Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - Mammy told me not to come.

[The Situation]

Scary how dominant the #ibelieveher hashtag is with female voices and the similar dominace the #idontbelieveher is with male ones. Makes you think orchestrating the male heavy jury was the best thing their lawyers did regardless of the facts of the case. If the balance was weighted similarly to a female heavy jury I think we'd be seeing a different verdict.

I was once on a trial that became the biggest libel in Irish history at the time. A female pr consultant sued a newspaper for allegedly making inferences she was having an affair with a politician. Given the evidence we saw and what we were told to focus on by the judge I didn't believe there was enough to give a guilty verdict. Neither did the three other men on the jury. All 8 women on the jury did though. Two lads changed their vote late at a whim to give the majority of 10 needed because they didn't want to come back the next day. But I've no doubt the uneven gender divide won that case for her.

[LuckyLloyd]

But it wasn't just banter, they did all the stuff they talked about. It did not meet the standards required for a rape conviction but what they admitted to be is rapey enough for me to consider them rapists.

I get that many of this generation who have grown up in a world of ubiquitous porn have an extraordinarily distorted view of sexual relationships but that doesn't excuse anything.

All their chat indicates is a lack of respect for women. There have been many dickheads throughout history who lacked respect for women but were not rapists or potential rapists. Physically assaulting, sexually assaulting, raping or even murdering are extremely specific criminally defined acts. You are outright wrong to be labelling these lads as criminals on the basis of their texts.

The harsh reality for a lot of people is that criminal due process is specific and has a high burden of proof. As it absolutely should. People want those standards to be lowered for their own causes of the moment. There’s a loose parallel to the Jobstown trials here in that sense.

[Denny Crane]

Scary how dominant the #ibelieveher hashtag is with female voices and the similar dominace the #idontbelieveher is with male ones. Makes you think orchestrating the male heavy jury was the best thing their lawyers did regardless of the facts of the case. If the balance was weighted similarly to a female heavy jury I think we'd be seeing a different verdict.

I was once on a trial that became the biggest libel in Irish history at the time. A female pr consultant sued a newspaper for allegedly making inferences she was having an affair with a politician. Given the evidence we saw and what we were told to focus on by the judge I didn't believe there was enough to give a guilty verdict. Neither did the three other men on the jury. All 8 women on the jury did though. Two lads changed their vote late at a whim to give the majority of 10 needed because they didn't want to come back the next day. But I've no doubt the uneven gender divide won that case for her.

In the 2009 book Rape and Justice in Ireland, by leading academics Conor Hanly, Deirdre Healy, and Stacy Scriver, it was found that, in sex assault cases, male-dominated juries had a higher conviction rate than those evenly split by gender.

The authors studied and analysed the verdicts and gender breakdowns of 108 juries, of which 64% had more men on them than women; 17% had more women on them; and 19% were evenly divided between male and female jurors.

Their study showed that female-dominated juries did not convict of rape in any case, and the male- dominated juries had a higher conviction rate.

.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

...

[Hectorjelly]

[QUOTE=The Situation;1063521Two lads changed their vote late at a whim to give the majority of 10 needed because they didn't want to come back the next day. [/QUOTE]

[Emmet]

No one sends me 4chan links and I don't have any locker room-esque private chats. Obv would prefer to keep them private but I don't have any worry of "grab em by the pussy" stuff coming out.

You didn't answer the question there. Which of the groups is the one we should judge you on?

[ArmaniJeans]

Wasn't it the same here with Liverpool supporters and some guy who was going around biting people? There was a decent number of supporters arguing with eloquent references that cannibalism was a perfectly healthy and natural way of expressing yourself.

Loved David Squires take on this.

SPOILER

[Denny Crane]

You didn't answer the question there. Which of the groups is the one we should judge you on?

Any of them?

Is your line here that certain groups only show one facet of your personality?

Or something like that even if Paul make jokes about Jews with his mate Dave he know's it's only banter and Paul's not really anti-semitic he's a grand chap really?

[Emmet]

Any of them?

Is your line here that certain groups only show one facet of your personality?

Or something like that even if Paul make jokes about Jews with his mate Dave he know's it's only banter and Paul's not really anti-semitic he's a grand chap really?

Context is irrelevant for jokes now I suppose.

