is a counter argument to every argument even if I am not legal trained to put it forward on this forum. If it was all about protecting the mother in the rare extreme circumstances that angle would be pursued further but it is clear the intention is to provide abortion on demand.

Me being a lawyer has nothing to do with this argument, albeit it arms me to make it somewhat.

I am arguing about how to achieve what you and I both agree needs to be available to women. We don't disagree on this issue one bit. There's no alternative wording being suggested, no new way to retain the 8th and give women access to abortion in the case of a risk to their health. Nobody has suggested one because, frankly, it has no place in the Constitution and even if it did, there's no way in a constitution to cover off every eventuality, or even enough of them to make it justifiable to have such a provision.

You are a No voter. But you do believe in limited access to abortion. Without trying to put words in your mouth you have said as much. So you wouldn't be in agreement with people who believe abortion should be disallowed in any circumstance. Equally, the Yes side has people who range from unlimited access to abortion advocates all the way to people who believe precisely the same thing you do - that abortion should be available in more situations than is currently the case but not on demand. They have simply come to a different conclusion to you on the the choice between retaining the 8th as a necessary evil and repealing it and accepting the possible consequences on the other side of that equation.

[jack90210]

Ultimately surely if the time comes when the people decide that the legislation is abhorrently over-liberal then the party who opposes it and promises to change it will get elected in a landslide.

Unlikely because as you already know the PR electoral system doesn't open itself to a party taking a strong stand on a 50:50 issue BEFORE an election because the only way to win is to position yourself nicely inside the big tent.

[eamonhonda]

There's a little button on the right hand side, just below where your username and private messages are shown. They'll be pointing down, click them and it'll show

Nah I thought you were right but the whole top 5 bar is gone. Can only show or hide the poker bar.

[Zod]

Unlikely because as you already know the PR electoral system doesn't open itself to a party taking a strong stand on a 50:50 issue BEFORE an election because the only way to win is to position yourself nicely inside the big tent.

... you are aware of how FF came to power before the 83 referendum?

[jack90210]

Me being a lawyer has nothing to do with this argument, albeit it arms me to make it somewhat.

I am arguing about how to achieve what you and I both agree needs to be available to women. We don't disagree on this issue one bit. There's no alternative wording being suggested, no new way to retain the 8th and give women access to abortion in the case of a risk to their health. Nobody has suggested one because, frankly, it has no place in the Constitution and even if it did, there's no way in a constitution to cover off every eventuality, or even enough of them to make it justifiable to have such a provision.

You are a No voter. But you do believe in limited access to abortion. Without trying to put words in your mouth you have said as much. So you wouldn't be in agreement with people who believe abortion should be disallowed in any circumstance. Equally, the Yes side has people who range from unlimited access to abortion advocates all the way to people who believe precisely the same thing you do - that abortion should be available in more situations than is currently the case but not on demand. They have simply come to a different conclusion to you on the the choice between retaining the 8th as a necessary evil and repealing it and accepting the possible consequences on the other side of that equation.

I haven't heard stats on how many women are losing their life due to our current abortion laws each year but since 2013 Act in particular it is likely tiny maybe 1 or less a year (because I am sure we would hear all about it) which is clearly wrong as we have said and I still believe there is possibility to fix that. But as we have seen in other countries hundreds thousands of babies over the years will die if its repealed and certain types of babies will be bred out society.