Bad beat/Moaning/Venting thread - Mammy told me not to come.

[eamonhonda]

Imagine the outrage if an "I believe him" poster went up this weekend at the rugby

[Guest]

Imagine the outrage if an "I believe him" poster went up this weekend at the rugby

Why imagine,surely someone from here is going to the game,make it so
If you end up getting doxxed on Twitter you can get off the hook by saying you were referring to Richard Satchwell

[Frank Gibney]

Sure you get fucked on proper cocktails after two or three of them. My problem with it is I'd drink far more than 4 in the two hours and keel over.



Rent cap applies to the apartment, you'd be paying 4% more than the other dude max.

Happy international wimmens day

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drGx7JkFSp4

[Ed]

Imagine the outrage if an "I believe him" poster went up this weekend at the rugby

Do you believe him?

[eamonhonda]

Do you believe him?

I haven't a clue if I'm honest. An impossible one for juror to call unless they have more to go on than what's reported.

[pokerhand]

Not much of a worst start to a day where the boss set up a 8.30am meeting and cancels it 10 mins before the meeting starts. If he pulls the same shit tomorrow, there will be some strong words...

Meetings never should be scheduled before 10am ever!

[Ed]

I haven't a clue if I'm honest. An impossible one for juror to call unless they have more to go on than what's reported.

Fair enough, my main takeaway from it all was it being a good example of why a lot people don't report sexual assault given how much time she was forced to spend on the stand being effectively told she asked for it

[eoghan104]

Fair enough, my main takeaway from it all was it being a good example of why a lot people don't report sexual assault given how much time she was forced to spend on the stand being effectively told she asked for it

What is the alternative to grilling rape victims in court?

In my opinion it is a necessary evil.

In the PJ case I agree with Eamo. Impossible to know for sure. It is very possible that she thinks what happened constitutes rape and the lads don't. Consent is a difficult thing to establish 100%.

[Raoul Duke III]

Fair enough, my main takeaway from it all was it being a good example of why a lot people don't report sexual assault given how much time she was forced to spend on the stand being effectively told she asked for it

I heard something very interesting and highly relevant to this case (from a legal professional) last week.

It would certainly colour opinion.

[dobby]

Fair enough, my main takeaway from it all was it being a good example of why a lot people don't report sexual assault given how much time she was forced to spend on the stand being effectively told she asked for it

What's the alternative? Just believe every person that accuses someone of rape?

[Keane]

I heard something very interesting and highly relevant to this case (from a legal professional) last week.

It would certainly colour opinion.

u ok hun xx

[Ed]

I'm not sure what the appropriate alternative is but would argue that if i accused someone of punching me, I wouldn't be subjected to the same level of grilling that the woman in this case seemed to have been.

[eoghan104]

I'm not sure what the appropriate alternative is but would argue that if i accused someone of punching me, I wouldn't be subjected to the same level of grilling that the woman in this case seemed to have been.

Not an even remotely fair comparison.

[eamonhonda]

Fair enough, my main takeaway from it all was it being a good example of why a lot people don't report sexual assault given how much time she was forced to spend on the stand being effectively told she asked for it

100 percent agree, must be awful, and for any new victims following this, how would you put yourself forward to go through it.

Only thing is, what's the alternative?

[eoghan104]

I'm not sure what the appropriate alternative is but would argue that if i accused someone of punching me, I wouldn't be subjected to the same level of grilling that the woman in this case seemed to have been.

for example, If you said " I was walking home last night and Eoghan104 punched me, I have no physical evidence of this I can just prove we were in the same place" there wouldn't even be a trial.

[ionapaul]

I'm not sure what the appropriate alternative is but would argue that if i accused someone of punching me, I wouldn't be subjected to the same level of grilling that the woman in this case seemed to have been.

You might be if the outcome of you being taken at your word would be to ruin the puncher's life though, right?

Not commenting on this particular case by the way, haven't spent much time following the trial reports.

Edited to say that eoghan's swifter replies outline the point better than I did

[Ed]

Not an even remotely fair comparison.

Why not, obviously anecdotal but beyond being asked if i'd said something or done something to the person to cause them to punch me, I don't think i'd get the same degree of "how much did you have to drink that night?", "were you out looking for a fight?", "what were you wearing?" that rape victims get

[Keane]

How do they handle it when a child accuses an adult of molesting them? Presume they don't put the child through five days of aggressive cross-examination by defence lawyers?

[Ed]

for example, If you said " I was walking home last night and Eoghan104 punched me, I have no physical evidence of this I can just prove we were in the same place" there wouldn't even be a trial.