[Denny Crane]

Context is irrelevant for jokes now I suppose.

This all started from a discussion about the messages they sent.

[Emmet]

This all started from a discussion about the messages they sent.

Absolutely. And the suggestion that without context SP is happy to use their words to hang them.

[Denny Crane]

Absolutely. And the suggestion that without context SP is happy to use their words to hang them.

And you don't think private messages reflect people's real character? Surely it's the most accurate of any.

[Solksjaer!]

With all the outrage by wimmin about violent sex you'd wonder why they flocked in their millions to buy 50 shades of grey.

[Emmet]

And you don't think private messages reflect people's real character? Surely it's the most accurate of any.

Because people only ever are deadly serious with friends and never ever play to the crowd?

Context is huge. I think ignoring it and looking at absolutes is odd.

[Denny Crane]

Bit grim if that's the crowd.

[Emmet]

Bit grim if that's the crowd.

No doubt. Humour is subjective is it not?

Fwiw, I'm more than willing to accept that my perception of normality could be well out of sync. And that nobody else has ever made an inappropriate in-joke, or slated someone with hyperbole, or engaged in boorish 'banter' which would look utterly toxic to all others. I don't think that's quite true though, personally.

[NewApproach]

But it wasn't just banter, they did all the stuff they talked about. It did not meet the standards required for a rape conviction but what they admitted to be is rapey enough for me to consider them rapists.

I get that many of this generation who have grown up in a world of ubiquitous porn have an extraordinarily distorted view of sexual relationships but that doesn't excuse anything.

This highlighted bit is clearly bollocks particularly for McIlroy (who seems like an odious individual). It was acknowledged in court that he’d be generally considered ‘full of shit’.

Yes the tone of the WhatsApp messages don’t look good but it did it not strike you for one second that they could be full of hyperbole and not necessarily an accurate summary of the night’s events?

[6starpool]

No doubt. Humour is subjective is it not?

Fwiw, I'm more than willing to accept that my perception of normality could be well out of sync. And that nobody else has ever made an inappropriate in-joke, or slated someone with hyperbole, or engaged in boorish 'banter' which would look utterly toxic to all others. I don't think that's quite true though, personally.

Of course it's not true.

[eoghan104]

Good debate here the last few pages. LuckyLloyd and Emmet are taking SP and Denny apart. How anyone engages with SP on serious issues is beyond me. Emmet spot on with the different groups and way we talk.

I can't articulate my thoughts on this as well as some of you but I am in the same ballpark of thinking as BCB and Raoul. I don't think she set out to make false accusations and I think the lads believe what happened was fully consensual.

Consent needs to be defined better. That is the root cause here, but it's a very hard thing to do without Jbravado's app (even then it's not black/white).

Anyway....... enter the Aintree tipping comp and make money from people riding mares and fillys without consent!

[Denny Crane]

No doubt. Humour is subjective is it not?

Fwiw, I'm more than willing to accept that my perception of normality could be well out of sync. And that nobody else has ever made an inappropriate in-joke, or slated someone with hyperbole, or engaged in boorish 'banter' which would look utterly toxic to all others. I don't think that's quite true though, personally.

Sure who hasn't made an inappropriate in-joke, but that's not what we're talking about. It's a full conversation, and people are defending it by saying "sure that's what mates talk about". My point if that is the standard level discussion (and I know it is in plenty of groups) it's completely grim. The general conversation looks toxic but my mate thinks it's funny doesn't change the nature of it.

[Denny Crane]

Good debate here the last few pages. LuckyLloyd and Emmet are taking SP and Denny apart. How anyone engages with SP on serious issues is beyond me. Emmet spot on with the different groups and way we talk.

I can't articulate my thoughts on this as well as some of you but I am in the same ballpark of thinking as BCB and Raoul. I don't think she set out to make false accusations and I think the lads believe what happened was fully consensual.

Consent needs to be defined better. That is the root cause here, but it's a very hard thing to do without Jbravado's app (even then it's not black/white).

Anyway....... enter the Aintree tipping comp and make money from people riding mares and fillys without consent!

Believing you've consent and having consent aren't the same.

[Fullof..It]

If you're about to pull trigger on Mortgage - Fixed or Variable?