Would think that's wrong, if you punched me a couple of times in the side of the head and there's no obvious bruises showing because i have quite thick hair, you'd just get away with it? Don't think so

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[Frank Gibney]

I haven't a clue if I'm honest. An impossible one for juror to call unless they have more to go on than what's reported.

Typical rugby jock stuff. Awful sport. Cretins. Rabble.

[eamonhonda]

I'd imagine its somewhere in this grey band all right.

But hold on, did her side of story not say they had sex, and his side said they didn't?

[6starpool]

Why not, obviously anecdotal but beyond being asked if i'd said something or done something to the person to cause them to punch me, I don't think i'd get the same degree of "how much did you have to drink that night?", "were you out looking for a fight?", "what were you wearing?" that rape victims get

A couple of friends of mine were beaten up years ago outside a nightclub. I was there but not close enough to actually be involved and thankfully didn't end up on the receiving end. I had arrived late and had only 2 drinks at the time, but when it went to court I was essentially the main witness and the defence solicitor (or whoever) asked most of those same type of questions, accusing us of all being drunk and starting it, but my witty line on answering even got the judge laughing at one point and he cited the reliability of my evidence a the main reason for conviction.

Obviously a very different scenario than an alleged rape victim given a cross examination about the most harrowing experience of their lives, but that general line of questioning is standard in these type of things.

I can confirm that I did not have to reveal what I was wearing though, but it was probably jeans and a shirt.

[eoghan104]

Would think that's wrong, if you punched me a couple of times in the side of the head and there's no obvious bruises showing because i have quite thick hair, you'd just get away with it? Don't think so

Again not comparable. In your anecdote there seems to be no question of the fact I did punch you.

Here is a better example... I believe that we were having an organised fight that we both consented to, I then punched you in the face. You say that you did not consent to face punching in the fight. I expect you to be grilled here yes. especially if the outcome will ruin my life.

[Ed]

Again not comparable. In your anecdote there seems to be no question of the fact I did punch you.

Here is a better example... I believe that we were having an organised fight that we both consented to, I then punched you in the face. You say that you did not consent to face punching in the fight. I expect you to be grilled here yes. especially if the outcome will ruin my life.

But I didn't consent? Now what, i have to prove that i didn't.

fwiw, i do get that people get wrongly accused and that we all should have recourse to be able to defend ourselves. I'm just of the opinion that the nature with which someone who more than likely has gone through a horrific experience (can't imagine that many people would argue that most people who go as far as reporting rape aren't telling the truth) is being forced to relive it in view of an audience while continually being blamed for it is clearly a significant deterrent for people to report these crimes.

[Denny Crane]

What's the alternative? Just believe every person that accuses someone of rape?

A fraction of serious sexual assaults are reported, and even less prosecuted. I don't get why there's so much more concern about false accusations. Especially when someone who reports a case goes through such an ordeal.

[eoghan104]

But I didn't consent? Now what, i have to prove that i didn't.

fwiw, i do get that people get wrongly accused and that we all should have recourse to be able to defend ourselves. I'm just of the opinion that the nature with which someone who more than likely has gone through a horrific experience (can't imagine that many people would argue that most people who go as far as reporting rape aren't telling the truth) is being forced to relive it in view of an audience while continually being blamed for it is clearly a significant deterrent for people to report these crimes.

Unfortunately yes you do have to prove it.

That is the burden of proof an is the lesser of two evils.

[Keane]

Unfortunately yes you do have to prove it.

That is the burden of proof an is the lesser of two evils.

Why would the burden be to prove lack of consent? That seems like it means people consenting to having sex with each other is the default position.

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[Solksjaer!]

I'd like to sue Arthur Guinness for many instances of unwanted sex

[Strewelpeter]

Had been trying to avoid this case but I did read the reports of Jackon's evidence and it sounded to me like he was a terrible defence witness.

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[eoghan104]

So I can go round punching people in the face and they have to prove that I didn't have consent?

Why are we talking about punching in the face still! You are twisting my words to suit your argument but yes if I punch you you have to prove it. If I rape you, you also have to prove it.

Why does that confuse you? As Hitch said this is the most basic legal requirement.

[eoghan104]

So I can go round punching people in the face and they have to prove that I didn't have consent?

Why are we talking about punching in the face still! You are twisting my words to suit your argument but yes if I punch you you have to prove it. If I rape you, you also have to prove it.

Why does that confuse you? As Hitch said this is the most basic legal requirement.

[Keane]

Burden of proof is always on the prosecution, thats like the most fundamental feature of the legal system in every criminal case no matter what the potential crime. You'd hardly suggest changing that cornerstone of the system?!