[Denny Crane]

also, whilst the lads messages are getting the focus I think it is worth considering the words and tone of the messages she sent the following morning to her mates. Proof of nothing but it left me wondering as to the reliability of her overall claims and it would also help you consider how something gets rolling to the point of no reverse.

Which bit?


At 9:51am, the complainant messages the same friend she told she was back at Paddy Jackson’s house to say, “worst night ever, so I got raped."

At 10:08am in response to Rory Harrison's message about the earphones, the complainant replies “yea, why? lol."

In the same minute, the complainant messaged another friend to say, “So I got raped by 3 Ulster fucking rugby scum brilliant fucking night.”

The complainant: “I feel sick.”

The friend continued: “I’m so sorry.”

And in a series of texts the complainant said: “I was entirely fine going back to that afters.”

“So went back to their house. There were three other girls too.

“Good fun for a while then the girls started to get slutty.

“There was one guy I really didn’t like and I was like right I’m going to go now.

“Went to get my shoes but my clutch was upstairs.

“Went to get it and Paddy Jackson came up behind me.

“He’d already tried it on earlier and I firmly told him where to go.

“The next thing I’m bent over the bed.

“I have bruising on my inner thighs. I feel like I’ve got bruising literally on my fanny. They were so rough I’ve got my period a week earlier.”

The friend asked: “Were there more than one?”

The complainant responded: “Two and then a third tried to get involved. I was crying."

The friend told her: “I’m so sorry.”

The complainant then told her friend that a “really nice guy” brought her home.

When her friend tried to call her, she replied, “I can’t take a call. I don’t want anyone to hear."

The friend told her that she needed to “get swabbed right now” and that she needed to tell the police.

The complainant replied: " I’m not going to the police. I’m not going up against Ulster Rugby. Yea because that'll work”

The friend said: “I’m never leaving you on your own again.”

The complainant replied: “I was crying and saying, ‘at least use a condom’ and Paddy Jackson said, ‘I am."


The complainant told her friend that a fourth man got her into a taxi and brought her home.

The complainant told her friend, “I was bawling the whole way home.”

When her friend asked if she was going to report to the police, the complainant replied, “I’d report it if I knew they’d get done but they won’t.”

The friend said the complainant should go to a Rape Crisis centre and get the morning-after pill.

The complainant said to her friend: “Like I hadn’t even shaved my legs...had only tanned the bottom of them and my arms. I wasn’t up or ready for fucking anything."

Her friend messaged back: “This does not define your life from now on. You need counselling. You just cannot deal with this on your own. You need to get a full screening. This is beyond serious now".

At 3:20pm, the complainant messages a male friend to say “Are you in Belfast? I have a huge favour to ask, I need to go to Newry.”

The friend replies, "Why?"

The complainant explains, "I got raped last night, have to go to get forensic samples taken."

The friend replies “Omg, that's terrible, by who?”

The complainant responds, “I’m in the Brooke now, 2 ulster rugby guys.”

The friend replies, “I can’t bring you down, have to get parents from airport. ....this is awful what happened ....are you ok...I’m not going to say to anyone don't worry."

The complainant responds, “Paddy Jackson and one blond guy and some other guy tried to get involved. honestly it was horrible.”

The friend asks, “are you going to the police, I really hope you are ok." He then says “what was the blond guy’s name, how did it all come about."

The complainant replies, “no I don’t want to get the police involved, you know how it goes, they won’t get charged and I'll have to go through police interviews…”

On 29 June, the day after the complainant visited the Rowan Sexual Assualt Referral Centre, she made a statement to the police to report sexual crimes she alleged were committed against her.

[Strewelpeter]

They didn't use drunkeness as defence?

Did PJ not state that he was too drunk to remember some details?

All their chat indicates is a lack of respect for women. There have been many dickheads throughout history who lacked respect for women but were not rapists or potential rapists. Physically assaulting, sexually assaulting, raping or even murdering are extremely specific criminally defined acts. You are outright wrong to be labelling these lads as criminals on the basis of their texts.

Thats not what I'm saying though, if I'd been on that jury I probably have voted not guilty.
I'm saying that, for me, there are degrees of rape and my opinion of what constitutes , lets call it rapey behaviour, is very much broader. I'd set the bar very low: if you don't have explicit consent then you are likely over the line. That's an opinion that I don't think represents anything to do with my age or my innocence about the way young people behave, its simply about respect. I know that is unenforceable in law but it is something that is the responsibility of every parent, educator and peer group to make a norm for everyone, especially young men.

[eamonhonda]

With all the outrage by wimmin about violent sex you'd wonder why they flocked in their millions to buy 50 shades of grey.

You need a time out m8

[eoghan104]

Did PJ not state that he was too drunk to remember some details?

Thats not what I'm saying though, if I'd been on that jury I probably have voted not guilty.
I'm saying that, for me, there are degrees of rape and my opinion of what constitutes , lets call it rapey behaviour, is very much broader. I'd set the bar very low: if you don't have explicit consent then you are likely over the line. That's an opinion that I don't think represents anything to do with my age or my innocence about the way young people behave, its simply about respect. I know that is unenforceable in law but it is something that is the responsibility of every parent, educator and peer group to make a norm for everyone, especially young men.

Do you mean verbal consent here?

When having sex with a stranger were you always told "SP, I consent to this"?

[eoghan104]

Believing you've consent and having consent aren't the same.

Agree completely and that's why I am saying that consent needs to be defined better.

Do you think consent is black and white?

[Denny Crane]

Agree completely and that's why I am saying that consent needs to be defined better.

Do you think consent is black and white?

I think the issue is more that most people don't understand consent.

[Emmet]

Sure who hasn't made an inappropriate in-joke, but that's not what we're talking about. It's a full conversation, and people are defending it by saying "sure that's what mates talk about". My point if that is the standard level discussion (and I know it is in plenty of groups) it's completely grim. The general conversation looks toxic but my mate thinks it's funny doesn't change the nature of it.

Not denying it's grim as an outsider, especially given the case we've just borne witness to. However is it enough to call someone a rapist for?

My mate thinks its funny absolutely does change the nature of it. Basil Fawlty doing the goosestep is not the same as a nazi doing it. Lads in coppers shouting 'up the ra' is not the same as people on the Falls' Road in 1975 doing it.

Context is an enormous enormous part of communication. The context of a group WhatsApp chat is not easily accessible to people outside of that group.

There's a difference between sending a Frankie Boyle joke to a friend, and to Katie Price. It's the same joke, same words, same sender, same vehicle to send a message, but the message is not the same.

[Emmet]

Did PJ not state that he was too drunk to remember some details?
.

He may well have, that wasn't his defence though.

[eoghan104]

I think the issue is more that most people don't understand consent.

Do you understand it to a stage where you can define it in black and white terms?

Serious question I would love to have it defined.

[eoghan104]

And are you arrogant enough to think your definition of consent is correct and should be shared by everyone? I know SP is.

[Strewelpeter]

Do you mean verbal consent here?

When having sex with a stranger were you always told "SP, I consent to this"?

Yeah, I usually had a contract with NDA signed

Not denying it's grim as an outsider, especially given the case we've just borne witness to. However is it enough to call someone a rapist for?

In fairness I accept that using the word rapist is harsh but I'm struggling to reach for a better word given that I do not accept there was consent in this case and these lads were well beyond what I'd describe as being a 'bit rapey'.
Again these are opinions that I'm not looking for anyone to agree with.

I think the difference here is between thinking that we need a better definition of consent and understanding that all that is needed is for young men to consider the situation and ask themselves the question.

While I agree with Denny that people don't really understand consent I'd also say that its a fairly simple concept and people don't need to use more than a bit of cop on.

[Denny Crane]

Do you understand it to a stage where you can define it in black and white terms?

Serious question I would love to have it defined.

Thames police made a handy video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZwvrxVavnQ

Agree completely

Do you get it though? I've seen loads of people write along the lines, that the lads thought they had consent so it was grand.

[TheJiggaman]

For an office of about 15 people, what way would you run a Masters competition?

Something like a fiver a person and everyone gets two players each randomly. Best score wins?

Or would you combine both players' scores or something?

[Denny Crane]

Not denying it's grim as an outsider, especially given the case we've just borne witness to. However is it enough to call someone a rapist for?

Are you mixing me up with SP? I said it was grim. And it's not grim just because I'm an outsider.

Not denying it's grim as an outsider, especially given the case we've just borne witness to. However is it enough to call someone a rapist for?