If someone takes my keys off my desk and drives off and wraps my car around a tree, I call the guards and say my car was stolen - is the court case really going to involve me proving I didn't give my permission for a randomer to take my car?

Surely there is a social norm that strangers are not allowed to take my car without being given permission and car thieves have no reason to think they can pretend to have been given it and get off because I can't prove I didn't?

[Denny Crane]

Why are we talking about punching in the face still! You are twisting my words to suit your argument but yes if I punch you you have to prove it. If I rape you, you also have to prove it.

Why does that confuse you? As Hitch said this is the most basic legal requirement.

I'm just perplexed why you have so much more concern about the accused than the alleged victim? It seems like one of the few (if any?) crimes where that seems to happen?

[ArmaniJeans]

If someone takes my keys off my desk and drives off and wraps my car around a tree, I call the guards and say my car was stolen - is the court case really going to involve me proving I didn't give my permission for a randomer to take my car?

Surely there is a social norm that strangers are not allowed to take my car without being given permission and car thieves have no reason to think they can pretend to have been given it and get off because I can't prove I didn't?

The case could happen that way, the 'with permission' defence has been used in theft cases.
Though in your outlined case it would be a terrible defence as assuming you are telling the truth your 'I've never met this person, never gave them my keys' evidence couldn't be cracked in the slightest by the defence.

[eoghan104]

I'm just perplexed why you have so much more concern about the accused than the alleged victim? It seems like one of the few (if any?) crimes where that seems to happen?

Who said I did?!

I have a lot of concern for victims and I agree that this case will have negative effects on people coming forward in the future.

That doesn't change the fact that there is no easy alternative to grilling the victim. Have you got one?

[dobby]

A fraction of serious sexual assaults are reported, and even less prosecuted. I don't get why there's so much more concern about false accusations. Especially when someone who reports a case goes through such an ordeal.

It's not a concern about false accusations. Don't we all have the right of innocence until proven otherwise?

I actually think the lads are guilty but it's up to this woman and her legal team to prove that we can't just assume she's telling the truth and lock them up.

[eoghan104]

If someone takes my keys off my desk and drives off and wraps my car around a tree, I call the guards and say my car was stolen - is the court case really going to involve me proving I didn't give my permission for a randomer to take my car?

Surely there is a social norm that strangers are not allowed to take my car without being given permission and car thieves have no reason to think they can pretend to have been given it and get off because I can't prove I didn't?

How have we got to such ridiculous arguments!

[Strewelpeter]

If someone takes my keys off my desk and drives off and wraps my car around a tree, I call the guards and say my car was stolen - is the court case really going to involve me proving I didn't give my permission for a randomer to take my car?

Surely there is a social norm that strangers are not allowed to take my car without being given permission and car thieves have no reason to think they can pretend to have been given it and get off because I can't prove I didn't?

The difficulty comes if he says you gave him the keys, and maybe you let lots of other people drive your car previously. Now you are going to have to prove you didn't.

[Keane]

The case could happen that way, the 'with permission' defence has been used in theft cases.
Though in your outlined case it would be a terrible defence as assuming you are telling the truth your 'I've never met this person, never gave them my keys' evidence couldn't be cracked in the slightest by the defence.

Doesn't that imply that the burden is on the defence to prove permission was given?

An accusation of rape has been made, which involves sex and consent elements. There seem to be ways to prove this to be untrue - prove the accused wasn't in the same country, show that they have no willy etc.

If your defence is 'we had sex, but there was consent', it seems like you are actively adopting the burden of proving the consent. This would seem to reasonably apply in situations where permission is not assumed as a matter of social convention.

[Keane]

How have we got to such ridiculous arguments!

It's a fairly simple analogy

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[Keane]

These cases tend to be vastly more covered by the media so there tends to be more opinions on them, plus as there's always a dispute as to whether something happened (which isn't the case with most other crimes), then there's going to be more differences of opinions.

It really does seem like it would be better if these cases weren't tried so openly in the media though. Instead maybe just let the courtcase happen and then report on summary of what happened afterwards - that would be a lot better for the victim too, as that girl seems to have suffered hugely by this case whatever the outcome. But no-one would be talking about it if there wasn't 20 news articles a day on the topic.

Yeah the blanket coverage of it is dreadful. It's been impossible to avoid.

[ArmaniJeans]

Doesn't that imply that the burden is on the defence to prove permission was given?

An accusation of rape has been made, which involves sex and consent elements. There seem to be ways to prove this to be untrue - prove the accused wasn't in the same country, show that they have no willy etc.