My mate thinks its funny absolutely does change the nature of it. Basil Fawlty doing the goosestep is not the same as a nazi doing it. Lads in coppers shouting 'up the ra' is not the same as people on the Falls' Road in 1975 doing it.

Context is an enormous enormous part of communication. The context of a group WhatsApp chat is not easily accessible to people outside of that group.

There's a difference between sending a Frankie Boyle joke to a friend, and to Katie Price. It's the same joke, same words, same sender, same vehicle to send a message, but the message is not the same.

But that's not what we're talking about is it. Is it grand for Trump to talk about grabbing them by the pussy if he does it with celebrity friends?

[Strewelpeter]

And are you arrogant enough to think your definition of consent is correct and should be shared by everyone? I know SP is.

Its pretty simple... and actually the etymology of the word consent is very illuminating in this context:

consent

noun: consent; plural noun: consents
1.
permission for something to happen or agreement to do something.
"no change may be made without the consent of all the partners"
Origin

Middle English: from Old French consente (noun), consentir (verb), from Latin consentire, from con- ‘together’ + sentire ‘feel’.

[Guest]

That cretin coppinger is having a I believe her protest st the spire in a couple of mins. Looking for valueolunteets in ulster shirts who will sing stand up for the ulster men with me.

[DeadParrot]

He may well have, that wasn't his defence though.

I avoided the trial by media pretty much but from memory wasn't the first line of defense it didn't happen, then she die have sex but not with me, then i was involved but not in a threesome, then yeah it was a threesome and all parties were onboard?

The whole thing fucking stinks. Admittedly I am not party to all the facts but
I was quite surprised with how this has gone.

/*wild speculation
From a pure guess work standpoint, I'd say she had second thoughts and tried to stop things during the act or when person number 3 came along.
There's a not so subtle difference in being the object of adoration and being an object. */

[DeadParrot]

That cretin coppinger is having a I believe her protest st the spire in a couple of mins. Looking for valueolunteets in ulster shirts who will sing stand up for the ulster men with me.

atrocious spelling aside, what exactly is wrong with protesting?

Feels vs Reals works both ways here; would you have the same level of vitriol for, I dunno, Falun Gong protests? Or closer to home, an anti brexit protest?
I mean neither actually does anything, and neither really will this.

[NuckChorris]

Computer expert asked his opinion on the future of computers/internet in 1999. Not bad!!!!

[Hectorjelly]

That was accurate.

On the rape case, one of the defendants apologised for his behaviour and stated that he didn't think the complainant had been lying. I think that is very telling, and both sides should learn something from that. No matter what verdict was reached this isn't a time for cheerleading. There are no winners in this, just degrees of losing.

Sickpuppy your beliefs are getting more deranged. I thought married life is supposed to mellow people out?

[Guest]

atrocious spelling aside, what exactly is wrong with protesting?

Feels vs Reals works both ways here; would you have the same level of vitriol for, I dunno, Falun Gong protests? Or closer to home, an anti brexit protest?
I mean neither actually does anything, and neither really will this.

Vitorol Jesus man get real. The lads were found not guilty and the girl is allowed remain anonymous. Yet the protest is on how she was treated. In town yesterday just after my lunch some cunts had big posters of dismembered foetus es. I should not have that shoved in my face felt like clattering the guy but then in the interest of equality should have battered the woman too I done neither.

[Guest]

That was accurate.

On the rape case, one of the defendants apologised for his behaviour and stated that he didn't think the complainant had been lying. I think that is very telling, and both sides should learn something from that. No matter what verdict was reached this isn't a time for cheerleading. There are no winners in this, just degrees of losing.

Sickpuppy your beliefs are getting more deranged. I thought married life is supposed to mellow people out?

Go fuck yourself you pontificating gimp not married yet. I’m very mellow as that other reptile said what’s wrong with a counter protest

[Emmet]

On the rape case, one of the defendants apologised for his behaviour and stated that he didn't think the complainant had been lying. I think that is very telling, and both sides should learn something from that. No matter what verdict was reached this isn't a time for cheerleading. There are no winners in this, just degrees of losing.

Absolutely spot on.

[eoghan104]

That was accurate.

On the rape case, one of the defendants apologised for his behaviour and stated that he didn't think the complainant had been lying. I think that is very telling, and both sides should learn something from that. No matter what verdict was reached this isn't a time for cheerleading. There are no winners in this, just degrees of losing.