If your defence is 'we had sex, but there was consent', it seems like you are actively adopting the burden of proving the consent.

It can seem that way from reading the reports. However the judge will emphasise in his summing up that the burden of proof ultimately rests with the prosecution.
Perhaps our system is better suited to "it wasn't me" cases rather than "there was no crime" defences.

[Tar.Aldarion]

Yeah the blanket coverage of it is dreadful. It's been impossible to avoid.

I'm sitting here not knowing wtf you are all talking about. However it does remind me of a dave chapelle skit on consent

https://vimeo.com/183089808

[Guest]

Yeah the blanket coverage of it is dreadful. It's been impossible to avoid.

You think it’s bad now wait till the verdict, guilty or not guilty there is a solid few weeks of outrage ,stupid hashtags and tweet storms about all men are part of the patriarchal rape culture conspiracy waiting to be unleashed .

[Frank Gibney]

What was the gag Tom?

[Keane]

It can seem that way from reading the reports. However the judge will emphasise in his summing up that the burden of proof ultimately rests with the prosecution.
Perhaps our system is better suited to "it wasn't me" cases rather than "there was no crime" defences.

It's an interesting one despite being an uneasy topic. It does seem like lack of consent is taken for granted for other types of accusation in a way that doesn't apply here, whether that's codified in the legal system or just baked into normal attitudes that would exist amongst jurors etc.

Maybe it's an angle more defences should work for thieves etc!

[ionapaul]

It might be easier to just drop all of the 'what if it was a punch instead of a rape' and 'what if it was a stolen car instead of a rape' as I think it just complicates this discussion.

Obviously everyone has or should have the deepest compassion for anyone who was sexually assaulted and nothing for the guilty party other than anger and disgust, but right now surely this is still an innocent until proven guilty situation, seems like a 'he said she said' until definite hard evidence is introduced and the jury reaches a decision?

Keane, the peculiarities regarding determining iron-clad consent in these situations are definitely worth thinking about further and society probably needs to do so much more. Just like using condoms maybe has become ubiquitous when it comes to random sexual encounters (I hope!) maybe society can move towards some kind of easily introduced, non-mood-killing way of recording or assessing consent immediately prior, during and after sexual encounters? Can't think of any such ways myself at short notice but is it something that is needed to eliminate all 'he thought he had the go-ahead, she was actually giving strong 'stay away' vibes' situations that occur?

[eamonhonda]

You think it’s bad now wait till the verdict, guilty or not guilty there is a solid few weeks of outrage ,stupid hashtags and tweet storms about all men are part of the patriarchal rape culture conspiracy waiting to be unleashed .

To be fair dump social media and you will avoid majority of this. Easily done

[dobby]

Doesn't that imply that the burden is on the defence to prove permission was given?

An accusation of rape has been made, which involves sex and consent elements. There seem to be ways to prove this to be untrue - prove the accused wasn't in the same country, show that they have no willy etc.

If your defence is 'we had sex, but there was consent', it seems like you are actively adopting the burden of proving the consent. This would seem to reasonably apply in situations where permission is not assumed as a matter of social convention.

[Guest]

To be fair dump social media and you will avoid majority of this. Easily done

Don’t have any social media accounts (though I could stop looking at some twitter accounts)
This will be all over the papers and current affairs shows too

[Frank Gibney]

Don’t have any social media accounts (

...except here.

[Guest]

...except here.

This isn’t the same shite though

[Frank Gibney]

apples and a similar sort of apples m8
Any tea?

[MrsFlushdraw]

Spent a few hours at Nuclear Medicine today at the local hospital. I was having a laugh about the fact my appointment letter said to bring a cheese and ham sandwich as PART of the examination. Got a good giggle from it.

Went long, had a cannular put in, then had to do a treadmill test and when I was jogging they injected the radio isotope.
After that I was asked to go to the little waiting room and have my food. Which after being fasting from the night before, was a welcome thing.

Afterwards I had a test where I lay on a bed with arms above head, strapped to it and told to be very very still for 15 mins while the machine took loads of pictures of my heart.
It is a two-part test and at the end was given an appointment for Tuesday and this time it said a Cheese and Ham sandwich with butter! crazy!

On the way home I get a FB message from a local guy and he said it was to do with absorption of the isotopes. I came home and googled it.

http://www.ruh.nhs.uk/patients/services/clinical_depts/nuclear_medicine/documents/patient_leaflets/Adult_Heart_Myo_1_day.pdf

Sure enough, they need the fatty food for it. Some countries say a sausage roll.
It's a funny old world!