Sickpuppy your beliefs are getting more deranged. I thought married life is supposed to mellow people out?

I didn't hear that! Is that not an admission of guilt? Any idea which one said it or where?

Or is it more speculation?

[jack90210]

Once again these professional protesters hitching their wagon onto this to try and dominate the narrative. Where is the protest about the four men who have committed no crime having their reputations ruined with seemingly no road for damages or compensation.

Seems to be plenty of people who have no respect for due process of trials. Seem perfectly happy that a rogue prosecutor could effectively ruin anyone by bringing cases that can't be proved but inflict severe reputational damage.

[Denny Crane]

Vitorol Jesus man get real. The lads were found not guilty and the girl is allowed remain anonymous. Yet the protest is on how she was treated.

She wasn't anonymous though. And she spent far more time on the stand than the actual accused.

I really don't get it. Do people think girls up and down the country are getting their insides forensically examined and being questioned in Garda stations so they can falsely accuse people?

[Emmet]

I didn't hear that! Is that not an admission of guilt? Any idea which one said it or where?

Or is it more speculation?

It was in Olding's statement that was read out afterwards.

No its not an admission of guilt, they didn't deny any contact, they maintained what happened was consensual.

[Emmet]

Are you mixing me up with SP? I said it was grim. And it's not grim just because I'm an outsider.

You are ignoring the context. Or at the very least not controlling for it. To you their brash shite is grim, to others its brash shite, and to them we can only guess.

[Hitchhiker's Guide To...]

...

[Silver-Tiger]

What's known at the best weekly quiz in Dublin town?

[eoghan104]

It was in Olding's statement that was read out afterwards.

No its not an admission of guilt, they didn't deny any contact, they maintained what happened was consensual.

"“I am sorry for the hurt that was caused to the complainant.

“It was never my intention to cause any upset to anyone on that night.

“I don’t agree with her perception of events, and I maintain that everything that happened that evening was consensual.”

This is what he said. Very different to "she was not lying".

I think it is a very fair statement.

[ArmaniJeans]

Where is the protest about the four men who have committed no crime having their reputations ruined with seemingly no road for damages or compensation.

Start one yourself - or if you can't be bothered then fair enough but it's not a reason to have a pop at those who organise a protest that you just happen to disagree with.

[Closed_Account]

I still think his apology is pretty telling.

[Raoul Duke III]

Once again these professional protesters hitching their wagon onto this to try and dominate the narrative. Where is the protest about the four men who have committed no crime having their reputations ruined with seemingly no road for damages or compensation.

Seems to be plenty of people who have no respect for due process of trials. Seem perfectly happy that a rogue prosecutor could effectively ruin anyone by bringing cases that can't be proved but inflict severe reputational damage.

Massively surprised you didn't get the words 'Robert' and 'Mueller' into this.

[Hectorjelly]

Jack has an unerring ability to always have the most extreme yet completely half baked position on any topic. Jack what did you think about the ending of the Sopranos?

[Raoul Duke III]

We all believe certain things that are untrue but we manage to rationalise our beliefs such that we think they are true.

It's part of what makes us human, the actors in this case included.

Thus: the complainant may have related untrue things while believing them to be true....that doesn't make her a liar per se.

[LuckyLloyd]

Did PJ not state that he was too drunk to remember some details?

Thats not what I'm saying though, if I'd been on that jury I probably have voted not guilty.
I'm saying that, for me, there are degrees of rape and my opinion of what constitutes , lets call it rapey behaviour, is very much broader. I'd set the bar very low: if you don't have explicit consent then you are likely over the line. That's an opinion that I don't think represents anything to do with my age or my innocence about the way young people behave, its simply about respect. I know that is unenforceable in law but it is something that is the responsibility of every parent, educator and peer group to make a norm for everyone, especially young men.

It’s unenforceable in law because it’s not “rape”, a criminal act defined in law.

What’s clear is that people want the current definition of rape broadened and / or the burden of proof lowered. That’s what this #ibelieveher nonsense is about. Ye don’t have my vote.

[DeadParrot]

Massively surprised you didn't get the words 'Robert' and 'Mueller' into this.

Counting the minutes till George Soros raises his head